A bit off topic but I'm not sure you drop him based on one really poor game. Remember he played his best career game the week before v Geelong.

That may be your ceiling. Jones has reached the level he always should have.

So you always saw him as being capable of an A-grade year like last year? And the serious conversation right now that is an A-grade player?

This site does have a search function you know...

So you always saw him as being capable of an A-grade year like last year? And the serious conversation right now that is an A-grade player?

This site does have a search function you know...

I was very disappointed in him early days, as I stated ad nauseum. It got to the point that his leap in improvement WAS indeed a surprise.

But I having seen him play as a junior, advocating we draft him at the time, and subsequently recruiting him as a first rounder, I don't consider his B+ status some miraculous performance. He's reached a level that was commensurate with his talent as a junior. His under-performing in the early years was probably more baffling, but somewhat the norm at this club.

He's not A-grade in my eyes, but I wouldn't bother debating it. If some do fair enough.

Edited July 24, 201311 yr by Ben-Hur

I was very disappointed in him early days, as I stated ad nauseum. It got to the point that his leap in improvement WAS indeed a surprise.

But I having seen him play as a junior, advocating we draft him at the time, and subsequently recruiting him as a first rounder, I don't consider his B+ status some miraculous performance. He's reached a level that was commensurate with his talent as a junior. His under-performing in the early years was probably more baffling, but somewhat the norm at this club.

He's not A-grade in my eyes, but I wouldn't bother debating it. If some do fair enough.

The lengths that you go to to disagree with me are astounding.

Thankyou for caring so much.

He wouldn't be right if he agreed with you, he'd just be agreeing with you.

you can kinda look at the pro's list and i think that makes the decision pretty easy

Toumpas:

*quick

*elite skills

*leader

*already played senior footy

*balanced out drafting viney well

*considered by many to be nearly on par with whitfield

*huge upside

*Big game player ( just about best on in the SANFL gf the year before drafted )

Wines

*tough inside mid

*solid skills ( not fantastic by any measure

*leader

*ready to go

* already had a more highly rated inside mid in Viney, plus N.jones

*hard to judge the upside of these blokes, he is already good but he might not get drastically better.

in summery imo we made the correct call, i think wines will be a very good player, but i think toumpas will be a better player in time, keep in mind wines is doing well in a much better midfield group, toumpas is in possibly the worst AFL team of all time so it's really unfair to say they are on level footing on that alone, but i would say the game toumpas played against Geelong was as good or better than anything Wines has produced this year.

anyways just my opinion

I agree with you opinion; it is way too premature to judge what one player does in a good (top 8) midfield with another in a bottom 2 midfield.

Just unfair to compare.

Were the boot on the other foot Wines may be deemed the "under-performer", unfairly.

Do you mean - do they know its terrible?

We have had this discussion before about how much weight is given to emotional and personality traits when recruiting teenagers. I think it leads to clubs letting a Darling go until Pick 26.

But away from that argument - I just feel as though the U/18 competition is further and further away from the rigours of AFL footy that Oliver Wines is the exception that proves the rule. He is a big boy with supreme confidence in his talent and his body.

I feel for Toumpas as he is asked to perform in an environment different to a Mayes or a Macrae. We don't have the talented bodies in the midfield that allow a young player to play their role and not much more. There is less easy footy for Toumpas, there is more responsibility.

I am not ready to judge his ceiling. Frankly, I gave Nathan Jones a ceiling and he smashed right through it and I am punch-drunk from the plumage and the experience.

Toumpas might or might not - but that question won't be answered for some time yet.

rpfc, I think we've had the conversation about coaches rather than kids, but I might well have forgotten.

Either way, I think that the data needs to be used for what it says reliably and validly. I have no idea what it said about darling and neither do you. To suggest that we used data to stay away from darling when neither of us know what it says, who at melbourne looked at it if anyone at all, what they know about psych testing etc is far fetched.

I'll say it again: the best single predictor for performance in a job - any job - is IQ. IQ + relevant personality predicts more about job performance than other measure - including interviews, bio-data, job trials, assessment centres etc. This is settled. No-one is arguing.

I have faith in Jimmy T. More than i do in Trengove.

The lengths that you go to to disagree with me are astounding.

Thankyou for caring so much.

I don't know WTF you're talking about.

I rarely read you and previously had you on ignore. No disrespect, but I wouldn't read you for footy content.

In almost any other club JT would have good players around him.

He probably would not have even played a game yet at the top ten clubs.

Again we are expecting miracles from a kid in his first year.

I will try and reserve my judgment till well into 2014.

He looked like he was about to burst into tears, certainly an emotional lad is Jim.

But, if I ever had a game like that, I'd probably be feeling the same.

From an observation point of view though, Toumpas shouldn't be playing AFL, he isn't up to it and needs to go back to Casey for the rest of the year.

There is little doubt that the kid has all the tools to make it further down the track in AFL, but at present he is a very long way away from being an AFL player.

Hopefully Craig sends him back to Casey and just let's Jimmy play without pressure and continue to improve his football.

One thing in my opinion that has worked against Toumpas this year is that he has a very weak core - probably due to his hip injury and limited pre-season.

So, next year we should see a much improved player, providing we can get a pre-season into him.

He isn't up to it?

He was one of if not the best player against Geelong in HORRID conditions.

The kid just struggled to play in Darwin heat after a tough outing the week before. It's not surprising.

Give him a break, guys. He's played like 10 games ffs.

Edited July 24, 201311 yr by Cudi_420

I don't know WTF you're talking about.

I rarely read you and previously had you on ignore. No disrespect, but I wouldn't read you for footy content.

lol

Do you really care if you disrespect?

And no harm done, I must admit I do find your many incarnations in this community you patronise as a source of mirth more than anything.

No disrespect.

With regard to Jones:

My argument was he looked to have plateaued after a very strong first few years.

He refined his decision making, especially in close, and he has become the player he is today.

Players can sometimes surprise you.

lol

Do you really care if you disrespect?

And no harm done, I must admit I do find your many incarnations in this community you patronise as a source of mirth more than anything.

No disrespect.

With regard to Jones:

My argument was he looked to have plateaued after a very strong first few years.

He refined his decision making, especially in close, and he has become the player he is today.

Players can sometimes surprise you.

Take it easy, China.

I merely responded to a post of yours which I didn't quite agree. Nothing more, nothing less.

But if it hurts your feelings I'll desist in future.

Yes, and B-H is clearly saying:

"I was right, then I changed my mind and I was wrong, but I was right in the beginning, so I am right.

And my opinion now is different to then, but that is also correct.

No disrespect, but I don't respect you."

Yes, and B-H is clearly saying:

"I was right, then I changed my mind and I was wrong, but I was right in the beginning, so I am right.

And my opinion now is different to then, but that is also correct.

No disrespect, but I don't respect you."

WTF are you ?

Yes, and B-H is clearly saying:

"I was right, then I changed my mind and I was wrong, but I was right in the beginning, so I am right.

And my opinion now is different to then, but that is also correct.

No disrespect, but I don't respect you."

Lol, that should be BH's signature.

Here I was thinking BH and rpfc were prett much the same person

Edited July 24, 201311 yr by Django

[quote name="rpfc"

"I feel for Toumpas as he is asked to perform in an environment different to a Mayes or a Macrae. We don't have the talented bodies in the midfield that allow a young player to play their role and not much more. There is less easy footy for Toumpas, there is more responsibility"

I don't know WTF you're talking about.

I rarely read you and previously had you on ignore. No disrespect, but I wouldn't read you for footy content.

No disrepect, but what a [censored].

That's why he should still be at Casey - we fell for the trap of playing him too early (alla Watts, Morton)

Some draftees are ready for AFL and some are not - there's no doubt that playing in a successful team would make it easier.

You have to look long term - Toumpas clearly doesn't have the confidence and should have had time to adjust to vfl before having to adjust to Afl. They should make a rule that every draftee should have to play at least half a season (or full) before being able to play afl. It's worked well for Viney and Hogan.

I think footy is 50% skill and 50% mental (confidence and mind set) ... No joke. (e.g Moloney, Watts, Sylvia)

I said it after Rd 1 - he should not have played.

I would nod with approval if we do not play Pick 2 for a few rounds next year (Hogan is ready to go so is a different story).

I said it after Rd 1 - he should not have played.

I would nod with approval if we do not play Pick 2 for a few rounds next year (Hogan is ready to go so is a different story).

He is ready to go because he has had a whole year at vfl

rpfc, I think we've had the conversation about coaches rather than kids, but I might well have forgotten.

Either way, I think that the data needs to be used for what it says reliably and validly. I have no idea what it said about darling and neither do you. To suggest that we used data to stay away from darling when neither of us know what it says, who at melbourne looked at it if anyone at all, what they know about psych testing etc is far fetched.

I'll say it again: the best single predictor for performance in a job - any job - is IQ. IQ + relevant personality predicts more about job performance than other measure - including interviews, bio-data, job trials, assessment centres etc. This is settled. No-one is arguing.

I have faith in Jimmy T. More than i do in Trengove.

Yes, I remember the coaching argument well. I think conceding that in light of recent events seems a tad trite and pointless at the minute...

I just don't like talking to people 'in the know' who dismiss an 18 year old because of minor personality issues and/or mistakes.

You know when you're a shite team when we are judging a first year player in 7ish games?. As OD he wouldn't be in a top side but yet again we expect kids to come in and dominate. Wines has a mid field around him, we have N.Jones. Come on fellas, it's not fair on Toumpas and it's stupid to think a 18-19 year old is going to play consistent football. Our leadership group can't even do that let alone a rookie.

Watts recently admitted that his early debut against Collingwood sapped his confidence and probably affected his development. That's a big statement to make - learn from your mistakes mfc!

I hate to see a great talented and chirpy guy like Toumpas walk of the ground sapped of confidence like that.

Watts recently admitted that his early debut against Collingwood sapped his confidence and probably affected his development. That's a big statement to make - learn from your mistakes mfc!

I hate to see a great talented and chirpy guy like Toumpas walk of the ground sapped of confidence like that.

I'm sorry but Watts' debut against the Pies in that QB game is nothing close to what occurred to Jimmy T last week. For starters Watts had not played senior football like Toumpas for the previous two seasons, Watts had barely played much TAC cup in the previous season.

Watts was very much a boy against men initiation which was a stupid publicity stunt to draw a crowd to our big showcase game for the year. Jimmy T had been steadily improving as he spent more time in the seniors and didn't look out of place against the Cats. Without being in the inner sanctum I don't know what was wrong with him last week, I am not going to judge him on one game. There could be a number of factors for his poor game.

Lets not panic

Here I was thinking BH and rpfc were prett much the same person

BH turns into rpfc when his hunger is satisfied by a Snickers. Like in the ad.