Was Gutnick right?

[Whispering_Jack 28,004]

There was no policy of anti-Semitism on the part of the Team Vision (Szondy) ticket. A small number of the anti-Joe push did use his race and religion to disparage him but that was certainly not the position of the vast majority and in fact, I know of a number of Jewish supporters who opposed Gutnick.

I met Alotta during the time of the Gutnick-Szondy conflict and there's no way that anyone could say he was anti-Semitic.

[Whispering_Jack 28,004]

And you spend your time potting Caro for not having the facts.

Actually, I'm potting you for not knowing the facts.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,490]

You insinuated it with your earlier. And Alotta was quite reasonable in taking offence. It was an ungracious and ignorant slur of bigotry. Disgraceful

And I have no doubt you have no idea of Club politics. Makes your comment worse.

And if you did have the good grace to have actually read Alottas post before you made your silly "high horse" thread you might have noticed that Alotta said he was on the alternate ticket for the Board. Possibly a decent reason not to vote for Joe.

He didn't say he was on the alternative ticket, he said he voted for the alternative ticket which if you had proper comprehension skills you would have understood. I merely wanted to know the reasons. You say I have no idea of club politics; well enlighten me, I'm all ears.

And no I didn't insinuate anything - I said that the establishment would not have liked having a small Jewish man run their club I made no comment about whether they hated Jewish people or not (or any other group of people). There is a distinction so yes, the high horse comment was apt.

To take the point further I think the power brokers at our club would feel a similar unease at having someone like Eddie McGuire, a Catholic boy from Broady, running the club as well.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Dr. Gonzo

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Actually, I'm potting you for not knowing the facts.

And all you gave was opinion and no fact.

BTW, your validation of Alotta was good form. You would know better than me that the slur made was repugnant.

[Blistering 493]

Am I right in saying that Garry Lyon supported the Szondy ticket?

[Dr. Gonzo 22,490]

I don't have to justify why I voted for the Szondy group.

You have to justify your claim that nearly 7000 of us "couldn't handle a little Jewish man running their Club".

Off you go...we're listening.

You disgust me.

Haha settle petal, I wasn't asking you to justify anything, I am genuinely interested why a vast majority of supporters voted against the Gutnick board considering the good work he did in saving the club and helping to raise its stature in the AFL.

[Alotta 88]

There was no policy of anti-Semitism on the part of the Team Vision (Szondy) ticket. A small number of the anti-Joe push did use his race and religion to disparage him but that was certainly not the position of the vast majority and in fact, I know of a number of Jewish supporters who opposed Gutnick.

I met Alotta during the time of the Gutnick-Szondy conflict and there's no way that anyone could say he was anti-Semitic.

Thanks Jack. I appreciate that.

We are still left with two problems:

- the other 6999 remain slurred

- this ungracious fool either doesn't realise the ugliness of his allegations or doesn't have it in him/her to graciously apologise.

[Retrospective 104]

You insinuated it with your earlier. And Alotta was quite reasonable in taking offence. It was an ungracious and ignorant slur of bigotry. Disgraceful

And I have no doubt you have no idea of Club politics. Makes your comment worse.

And if you did have the good grace to have actually read Alottas post before you made your silly "high horse" thread you might have noticed that Alotta said he was on the alternate ticket for the Board. Possibly a decent reason not to vote for Joe.

65% of the members who voted at the 2001 election preferred the alternative over Joe and his ticket. I was one of them.

Well regardless of your grace and manners I'm not sure what you were reading Rhino....Alotta did not say he was on the alternative ticket at all.....he said he voted for the alternative ticket.... You do tend to have some comprehension issues ....

[Whispering_Jack 28,004]

And all you gave was opinion and no fact.

BTW, your validation of Alotta was good form. You would know better than me that the slur made was repugnant.

What I said was

At the time, we were told that the fact that we came clean on the breach saved us from far more severe sanctions than we otherwise would have received. Gutnick's action was considered at the time to be an example of proper corporate governance.

That came from a leading journalist of the time and I believe it was fact.

I followed the Gutnick/Szondy battle closely at the time and supported Joe. The Gutnick group had a great deal more passion but Szondy had the organisation and contacts and produced a substantial amount of proxies (some in pristine condition) which got it across the line. The irony was that the majority of the rank and file members were in the hall when the result was announced and they were overwhelmingly Gutnick supporters.

There was a brief period of hope before the ineptitude of the Szondy group became apparent. Paul Gardner united the club for a brief period but we fell on tough times financially and Jim Stynes rescued us until his illness struck him and ultimately the club down.

The only reason we should be looking back on this is to learn the lessons of history and then try not to repeat the errors of the past.

Unfortunately, at Melbourne, that seems to be an impossible dream.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

And no I didn't insinuate anything - I said that the establishment would not have liked having a small Jewish man run their club I made no comment about whether they hated Jewish people or not (or any other group of people). There is a distinction so yes, the high horse comment was apt.

To take the point further I think the power brokers at our club would feel a similar unease at having someone like Eddie McGuire, a Catholic boy from Broady, running the club as well.

oh wait, establishment club of rich white boys from the eastern suburbs couldn't handle a little Jewish man running their club, that's right.

You have already had the facts stated about 65% of the members who voted against Gutnick.

How you could so stupidly and loosely make such a disgusting remark?

And compound it with further ignorance about Catholics when there have been a number of them on the Board.

Dishonest creep.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

What I said was

That came from a leading journalist of the time and I believe it was fact.

I followed the Gutnick/Szondy battle closely at the time and supported Joe. The Gutnick group had a great deal more passion but Szondy had the organisation and contacts and produced a substantial amount of proxies (some in pristine condition) which got it across the line. The irony was that the majority of the rank and file members were in the hall when the result was announced and they were overwhelmingly Gutnick supporters.

There was a brief period of hope before the ineptitude of the Szondy group became apparent. Paul Gardner united the club for a brief period but we fell on tough times financially and Jim Stynes rescued us until his illness struck him and ultimately the club down.

The only reason we should be looking back on this is to learn the lessons of history and then try not to repeat the errors of the past.

Unfortunately, at Melbourne, that seems to be an impossible dream.

Was it Caro??

I agree with you that we have blighted for a long time and yes its a seemingly impossible dream!

[Jarka 767]

Have to laugh when people say that Gutnick saved Melbourne. When he came to the club with his money we had absolutely no debt and was operating at a surplus, one of the few Vic clubs in that position. After he, and those who he brought to the board, left we were millions in debt. There is an amazing amount of history being rewritten in this thread.The reality is that at the time he was worth $300m and the $3m $2.7m he donated was basically a tax write off for his companies.

But regardless of what you think of think, one thing is fact without dispute. He, whether directly or indirectly, split this club like it had never been split before, the inhouse fighting continues to this day as this thread proves and he nearly destroyed us. Yeah, thanks Joe.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,490]

You have already had the facts stated about 65% of the members who voted against Gutnick.

How you could so stupidly and loosely make such a disgusting remark?

And compound it with further ignorance about Catholics when there have been a number of them on the Board.

Dishonest creep.

Get a grip you fool - I guess no one is willing to actually comment one WHY 65% of those who voted (not all members) voted against Gutnick. Anyone who doesn't understand the roots of this club lie in the old establishment of the top end of Collins street and the Melbourne Club have little understanding of where the club came from and why it is in the position it's in today. The original comment was said half in jest but you know what they say about those who protest too much.

[Jarka 767]

You have already had the facts stated about 65% of the members who voted against Gutnick.

How you could so stupidly and loosely make such a disgusting remark?

And compound it with further ignorance about Catholics when there have been a number of them on the Board.

Dishonest creep.

I have to agree with you RR, his comments were absolutely disgusting. He accused the MFC of being racist.

[Whispering_Jack 28,004]

Was it Caro??

I did say "a leading journalist" so that rules her out.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Get a grip you fool - I guess no one is willing to actually comment one WHY 65% of those who voted (not all members) voted against Gutnick. Anyone who doesn't understand the roots of this club lie in the old establishment of the top end of Collins street and the Melbourne Club have little understanding of where the club came from and why it is in the position it's in today. The original comment was said half in jest but you know what they say about those who protest too much.

You already shown your ignorance and bigotry enough.

You clearly have no idea about the club now.

There have been enough comments on the concerns over Gutnick in this thread for to piece things together without making religious slurs. Witless and gormless.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Gutnick DID stand up to the media Thank you Joe.

But when you look at what Pratt did at carlton and compare, its hard for me not to think about what Gutnick DIDNT do. He wanted to own and run the club....Pratt just wanted to support it. Pratt understood you have to play dirty to win this game i.e Judd , Gutnick thought he needed to be nice re telling the league our sins.

Had Gutnick stepped in, in the way ONLY HE could have at the time, and helped us into Westpac centre we'd still be hailing him as a hero. He donated big time and once more thank you Jo...but looking at what he gave as a percentage of his wealth, then a lot more have given a lot more and asked for no control over the way the club is run.

He was generous big time but demanded too much in return and above all else he missed a golden oppurtunity by playing small when he could have taken us across the divide. Thats how I see him.

You cannot compare Melbourne with Carlton over the last nearly 50 Yrs... If I was in Pratts shoes at Carlton, I think I'd trust them as well.. they've had the right recipe for many a time.

In Melbournes case, why is it do you all think, that you don't trust the management now??? Its imo, because of the last 45 + Yrs. not because of this group. it s the history that is causing the panic.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,490]

You already shown your ignorance and bigotry enough.

You clearly have no idea about the club now.

There have been enough comments on the concerns over Gutnick in this thread for to piece things together without making religious slurs. Witless and gormless.

Haha ignorance and bigotry? Hmm no I don't think so, nothing close to it actually.

There's been a couple of mentions in this thread about the salary cap issues and some have said the club became divided and went into debt, but there are no specifics it's all just generalisations - you clearly seem to know everything on the subject so please enlighten me. All I am asking is for the reasons why he was seen as so divisive and why his board was voted out so overwhelmingly. Unfortunately no one seems able to provide any answers to that.

[Alotta 88]

Unfortunately you can't justify your claim that "we couldn't handle a little Jewish man running (our) club".

You are an ignorant racist bigot.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Alotta

[Binmans PA 26,227]

It seemed to me to be a flippant remark from the Doctor that has been taken far too seriously. The inference you've taken may well have been intended, but as WJ has noted, there were indeed pockets of anti-semitism in the anti-Gutnick clan at the time.

Further, the question still hasn't been answered. Can anyone provide us with an approximate outline of why people voted Szondy over Gutnick? Was it the mere connections and power alluded to by WJ or something more? Thank you.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,490]

It seemed to me to be a flippant remark from the Doctor that has been taken far too seriously. The inference you've taken may well have been intended, but as WJ has noted, there were indeed pockets of anti-semitism in the anti-Gutnick clan at the time.

Further, the question still hasn't been answered. Can anyone provide us with an approximate outline of why people voted Szondy over Gutnick? Was it the mere connections and power alluded to by WJ or something more? Thank you.

Thank you Adam, the comment was more about the "old boys club" rather than calling anyone anti-Semitic. As I said previously if that was what people took out of it then I apologise but that was not the intention.

I also would genuinely like to know the politics behind why Gutnick was voted out as it seems he was very divisive (and I recall that being the case at the time) yet no one has been able to articulate any specific reasons why he was so opposed (and as stated was overwhelmingly voted out). The salary cap/draft penalties is one thing but he didn't preside over the admin which actually made these breaches only uncovered them and notifies the AFL.

[jackaub 1,402]

I don't Blame Schwab for his conduct under Gutnick...He was thrown to the wolves, many of our top players were being paid overs.

His Red & Blue Print is another matter & has put us back a decade, maybe more....

G Lyon was a fool for stopping him walking after 186.

I would like to see that bought up on a monday night

WYL I think you will be waiting a long long time for Garry to admit his role behind the scenes with the ex boys club including the CS saga

[jnrmac 19,059]

And you of course donated $2.7m to the MFC and was one of the main people rallying people in opposing the merger.

I think I recall your posts back then, telling us to refuse his money, which saved the club at the time and urging everyone to accept the merger.

You are obviously a fan of the fine job Szondy did for this club, nearly destroying it.

Unbelievable!!!!!

Joe was in it for Joe. Nothing else. $2.7m (and BTW he promised $3m) was cheap pr for him. He was trying to raise money for diamond mines and other projects. You no doubt were on your knees begging for his money and licking his boots.

It cost the club a lot more both short term and long term. Not to mention our lack of 200+ game leaders that are not here because we missed out on top draft picks.

He was a disaster for our club. Oh and where is he now?? I reckon he has been to a total of 10 games in his life.

You probably liked Geoffrey Edelston as well..

[Jarka 767]

It seemed to me to be a flippant remark from the Doctor that has been taken far too seriously. The inference you've taken may well have been intended, but as WJ has noted, there were indeed pockets of anti-semitism in the anti-Gutnick clan at the time.

Further, the question still hasn't been answered. Can anyone provide us with an approximate outline of why people voted Szondy over Gutnick? Was it the mere connections and power alluded to by WJ or something more? Thank you.

Racists have always hidden behind these type of excuses. It was only a joke/flippant comment,unfortunately he's exposed himself for what he really is.

The problem with Gutnick was that everyone who he introduced to the board eventually turned against him.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,490]

Racists have always hidden behind these type of excuses. It was only a joke/flippant comment,unfortunately he's exposed himself for what he really is.

The problem with Gutnick was that everyone who he introduced to the board eventually turned against him.

Righteo exactly who was I being racist towards and in what way? I made a comment about the demographics of the clubs powerbrokers, in no way was I racist or a bigot or whatever other slurs have been made against me in this thread (such as being told multiple times that I am disgusting). Some of you guys really need to get your hand off it.

Meanwhile no one has yet explained exactly why Gutnick was such a divisive figure or why he was voted out so overwhelmingly assuming the 65% figure is correct. What did he/his admin do that saw him turfed out so emphatically by the members? As far as his public persona was concerned I thought he was great for the club and actually stood up for us to the AFL and other clubs and didn't let us get kicked around which has been the norm since he left.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Dr. Gonzo