Constructive Dissection

[Adam The God 30,110]

Whether you're leaning one way or the other with Neeld and his football department, I was hoping we might be able to constructively debate where improvement in our list might come from. It's sad that I'm already looking to the future for solace this early into the season, but at least we may provide ourselves with reason to be positive. Without simply proffering "sack the coach", "sack the midfield" etc, which areas do we think we might have covered and which positions require strengthening? Will one or two A grade midfielders fix our problems or are there other positional weaknesses that will prevent improvement?

Let's think about the three lines:

Midfielders

Defenders

Forwards

What are 'Landers thoughts on our midfield, past merely "it's rubbish"? Who do we think is showing something and may have the attributes to take it to that next level? What sort of midfield mix do we think is required to not just become competitive at AFL level, but compete with the top teams? Attributes like hardened bodies, experience, speed, endurance, ball winning ability etc. Can we constructively pinpoint three or four mids who may have what it takes? How many of these might we need? Depth should be taken into account too.

With regards to the backline, is it as simple as purely winning clearances, implementing midfield pressure across the ground, adhering to and setting up structures or are some backs not up to it? We know our backline is struggling with the onslaught of opposition inside 50s, but who has the defensive techniques, skills and upside to remain in the back six once we dig ourselves out of this hole?

Arguably the line with the greatest upside is the forward half. How things change, given that only three years ago our defence was donned "The Great Wall". Clark, Dawes and Hogan present promising key position forward stocks. Putting aside the need for midfielders, what are your thoughts on our key position stocks?

The well-worn adage that I keep leaning on during this frankly depressing era is that things can turn around quickly. Ultimately, I hope this discussion can identify that we don't have as far to go as we think.

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

We need a at least one A-Grade midfielder who can read the ball off either ruck, get it on the move, and release others into space with precision handball. Think Black, Priddis, Watson, etc. They don't grow on trees, but are invaluable.

First use mids, who can get it outside with clean disposal is a must.

I think Viney will be more of your bullocking Joel Selwood type, and Toumpas will hopefully be some outside class.

Nathan Jones would need to be our 3rd or 4th best mid playing at his current level, for our group to be at the next level.

That's my take on it anyway.

[stuie 7,374]

My shopping list for the offseason:

1 x A-Grade free agent mid (maybe Daisy?)

1 x Very good 24-27 year old midfielder traded in

2 x Young gun midfielders through draft

1 x Young ruckman through draft

[Ted Lasso 19,269]

We lack a genuine superstar to show the young players what's required, abit like gary ablett is at gold coast

Otherwise the question becomes will Trengove, Grimes, Viney, Toumpas, Jones and co be good enough to win us a premiership

Clark, hogan, and dawes will all be good targets for us, Byrnes and davey aren't going to be in our next top 4 side so we need quick crumming half forwards

3rd and most important is we need to resign james frawley if possible, the bloke does a really good job considering the pressure our lack of midfield puts him under.

Sacking Neeld is tempting because we are going through a very hard patch but odds are it would lead to another untried coach, another period of transition and good chance another sacking.

Watts i think needs to play Forward, he looked good there, he was drafted as a forward and it might be just what he needs to get his confidence up again

[dee-luded 2,959]

Processes...

... get the processes right,,, the Team Value Systems...

Non Negotiables should be set in stone... compete & contest,,, tackling,,, chasing,,, going in when its your turn,,, respecting the jumper & your clubmates by giving all,,, showing courage in fear situations,,, being Inclusive to all,,, Set the Examples OnField

we should not except any player, Not Doing, what should be done. No one, should be above the Team Values

... the Culture is the life, or the death

[Moonshadow 17,675]

Got to get an A+ grade mid 24-26yr old with 100+ games under their belt. OOC, in-contract, RFA.... I don't care. Just get one!

Two would be better

Wouldn't it be good if Nate Jones was our 3rd or 4th best midfielder, instead of our only consistent performer (obviously didn't have a great one on Sunday). No disrespect to him, but I'm sure he'd like to have a couple of mid career, absolute gun mids to share the load with. Imagine him if we had someone of the ilk of Watson AND Pendles by his side. Plenty of other clubs have 2, 3 or more A grade mids. When was the last time we had a real champion midfielder?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Moonshadow

[Grimes is Great 183]

The obvious need is quality mids that can gut run all day.

Another KP Back (backup for Frawley / McDonald) don't think Davis will make it.

Small forwards (Someone such as Saad, Betts, Garlett, Rioli) Bynes will do until someone else steps up or develops.

Key position forwards look ok, could be the spot for Watts along side : Clark, Dawes, Howe, Hogan.

Main focus mids, mids mids.....

[Guest]

We need to do a few things.

1) A high grade outside midfielder. I view this as essential. We have Nathan Jones and Viney looks like he will come on (though something might still 'Melbournize' him). I hope Trengove can find some confidence and form but he is a worry. We need a bloke who, when the ball comes out, knows where to be and can use the pill to greatest effect.

2) A strong bodied inside mid. We have one but he is yet to live up to his potential (Col Sylvia). However, we need a bloke who can throw blokes out of the way like King Kong swats away airplanes. Jonesy is tough and a trier but he doesn't live up to that description. Viney may well become that in the future but he isn't that now nor should he be expected to be.

3) A crumbing forward. We have some younger tall types. We now need someone who can finish off when they don't mark.

4) A backup ruckman. I am guessing Jamar is nearing the end or is uninterested. I think Maxy Gawn is looking cherry ripe to take that job but let's not do what we have done for the last 18 odd years where one bloke carries the entire ruck. Get a solid backup ruckman.

5) New midfield coach. I'm not going to get into a lynch Brian Royal post but mid field pressure at the moment is awful. It has been for two years. We have carried a few blokes in the mid field but we have some, not a lot, but some quality in there. There just appears to be no run and spread at clearances and the blokes trying to extricate the pill have no idea where they are. Blame has to fall somewhere and sadly for Brian, that is him.

[waynewussell 5,187]

We did try to get Monfries and Boak and Caddy and Ray and a few others I imagine. Can't be accused of not trying. The mid-field fix will take three years. Who is going to be around to celebrate? Me for one!

[titan_uranus 24,965]

Good thread, nice work Adam.

A decent midfield seems to require players who can work well with the clearances, and players who can run and spread and deliver the ball with precision inside 50. Not only does Melbourne not have enough of either category, we seem to have attempted to fill these groups with players who are either one or the other (i.e. 'inside' or 'outside'). Thus, we have Jones, Trengove, Grimes, McKenzie, Viney in one group, with Blease, Strauss, Davey, Bail in the other group (amongst others).

To me, Sylvia is the only one who transcends both groups. And this is our problem. Jobe Watson isn't 'inside' or 'outside', he's both. Nor is Judd. Or Pendlebury. Or many other A-grade mids. It's not a problem to have players like Jones in the side, but we seem to always look to either 'inside' or 'outside' players.

Our mids don't appear as fit (aerobically or strength-wise) as others' either. They also seem to operate either in 'offence' mode or 'defence' mode, not being able to combine both.

I don't think our defence is all that bad. It's having to deal with the toughest situation for a defence - the ball just streams in without much pressure, and that makes it hard for us to defend. However, there are issues nonetheless. Tom McDonald looks worse than last year, Frawley isn't rebounding as well as 2010/2011. Too many of our defenders can't kick (Terlich, Nicholson, Grimes, McDonald), which makes us turn it over in the back half too much, and that hurts our defence more than anything.

Our forward line doesn't phase me too much. With Clark, Dawes and Hogan to play tall, resting ruckmen floating down there (Gawn plays FF well enough), and Howe (who should be playing permanently as a marking forward, similarly to Chris Mayne), we probably still lack a crumber, but Davey can play that role, and I think he should be tasked with doing so, and we probably lack defensive pressure, which players like Davey, Jetta and Bail can and do provide.

[waynewussell 5,187]

Tierlich can kick long, it's just that his short kicks are not hitiing the target as we would like.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

My Premiership jigsaw looks a little like this:

FB: ? Frawley Terlich

CHB: Grimes McDonald ?

C: Toumpas ? ?

CHF: Howe Clark Trengove

FF: ? Hogan ?

Foll: Gawn ? Viney

Int: Jones Sylvia ? ?

In other words I'm confident that 13 players have the quality and talent to become MFC premiership players. I certainly haven't given up on Blease and obviously Dawes may well feature but I'm not convinced. Watts hasn't proven to be AFL standard in any one position over his 5 years. I'm concerned. Garland also may take that next step but I'm unsure. Matt Jones, Evans and Bail all add impressive run and endurance but lack the polish required to be premierhsip players. Perhaps one could emerge as an important role player in a premiership year. Fingers crossed Barry develops and Taggert and Tynan remain in the hopeful basket. I don't rate Strauss, Dunn or Tapscott. I see Grimes as more a back flanker and Trengove, sadly more of a half forward flanker who rotates onto the ball. I'm going early on Terlich - I think he'll make it. My jigsaw reveals that we need 3 quality midfielders at least. One out and out star that is truly inside and outside and another first dibs inside midfield and another silky skilled outside running machine. We also need a quality ball user out of the back half and one or two genuinely scary small forwards. With the potential on our list I'd hope that at least 3 of my nine holes can be filled internally. I still think we're 6 players short at the moment - and that's a hell of a lot if you consider our patchy recruiting/drafting efforts of the past decade.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Goodvibes

[Grimes is Great 183]

My Premiership jigsaw looks a little like this:

FB: ? Frawley Terlich

CHB: Grimes McDonald ?

C: Toumpas ? ?

CHF: Howe Clark Trengove

FF: ? Hogan ?

Foll: Gawn ? Viney

Int: Jones Sylvia ? ?

In other words I'm confident that 13 players have the quality and talent to become MFC premiership players. I certainly haven't given up on Blease and obviously Dawes may well feature but I'm not convinced. Watts hasn't proven to be AFL standard in any one position over his 5 years. I'm concerned. Garland also may take that next step but I'm unsure. Matt Jones, Evans and Bail all add impressive run and endurance but lack the polish required to be premierhsip players. Perhaps one could emerge as an important role player in a premiership year. Fingers crossed Barry develops and Taggert and Tynan remain in the hopeful basket. I don't rate Strauss, Dunn or Tapscott. I see Grimes as more a back flanker and Trengove, sadly more of a half forward flanker who rotates onto the ball. I'm going early on Terlich - I think he'll make it. My jigsaw reveals that we need 3 quality midfielders at least. One out and out star that is truly inside and outside and another first dibs inside midfield and another silky skilled outside running machine. We also need a quality ball user out of the back half and one or two genuinely scary small forwards. With the potential on our list I'd hope that at least 3 of my nine holes can be filled internally. I still think we're 6 players short at the moment - and that's a hell of a lot if you consider our patchy recruiting/drafting efforts of the past decade.

I agree with most of that, also I think Tappy will make, he has been good lately. Tough and uncompromising.

[Ted Lasso 19,269]

I agree with most of that, also I think Tappy will make, he has been good lately. Tough and uncompromising.

Was really good to see him lay a couple of big bumps!

[Lordweaver 235]

Put Watts in

[Jerry Lundergard 420]

I think Evans has the potential to be one our better midfielders when you consider how much footy he has missed over the last couple of years, and how well he has played since coming into the side. I think he has definite upside.

[Older demon 2,741]

You have asked where can the current list improve? I would add another dimension of whom we may lose as out of contract players at seasons end.

I was concerned when so many older players came on the list and worried that the coach was topping up to win some extra games and shore up his contract after a shocking first year.

We have Tynan, Taggert, Strauss, Kent, Barry, Fitzpatrick and Davis who we have no idea if they can play as we haven't seen much of them for a variety of reasons so it is time to see if they can play. I would go smaller with our line ups as there are too many tales and by that I mean players who take contested marks.

I think goodvibes has the skeleton of the team but I think we need to outsource. If Neeld really had read the book "Moneyball" he would have targeted clearance specialists and known ball winners. Rodan, Byrnes, Pederson and Gillies do not fit into that category and I reckon the FD just took whoever was available.

I can see big improvement in Gawn and his 2nd efforts are sensational. Michael Evans has been worth the wait he will run and Hogan will be the most anticipated arrival next year.

[praha 11,227]

Processes...

... get the processes right,,, the Team Value Systems...

Non Negotiables should be set in stone... compete & contest,,, tackling,,, chasing,,, going in when its your turn,,, respecting the jumper & your clubmates by giving all,,, showing courage in fear situations,,, being Inclusive to all,,, Set the Examples OnField

we should not except any player, Not Doing, what should be done. No one, should be above the Team Values

... the Culture is the life, or the death

Undoubtedly the best comment in this thread.

[G&D 8]

My Premiership jigsaw looks a little like this:

FB: ? Frawley Terlich

CHB: Grimes McDonald ?

C: Toumpas ? ?

CHF: Howe Clark Trengove

FF: ? Hogan ?

Foll: Gawn ? Viney

Int: Jones Sylvia ? ?

In other words I'm confident that 13 players have the quality and talent to become MFC premiership players. I certainly haven't given up on Blease and obviously Dawes may well feature but I'm not convinced. Watts hasn't proven to be AFL standard in any one position over his 5 years. I'm concerned. Garland also may take that next step but I'm unsure. Matt Jones, Evans and Bail all add impressive run and endurance but lack the polish required to be premierhsip players. Perhaps one could emerge as an important role player in a premiership year. Fingers crossed Barry develops and Taggert and Tynan remain in the hopeful basket. I don't rate Strauss, Dunn or Tapscott. I see Grimes as more a back flanker and Trengove, sadly more of a half forward flanker who rotates onto the ball. I'm going early on Terlich - I think he'll make it. My jigsaw reveals that we need 3 quality midfielders at least. One out and out star that is truly inside and outside and another first dibs inside midfield and another silky skilled outside running machine. We also need a quality ball user out of the back half and one or two genuinely scary small forwards. With the potential on our list I'd hope that at least 3 of my nine holes can be filled internally. I still think we're 6 players short at the moment - and that's a hell of a lot if you consider our patchy recruiting/drafting efforts of the past decade.

Honestly?! And I thought our players were a laughing stock!

I like the look of Terlich but he has played 2 or 3 games and you are hanging your hopes on him as a premiership component. We've seen even less of Toumpas so let's wait till he gets a kick before we pencil him in

Jones and Clark are likely to be long gone by the time we have any sort of "premiership window".

Sylvia - give me a break. He will be 30 and some people will still be waiting for this [censored] to realise that "potential"

Frawley gets beaten more than a red headed step child

McDonald ain't gonna make it

Trengove if we are honest is an average toiler.

Definition of constructive

adjective

• 1having or intended to have a useful or beneficial purpose:constructive advice

Fantasy is not useful or beneficial

[bing181 9,193]

Fantasy is not useful or beneficial

So, what was useful or beneficial in what you posted?

[G&D 8]

So, what was useful or beneficial in what you posted?

Reality is always useful

[Soidee 1,496]

The thing that really saddens me is JT. Arrived at the club and immediately showed why he was a pick 2, committed to this club and bleeds red and blue. Sadly Injured but that's not my beef.

Neeld has put Jack in a shocking position that has set his football back years. It's very sad for such a young talent.

This club needs midfielders by the dozen with talent. Poor Jonesy works his arse off but is just a grunter.

We have the making of a really good forward setup, but its all bloody useless if we don't have elite star mids.

[monoccular 17,411]

Whether you're leaning one way or the other with Neeld and his football department, I was hoping we might be able to constructively debate where improvement in our list might come from. It's sad that I'm already looking to the future for solace this early into the season, but at least we may provide ourselves with reason to be positive. Without simply proffering "sack the coach", "sack the midfield" etc, which areas do we think we might have covered and which positions require strengthening? Will one or two A grade midfielders fix our problems or are there other positional weaknesses that will prevent improvement?

Let's think about the three lines:

Midfielders

Defenders

Forwards

What are 'Landers thoughts on our midfield, past merely "it's rubbish"? Who do we think is showing something and may have the attributes to take it to that next level? What sort of midfield mix do we think is required to not just become competitive at AFL level, but compete with the top teams? Attributes like hardened bodies, experience, speed, endurance, ball winning ability etc. Can we constructively pinpoint three or four mids who may have what it takes? How many of these might we need? Depth should be taken into account too.

With regards to the backline, is it as simple as purely winning clearances, implementing midfield pressure across the ground, adhering to and setting up structures or are some backs not up to it? We know our backline is struggling with the onslaught of opposition inside 50s, but who has the defensive techniques, skills and upside to remain in the back six once we dig ourselves out of this hole?

Arguably the line with the greatest upside is the forward half. How things change, given that only three years ago our defence was donned "The Great Wall". Clark, Dawes and Hogan present promising key position forward stocks. Putting aside the need for midfielders, what are your thoughts on our key position stocks?

The well-worn adage that I keep leaning on during this frankly depressing era is that things can turn around quickly. Ultimately, I hope this discussion can identify that we don't have as far to go as we think.

My Premiership jigsaw looks a little like this:

FB: ? Frawley Terlich

CHB: Grimes McDonald ?

C: Toumpas ? ?

CHF: Howe Clark Trengove

FF: ? Hogan ?

Foll: Gawn ? Viney

Int: Jones Sylvia ? ?

In other words I'm confident that 13 players have the quality and talent to become MFC premiership players. I certainly haven't given up on Blease and obviously Dawes may well feature but I'm not convinced. Watts hasn't proven to be AFL standard in any one position over his 5 years. I'm concerned. Garland also may take that next step but I'm unsure. Matt Jones, Evans and Bail all add impressive run and endurance but lack the polish required to be premierhsip players. Perhaps one could emerge as an important role player in a premiership year. Fingers crossed Barry develops and Taggert and Tynan remain in the hopeful basket. I don't rate Strauss, Dunn or Tapscott. I see Grimes as more a back flanker and Trengove, sadly more of a half forward flanker who rotates onto the ball. I'm going early on Terlich - I think he'll make it. My jigsaw reveals that we need 3 quality midfielders at least. One out and out star that is truly inside and outside and another first dibs inside midfield and another silky skilled outside running machine. We also need a quality ball user out of the back half and one or two genuinely scary small forwards. With the potential on our list I'd hope that at least 3 of my nine holes can be filled internally. I still think we're 6 players short at the moment - and that's a hell of a lot if you consider our patchy recruiting/drafting efforts of the past decade.

Great POSITIVE posts, that will upset some as it doesn't involve wholesale changes, sacking the coach, board and entire list!!!

[RalphiusMaximus 6,018]

Neeld said it himself. We are one top midfielder short of what he wants in terms of putting the list together. We need to throw everything at getting one in this year's trade period. I honestly don't care who we get, as long as we manage to snare someone. We have a number of young developing players who could really use that example around the club and Jones could certainly use the help on the field. From there it's just a matter of getting them playing as a cohesive unit.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

My Premiership jigsaw looks a little like this:

FB: ? Frawley Terlich

CHB: Grimes McDonald ?

C: Toumpas ? ?

CHF: Howe Clark Trengove

FF: ? Hogan ?

Foll: Gawn ? Viney

Int: Jones Sylvia ? ?

In other words I'm confident that 13 players have the quality and talent to become MFC premiership players. I certainly haven't given up on Blease and obviously Dawes may well feature but I'm not convinced. Watts hasn't proven to be AFL standard in any one position over his 5 years. I'm concerned. Garland also may take that next step but I'm unsure. Matt Jones, Evans and Bail all add impressive run and endurance but lack the polish required to be premierhsip players. Perhaps one could emerge as an important role player in a premiership year. Fingers crossed Barry develops and Taggert and Tynan remain in the hopeful basket. I don't rate Strauss, Dunn or Tapscott. I see Grimes as more a back flanker and Trengove, sadly more of a half forward flanker who rotates onto the ball. I'm going early on Terlich - I think he'll make it. My jigsaw reveals that we need 3 quality midfielders at least. One out and out star that is truly inside and outside and another first dibs inside midfield and another silky skilled outside running machine. We also need a quality ball user out of the back half and one or two genuinely scary small forwards. With the potential on our list I'd hope that at least 3 of my nine holes can be filled internally. I still think we're 6 players short at the moment - and that's a hell of a lot if you consider our patchy recruiting/drafting efforts of the past decade.

To get those 6 players, MFC may have trade players we want to keep. We desperately need quality mature mid fielders. And your generous to Blease. No tank after 4 years in the AFL.