Neitz was an outstanding player, but not a champion. Didn't "carpe diem" in the big moment often enough. Hitting the post from metres out first q 2000 GF classic example. Ironically I believe he may have been a champion in the G Jakovich mould if he'd stayed at CHB for the duration.

G Lyon is the best player we've had in the last 25 years on true output, but injuries made a mess of him.

I'm with Hannabal, we haven't had a true champion since Robbie. There are 2 players that I'm certain would have reached true champion status but were both cruelly denied. One did his knee 3 times and the other hurt his butt shagging on a glass table.

Oh, and on topic - I'm certain Trengove will show in 2013 why he went pick 2 and has been a superstar at every level. He'll be like a new recruit. fit, fresh, quicker, less defensive, more outside: Cotchin like.

You mention Hannabal, where the hell is he these days. I used to enjoy reading his posts but I can't even find him on the members list.

You mention Hannabal, where the hell is he these days. I used to enjoy reading his posts but I can't even find him on the members list.

Hannabal = Ben Hur

You mention Hannabal, where the hell is he these days. I used to enjoy reading his posts but I can't even find him on the members list.

lol^

Dress it up any way you like, but Trengove had a pig of a season.

I would hope he was injured, but apparently he wasn't.

I'm a fan and think he'll improve, but he doesn't have the tools to ever be a champion of the game.

lol^

Dress it up any way you like, but Trengove had a pig of a season.

I would hope he was injured, but apparently he wasn't.

I'm a fan and think he'll improve, but he doesn't have the tools to ever be a champion of the game.

Geez......Thats an early call.........After a season of defensive hard work and a fitness wake up call (for all players) I believe the whole midfied group will improve and start to show whats its worth......But to say he doesn't have the tools in his 3or4th season is just crap.....Cotchin didn't have the greatest first two seasons ...but will be a champion....

yes i enjoyed all that

mark riccuito - 8 x all-australian

james hird - 5 x all-australian

nathan buckley - 7 x all-australian

ben cousins - 5 x all-australian

chris judd - 6 x all-australian

these are champion players. Exc. Buckley, who was runner-up twice, the rest delivered premierships

can you put aside the emotion you feel from a fellow supporter expressing a negative view to look at the truth. To pretend that I don't know what I'm talking about or that I am not a true demon is jut your self-defence mechanism kicking in.

do you realise that in the entire time all those players were consistently performing we had just TWO players even MAKE the side, that is Neitz and McDonald, twice each. That's why we spent the 2000s being pretenders at best. Those clubs had elite performers that led their sides to glory.

even gifted with the best talent in the land over the last 6 drafts we do not have a player anywhere near the calibre of those listed above. Our only strong contenders at the moment for star players are Clark and Jones, neither of whom has a CV in the same stratosphere as the aforementioned players. The reason is partially to do with money, but more to do with the fact we are one of the loser clubs with a poor culture. It has nothing to do with choices we made on draft night but the fact that our machine is incapable of producing star players. Our optimism rests solely on yet another coach, with yet another list, as we near a half-century without success. If you disagree, bump this thread when Jack Trengove, or Watts, or Viney, has 5 all-australian achievements.

again, i am not pretending to make any forecast about where we are headed, i am just stating the obvious truths as they are

it sucks, i hate it, but its the truth.

agree here C & B...Too many MFC supporters do not demand that extra elite % out of this club.

The truth is at this stage Trengove is no more than an average AFL player so far. He may well be a ripping bloke. But at the end of the day as an MFC captain it is his deeds on the ground i pay for...2012 was very ordinary but Moloney being useless i am sure did not help.

Edited November 30, 201212 yr by why you little

While we are on the subject of champions, how is it that Robbie only ever won one MFC B & F?

Laurie Fowler, Stan Alves and Greg Wells all managed multiples in that era ..

agree here C & B...Too many MFC supporters do not demand that extra elite % out of this club.

The truth is at this stage Trengove is no more than an average AFL player so far. He may well be a ripping bloke. But at the end of the day as an MFC captain it is his deeds on the ground i pay for...2012 was very ordinary but Moloney being useless i am sure did not help.

If we are to be successful, both our captains are going to have to be at least B to B+ players - bearing in mind that last year Jonesy was probably B.

Grimes is getting close - but on last year's form Trenners has a way to go. I'm not saying he won't get there - merely that he has to lift.

The truth is at this stage Trengove is no more than an average AFL player so far. He may well be a ripping bloke.

How about we not lose sight of the fact that Trengove is yet to play an AFL match as a 21 year old ?

Also lets not lose sight of the fact that he is one of the youngest ever to captain an AFL side, and he had minimal to no help from senior players last year.

Expecting WAY too much from someone so young with so much on his shoulders. DA you should stick to comedy my friend. He will come good- you don't just turn to shite overnight, there are reasons that Trengove had a bad year, and guess what- he was not on his own there.

While we are on the subject of champions, how is it that Robbie only ever won one MFC B & F?

Laurie Fowler, Stan Alves and Greg Wells all managed multiples in that era ..

Injury?

Injury?

Wondered about that. Could it (also) be that he was marked harder than his team-mates?

Neitz was an outstanding player, but not a champion. Didn't "carpe diem" in the big moment often enough. Hitting the post from metres out first q 2000 GF classic example. Ironically I believe he may have been a champion in the G Jakovich mould if he'd stayed at CHB for the duration.

G Lyon is the best player we've had in the last 25 years on true output, but injuries made a mess of him.

I'm with Hannabal, we haven't had a true champion since Robbie. There are 2 players that I'm certain would have reached true champion status but were both cruelly denied. One did his knee 3 times and the other hurt his butt shagging on a glass table.

Oh, and on topic - I'm certain Trengove will show in 2013 why he went pick 2 and has been a superstar at every level. He'll be like a new recruit. fit, fresh, quicker, less defensive, more outside: Cotchin like.

Yep, agree with all you have posted here. Great player for the MFC was David Neitz. In many Melbourne supporters eyes he may be seen as a "champion" of the club and that's ok, but not in a general football industry recognised sense IMO.

My reasoning is all that has been mentioned by B-H (H) and yourself.

As for Trengove I also think he's in for a much better season than 2012 which was considered average.

The focus is off him with a new exciting group coming in and he'll be able to focus on what he can control from a captain sense 12 months on as well as performing as required among a new dynamic which creates excitement.

Jack

While we are on the subject of champions, how is it that Robbie only ever won one MFC B & F?

Laurie Fowler, Stan Alves and Greg Wells all managed multiples in that era ..

One of life's little mysteries that one.

Also lets not lose sight of the fact that he is one of the youngest ever to captain an AFL side, and he had minimal to no help from senior players last year.

Expecting WAY too much from someone so young with so much on his shoulders. DA you should stick to comedy my friend. He will come good- you don't just turn to shite overnight, there are reasons that Trengove had a bad year, and guess what- he was not on his own there.

I'll always stick to comedy, it's my only redeeming quality.

I never said he was shite, and I said he'll improve/come good.

But the discussion has turned to champions, and from what I've seen my opinion is his best will be a good, consistent footballer. Not enough weapons to be a champion in today's game.

That's because Robbie Flower was the ultimate 'team first' player. In our earlier glory years Ron Barassi only won two B&F's, one in his final year when he was a veteran. Melbourne had no big goal kickers during that period, also due to the team first culture.

Edited November 30, 201212 yr by bush demon

Whoever on this forum has quoted that neitz was not a champion is a fool.

If he had played in a top side as a full forward he would have kicked over 100 goals on multiple occasions.

Our football club went crap the moment neitz retired.

It takes a lot of good management, luck with injuries and normally money to win premierships.

The Demons reached a grand final in 2000 with a crap list apparently according to some so called intelligent Demon supporters which contained players such as Green, The Ox, Neitz, Farmer, Yze, White all champions unfortunately denied a flag because of a pack of thugs coached by Sheedy.

If Hogan is half the player of Neitz we would have done well.

Curry & Beer, Nutbean & Ben Hur you should be ashamed of your comments

While we are on the subject of champions, how is it that Robbie only ever won one MFC B & F?

Laurie Fowler, Stan Alves and Greg Wells all managed multiples in that era ..

How is it that he never won a Brownlow? And bloody DiPierdomenico gets one! Best and Fairest player in the competition my ass.

Edited November 30, 201212 yr by Demon Disciple

Wondered about that. Could it (also) be that he was marked harder than his team-mates?

I reckon that was the case.

Robbie's skills were sublime & he was definitely a once in a generation player but when it came to the Bluey, he never seemed to poll well.

On the other hand, when he played for Victoria, he would invariably stand out as best on ground.

Definitely a mystery that he didn't win 3 or 4 Blueys!

Whoever on this forum has quoted that neitz was not a champion is a fool.

If he had played in a top side as a full forward he would have kicked over 100 goals on multiple occasions.

Our football club went crap the moment neitz retired.

It takes a lot of good management, luck with injuries and normally money to win premierships.

The Demons reached a grand final in 2000 with a crap list apparently according to some so called intelligent Demon supporters which contained players such as Green, The Ox, Neitz, Farmer, Yze, White all champions unfortunately denied a flag because of a pack of thugs coached by Sheedy.

If Hogan is half the player of Neitz we would have done well.

Curry & Beer, Nutbean & Ben Hur you should be ashamed of your comments

You mean for having an opinion ? If that opinion doesn't agree with yours there should be a sense of shame ?

I've stated that Neitz was a champion of the MFC. But when I consider "champions of the game", such as Matthews, Lockett, Dunstall, Hird, Ablett, Carey, he doesn't reach those heights. And that level is my parameter for being a "champion of the game".

I lose no sleep knowing that you don't share my opinion.

You mean for having an opinion ? If that opinion doesn't agree with yours there should be a sense of shame ?

I've stated that Neitz was a champion of the MFC. But when I consider "champions of the game", such as Matthews, Lockett, Dunstall, Hird, Ablett, Carey, he doesn't reach those heights. And that level is my parameter for being a "champion of the game".

I lose no sleep knowing that you don't share my opinion.

Your opinion is crap if Neitz would have played in the same sides as the players you mentioned he would have been a champion and would have reached the same heights.

You need a good nights sleep and after you consider he is a games record holder at our club, together with the clubs longest serving captain combined with the highest goal kicker we have had in 150 years you will hopefully wake up to yourself

I completely agree with C&B. The lack of stars at our club over the last 25 years is extraordinary. No club since the AFL came to being in 1990 would have a worse "best 22" over the last 20+ years.

Lyon, Stynes, Neitz... were champions of our club, but not champions of the game. We keep waiting.

Wow you really do need a good nights sleep with your statement that we have had the worst best 22 over the past 20 years.

How the hell did we reach a grand final in 2000 with a team playing in that year opposed to a team made up of our best players over your so called last 20 years.

Your opinions are normally well thought out get some sleep Ben

You mean for having an opinion ? If that opinion doesn't agree with yours there should be a sense of shame ?

I've stated that Neitz was a champion of the MFC. But when I consider "champions of the game", such as Matthews, Lockett, Dunstall, Hird, Ablett, Carey, he doesn't reach those heights. And that level is my parameter for being a "champion of the game".

I lose no sleep knowing that you don't share my opinion.

Not many do share your opinion but that never stops you putting it forward belligerently .

Only six reached the heights of the guys named above .You've left LLoyd off too-your other love .

Overloading isn't a bad thing for a still young ex state captain to experience. He'll be massive this year (- next.)

Edited December 1, 201212 yr by Spork

Your opinion is crap if Neitz would have played in the same sides as the players you mentioned he would have been a champion and would have reached the same heights.

You need a good nights sleep and after you consider he is a games record holder at our club, together with the clubs longest serving captain combined with the highest goal kicker we have had in 150 years you will hopefully wake up to yourself

So Neitz would have been as good as Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett, Carey, etc if he was in as good a team ?

You're delusional and have a horrible footy IQ.

So Neitz would have been as good as Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett, Carey, etc if he was in as good a team ?

You're delusional and have a horrible footy IQ.

Is that counted in goals and behinds or is it scored more like golf?

I've never done a FIQ test.