There is a bigger issue staring us in the face.

[Guest]

I have just gone through the 'Why didn't we speak to Ross Lyon thread?' and I have come to the following two conclusions.

1) Scribes like to talk about Carlton being a club that has always needed a savior, a messiah who will lead them out of the wilderness. Reading this board, I notice that a lot of posters are of a similar mindset. The thinking that is prevalent is that all the club needs to do is get X player, X coach or X administrator and all will be right. If Ross Lyon did come to Melbourne, he would be one piece of the puzzle but the long process of hard work that we currently face would remain. Repairing this football club will not entail any soft or easy options. Having the right people in place will help yes but it will take a collective commitment to work hard to turn this club around.

2) This conclusion is the reason I posted this in a separate thread as it isn't mutually exclusive to Ross Lyon. Last night's Fremantle win should be a huge lesson to clubs who wish to cut corners in order to achieve success i.e. tanking. It was suggested by some, the great Leigh Matthews included, that Freo should throw their final game to Melbourne in order to get a home final against West Coast. That was promptly ignored (to be honest, they could have played as badly as they wanted to and they probably still would have won) and they ground us into the dirt. They took the harder option and as a result, their club now is one that appears to have real character. I didn't see the flaky Dockers of yesteryear out there last night and I think that has a lot to do with the path they chose to follow leading into September.

If our club, Melbourne, wishes to make the advances Freo have this year, they need to also consider following the hard road rather than dreaming about what will come in the next draft or which person can be signed. I am sick of blind faith in one or the other person (I support what Neeld is doing but I am not following him blindly). I am sick of people to this day defending the tanking strategy and still talking as though the next draft will be the panacea to all our ills. If there is an example of how a club should play for the moment, Freo was surely it last night.

[The Reverend 1,736]

I agree with everything you say but what is the "issue" you suggest is staring us in the face?

[Guest]

The issue raised before was that Garry Lyon should have pushed harder for Ross Lyon. The real and bigger issue is Melbourne's unwillingness to brace themselves to follow the harder road as Fremantle did last night and for the club to think that a 'savior' will come along and cure all our ills.

Not that we would be in that position now but in years gone by, I could imagine Melbourne dropping a game like the one I mentioned before in order to get a cushier draw. As a former PM once said 'Life wasn't meant to be easy' and when it is, we often falter.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Guest

[daisycutter 29,600]

This thread sounds like one of those what the actress said to the bishop jokes

[Whispering_Jack 29,753]

The issue raised before was that Garry Lyon should have pushed harder for Ross Lyon. The real and bigger issue is Melbourne's unwillingness to brace themselves to follow the harder road as Fremantle did last night and for the club to think that a 'savior' will come along and cure all our ills.

That might be what many supporters are thinking and feeling but I don't believe that's how Mark Neeld and the football department are dealing with the situation.

[Hannibal 5,814]

I am sick of people ... talking as though the next draft will be the panacea to all our ills. If there is an example of how a club should play for the moment, Freo was surely it last night.

But it doesn't have to be one or the other. Everything you mentioned was true and important, as is using the draft to get top end talent into your club. Pavlich is a case in point. He's their greatest player and best on ground last night. He was also a top 5 pick.

Things don't need to be mutually exclusive.

[Mono 455]

I agree with everything you say but what is the "issue" you suggest is staring us in the face?

The issue is that we have a "cargo cult" mentality; a magical arrival will fix all.

While some on this forum seem to think this, I don't think the club does. Our last 3 coaches have all been low key. As for the "tanking", the club took the legitimate opportunity to maximaise its draft picks in 1 year (as 4 or 5 other clubs have done to their betterment).

We have failed over the last decade to develop a core of hard, hardworking and skilled senior players. Neitz was the last, and there were very few in the 6 or so years before he retired.

[Guest]

But it doesn't have to be one or the other. Everything you mentioned was true and important, as is using the draft to get top end talent into your club. Pavlich is a case in point. He's their greatest player and best on ground last night. He was also a top 5 pick.

Things don't need to be mutually exclusive.

I guess then it boils down to the development issue. I am not against having skilled juniors come into the club. Getting skilled juniors into the club is a means, not an end. Unfortunately, ours have come into the club and have sat on their hands for 3 years again linking into my theme of 'hard work'. They have been gifted games they haven't necessarily earned and it has been hoped that somehow they will flower into the second coming of Chris Judd.

[3183 Dee 2,841]

Agree 100% with the OP - the ramifications of tanking for priority picks are self-evident not just with us, but also Carlton who are now trying another 'get rich quick' solution.

There's a long, hard road ahead of this footy club - no easy fix, no saviour, no buying our way out.

In the age of the knee-jerk and the quick fix, it's vital that we, as supporters, get behind Neeld for the next two years and trust that he can pull this footy club up by the bootstraps, so that we can play the same hard, exciting, committed footy as Freo, Hawthorn and Sydney.

[Sir Why You Little 36,954]

Mark Neeld could learn a lot from Ross Lyon.

I started the thread because Lyon is the number one coach.

Happy with Mark as coach btw.

[jumbo returns 6,737]

This all links to a previous comment by a poster that raised the importance of 'buying in.'

[Hannibal 5,814]

I guess then it boils down to the development issue. I am not against having skilled juniors come into the club. Getting skilled juniors into the club is a means, not an end. Unfortunately, ours have come into the club and have sat on their hands for 3 years again linking into my theme of 'hard work'. They have been gifted games they haven't necessarily earned and it has been hoped that somehow they will flower into the second coming of Chris Judd.

I agree.

And here's another example of using the draft properly. Imo Hawthorn's best 5 players are Franklin, Hodge, Rioli, Mitchell and Roughead. Four of the five were first round draft picks and three of them were top 5 draft picks.

Get your culture right, get a great coaching and support group, and pick well.

[Mono 455]

Agree 100% with the OP - the ramifications of tanking for priority picks are self-evident not just with us, but also Carlton who are now trying another 'get rich quick' solution.

..........

Bollocks. The filth and hawthorn both tanked to get the players that are now (part of) their core; both won flags.

[Guest]

Bollocks. The filth and hawthorn both tanked to get the players that are now (part of) their core; both won flags.

I'm not sure where this 'Hawthorn tanked' talk has come from. The draft that netted Franklin and Roughead was in 2004. Before the 2004 season, Peter Schwab came out and said he thought Hawthorn could win the flag. If the club was determined to throw that year, Schwabby clearly wasn't in on the conspiracy cos he lost his job!

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

I agree with the principle of this thread

There are no easy answers to get us back to being a contender. We need to stick to a plan and at the moment it's Neeld building a cometitive list.

It took Malthouse 11 years??? at the pies lets hope Neeld at least gets to see out his contract.

[3183 Dee 2,841]

The difference is that we seemed to think that simply tanking over a three year period to get number one draft picks was all we needed to do, the rest would take care of itself. Therefore, I'd argue that our culture until recently has been built around pipe dreams, laziness and complacency.

The Hawks and Pies have at least used their ill-gotten gains correctly.

[IRW 1,386]

The difference is that we seemed to think that simply tanking over a three year period to get number one draft picks was all we needed to do, the rest would take care of itself. Therefore, I'd argue that our culture until recently has been built around pipe dreams, laziness and complacency.

The Hawks and Pies have at least used their ill-gotten gains correctly.

Hallelulah at last someone actually gets it!

Its also the reason that the journos and some other coaches (all successfull) appear to hate MFC........They couldnt even cheat efficiently.

If the Dees were contenders there wouldnt be a witch hunt and I suggest thats why Brock wasnt concerned about going to Carlton...he didnt actually blame tanking he said it was the vibe around MFC. or something similar.He wanted to go somewhere where there was a ruthless drive for success.

Same thing for supporters as evidenced by the ridiculous Cloke edging closer to MFC thread about a squillion pages long and morphing into Goddard as the saviour when it becomes clear that Cloke aint happening.

Meanwhile the report that the Dees are 'into' Shannon Byrne from Geelong..28 and no superstar, but a very useful footballer from a winning culture with 100 games experience and two flags under his belt, doesnt even raise a sniff around here... not sexy enough I guess even though he's probably a realistic option who fits the clubs immediate needs

Edited September 9, 2012 by IRW

[Guest]

Hallelulah at last someone actually gets it!

Its also the reason that the journos and some other coaches (all successfull) appear to hate MFC........They couldnt even cheat efficiently.

If the Dees were contenders there wouldnt be a witch hunt and I suggest thats why Brock wasnt concerned about going to Carlton...he didnt actually blame tanking he said it was the vibe around MFC. or something similar.He wanted to go somewhere where there was a ruthless drive for success

I think the 'Pies/Hawks tanked' thesis is half correct. I reckon Hawthorn didn't tank in 2004 as the events that surrounded that year indicated that they thought they would contend that year. As I said earlier, if they were tanking, Peter Schwab didn't get the memo because he got the sack. The only brilliant players they picked up in their era of mediocrity via top ten draft picks were their two big forwards. The rest they got elsewhere.

As for Collingwood, they were going to plateau a bit after 2003 but I don't think they would have bottomed out as badly as they did. A couple of years around 9th and 10th would have made a bit more sense. On top of this Malthouse was retained. I can buy the Collingwood argument better than the Hawthorn one.

I agree with 3183Dee to a large extent but I differ in that I think that the strategy of tanking now to win in the future contributed to the culture built around pipe dreams, laziness and complacency.

[Mono 455]

.................

Meanwhile the report that the Dees are 'into' Shannon Byrne from Geelong..28 and no superstar, but a very useful footballer from a winning culture with 100 games experience and two flags under his belt, doesnt even raise a sniff around here... not sexy enough I guess even though he's probably a realistic option who fits the clubs immediate needs

Cats didn't go for Byrnes as a replacement for Johnson even tho' they were considered a real chance for the flag; likely to be their last chance for a few years.

Instead they went for a couple of novices who played poorly. Clearly, Scott does not rate him. Why should we?

[Hero1 74]

It didn't take Malthouse 11 years to get into a grand final.

[IRW 1,386]

Cats didn't go for Byrnes as a replacement for Johnson even tho' they were considered a real chance for the flag; likely to be their last chance for a few years.

Instead they went for a couple of novices who played poorly. Clearly, Scott does not rate him. Why should we?

Well because he's an experienced quick mid who can kick a goal and might well lift again,given a chance at a new club..

He probably doesnt have a future at the Cats a they bring in younger players but at the Dees they need eperience.

Obviously an experienced superstar would be best but I think its promising to hear that the reality bus isnt an imported Mecedes Benz luxery liner any more than its the banged up Olympic from Paul Kelly's song. Reliablity and good miles to the gallon is what MFC should be targeting and Byrne might fit the bill.

My point actually was the lack of discussion though as opposed to the endless drivel posted about superstrars.

Anyway maybe Scot thought they had the game in the bag and just got his selection wrong.

Edited September 9, 2012 by IRW

[Tony Tea 2,806]

Both StKilda and Fremantle had reasonably establish lists when Lyon arrived. It is a big stretch to imagine he would get the same results with Melbourne's list.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

It didn't take Malthouse 11 years to get into a grand final.

Nope you're right he made grand finals in his first years at Collingwood - but that wasn't my point, it took him 10 - 11 years to actually win one

What I am trying to say is that building a list can take a while and agreeing with CFH and others saying that low draft picks and FA's will not make the MFC a contender straight away.... Players need to buy in and Neeld needs to build his list....

Knowing our supporters I will be suprised if Neeld finishes out his contract let alone build a competitive list

Edited September 9, 2012 by Unleash Hell

[dee-luded 2,959]

Agree 100% with the OP - the ramifications of tanking for priority picks are self-evident not just with us, but also Carlton who are now trying another 'get rich quick' solution.

There's a long, hard road ahead of this footy club - no easy fix, no saviour, no buying our way out.

In the age of the knee-jerk and the quick fix, it's vital that we, as supporters, get behind Neeld for the next two years and trust that he can pull this footy club up by the bootstraps, so that we can play the same hard, exciting, committed footy as Freo, Hawthorn and Sydney.

But, it didn't hurt the Hawks, the Pies & the Saints.

So maybe other issues were hurting things other than dropping to get a top up.

The Hawks, Pies, & Saints under Lyon, had better cultures for those Kids to learn & adopt.

[dee-luded 2,959]

The difference is that we seemed to think that simply tanking over a three year period to get number one draft picks was all we needed to do, the rest would take care of itself. Therefore, I'd argue that our culture until recently has been built around pipe dreams, laziness and complacency.

The Hawks and Pies have at least used their ill-gotten gains correctly.

It's only a pert of it, but we also let Jnr Mac go. Our best inspiration & leader.

i agree with what you've said in this post '3183 Dee'