GWS and GC are being pleaded with to make us pay full price and if they do call Viney's name they won't do it 'to shaft us' they will do it because they either believe he is good enough, or to not give a competitor a massive leg up.

We done?

Not quite done. Tell me what does GWS or GC get out of helping these 'pleading' teams that would justify risking pick 1 or 2 to get a player who might be worth pick 5? This seems to be the one thing that you don't seem prepared to answer.

Even if he is worth pick 3 or 4.... if the MFC believe that there is a clear distinct difference between the top couple of players and those rated 3-6 then they would need to think hard on what they do.

Edit: I am kinda cranky RP that in having to feel the need to answer your post we have extended this unnecessary Poll further than it deserved j/k

Edited August 14, 201212 yr by Oucher

How could a contract with a 16 year old that isn't at the club be binding?

It is, however, a statement of intent, and a pretty public one.

Should I insert my own little aside here or can that argument stand on it's own.

"The thing that is becoming apparent" means what exactly? That Viney has slipped back into the pack from the standout that some said earlier? Knightmare on BF is pretty certain about his talents. He is going to be close to the 5th best pick from all accounts that I have read.

Paranoia?

GWS and GC are being pleaded with to make us pay full price and if they do call Viney's name they won't do it 'to shaft us' they will do it because they either believe he is good enough, or to not give a competitor a massive leg up.

Call me vindictive but I would do the same if Eseendon was we are and I had the chance to keep them from getting a Judd with their Daniher.

I wouldn't hesitate.

We are trying to get a Judd to go with our Viney and I just want to make sure of it.

We done?

RP, I'm well and truly done thanks, I just wish you were.

Not quite done. Tell me what does GWS or GC get out of helping these 'pleading' teams that would justify risking pick 1 or 2 to get a player who might be worth pick 5? This seems to be the one thing that you don't seem prepared to answer.

Even if he is worth pick 3 or 4.... if the MFC believe that there is a clear distinct difference between the top couple of players and those rated 3-6 then they would need to think hard on what they do.

Edit: I am kinda cranky RP that in having to feel the need to answer your post we have extended this unnecessary Poll further than it deserved j/k

We are in a competitive industry and if a team has played their hand in the way we have - it is difficult to walk it back. It is a fair bet that the Powers That Be at the club think the same - that in terms of investment - they won't split hairs when it comes to getting Jack.

And why should these teams let us have Pick 3 aswell as Viney? And why shouldn't they contact us and say, 'if you want this to happen, we want something for nothing'?

If the Dees were cupping their balls the way they are ours - I would want them doing it.

Let's just do it, and we can be on our merry.

RP, I'm well and truly done thanks, I just wish you were.

Always with the little asides.

(Insolently worded retort with bitter undertones)

I would take him at any cost for two reasons.

1: if for some reason he wears another jumper next year and carves it up or even becomes a serviceable player it would be an embarrassment to this club and any respect this club has left will all be gone

2: he didn't set the world on fire in the carnival due to wojo trying to show how much of a big man he is (i haven't forgotten wojo ya [censored]) but the kid is playing vfl footy and is playing well against men well above his age and experience viney is a ready made player. Don't forget Cale Morton had a cracker of a carnival and that's turned out well

Maybe like how we plan on doing handshake deals for GC and GWS to not bid, the Bulldogs are doing Handshake deals so that they do bid. It benefits the bulldogs more then any other team with them having 2 picks right after ours. They arnt happy with Libba at the moment, Libba for a 4th round pick and to bid on Viney is an example of what type of handshake could occur.

We are in a competitive industry and if a team has played their hand in the way we have - it is difficult to walk it back. It is a fair bet that the Powers That Be at the club think the same - that in terms of investment - they won't split hairs when it comes to getting Jack.

And why should these teams let us have Pick 3 aswell as Viney? And why shouldn't they contact us and say, 'if you want this to happen, we want something for nothing'?

If the Dees were cupping their balls the way they are ours - I would want them doing it.

Let's just do it, and we can be on our merry.

You don't give the Powers To Be at our Club enough respect. They have played this JV situation perfectly over a period of time. They got JACK to commit to joing the Demons via F/S selection, and by the sounds of it, we have a condition in the agreement regarding what selection we would take him at. I'm quite sure at the time of JAck's decision that all and sundry were expecting the MFC to be pushing for the 8, meaning that we were probably looking at "sacrificing" Pick 10+, not Pick 3!

Now that it is clear what pick we will be using, opposition Clubs, especially those above us, know that we are potentially getting a potential Top 10 draft pick (or in your eyes, a certain Top 5 pick), with a pick in the 20's. Of course there is going to be uproar from other Clubs, but you know what? Fcuk them. We've won 3 games this season, that's been bloody tough on Club and supporter so I don't care what the other blokes/clubs think.

Then, these Powers To Be have come out and made it clear that there is no binding contract, and that we don't "have" to take Jack at our first selection. the fact that there are only 2 sides underneath us that can force our hand quicker would absolutely be questioning what our movements are, especially given we have made it public that we will not be forced in to paying overs for him, which it would be reasonable to believe that Pick 3 is in fact overs.

Having the slightest doubt in the minds of GC/GWS is more than enough to not require us to make special deals. GC/GWS will do what's best for them, and won't be bullied in to dummy bidding for Jack by the 15 clubs above us that are making a song and dance. Can you imagine Sheedy/Gubby caving in to "the rest" by nominating Jack, at the risk of losing Whitfield? Obviously RP, you can imagine that, and I respect that. But I will just be thankful that you aren't one of the decision makers in this situation.

GWS and GC interests will come before worrying about whether the Bullies are going to jump up a notch in the order.

If the GWS of GC bid, they get Viney and that is the risk they have to weigh up, its not just a matter of throwing in a dummy bid.

If you want Jack, he is yours with 1 or 2.

Now Viney hasn't played much this year, we've deliberately done this of course, so the risk for the GWS and GC is a decent

risk to be taking, picks 1 and 2 are big picks, you can't be stuffing around with dummy bids on them.

I dont think GWS will bid with pick 1.

That leaves the GC and do they want to risk Viney coming back to Vic after a couple of years and not getting compensated

adequetely for him - like the Caddy situation where they will be forced to take unders in a trade.

And why should these teams let us have Pick 3 aswell as Viney? And why shouldn't they contact us and say, 'if you want this to happen, we want something for nothing'?

Ummm,... because thats kinda how the F/S stuff works. You don't hear anyone moaning about the fact that Essendon are getting Joe Daniher for next to nothing are they?

The only picks that are of importance to determining the fate of Jack Viney are picks 1 or 2, therefore the only clubs risking anything are GWS and GC.

I gotta stop this now... I am repeating myself in numerous threads saying the same thing....

like the Caddy situation where they will be forced to take unders in a trade.

Not necessarily. Melbourne or Essendon will likely be prepared to give up a very juicy pick for Caddy. Some might even argue overs for what he has shown so far.

Not necessarily. Melbourne or Essendon will likely be prepared to give up a very juicy pick for Caddy. Some might even argue overs for what he has shown so far.

Providing Essendon can get a juicy pick. Their first live pick is like to be mid to late 20s given they will take Daniher with the F/S pick.

I won't disagree that we could give up a good pick for Caddy if thats the type of player we are going for.

Ummm,... because thats kinda how the F/S stuff works. You don't hear anyone moaning about the fact that Essendon are getting Joe Daniher for next to nothing are they?

The only picks that are of importance to determining the fate of Jack Viney are picks 1 or 2, therefore the only clubs risking anything are GWS and GC.

I gotta stop this now... I am repeating myself in numerous threads saying the same thing....

Daniher is, by all accounts, the KPF of the draft and a steal for Essendon at their first pick. No-one is moaning because there is nothing to moan about - the rules will work as intended and let Essendon have Daniher at a discount.

Viney has a chance to be picked up at 3 or 25.

Hence the consternation.

And I agree that GWS and GC hold our fate on this - I don't really know what you are getting at - if they see him as top 2 or believe we will take him wherever - they will bid for him.

Maybe we can leave it amicably by saying it is all down to the motivations of two clubs, how they see Jack Viney, whether the MFC will meet any price, and our own opinions of those 3 questions.

Daniher is, by all accounts, the KPF of the draft and a steal for Essendon at their first pick. No-one is moaning because there is nothing to moan about - the rules will work as intended and let Essendon have Daniher at a discount.

Viney has a chance to be picked up at 3 or 25.

Hence the consternation.

And I agree that GWS and GC hold our fate on this - I don't really know what you are getting at - if they see him as top 2 or believe we will take him wherever - they will bid for him.

Maybe we can leave it amicably by saying it is all down to the motivations of two clubs, how they see Jack Viney, whether the MFC will meet any price, and our own opinions of those 3 questions.

But who cares if it is 3 or 25? Thats not the issue, the issue is more that we get would get to spend 3 and 4 on another pick. It's not the first F/S that has been gotten for a steal, I still reckon the bombers potentially get a bigger steal than us regardless. The difference is that they will happily pay the price, and the price is lower than what we might pay.

Happy to be amicable, but you are still bending the words with this bit " if they see him as top 2 or believe we will take him wherever - they will bid for him.what you say above."

That last bit irks me. They will take him if they see him as a top 2. They will not bid if there is any risk we won't take him, and if he is not worthy of one of these picks then they are at risk of screwing up their 2012 draft... and for what?

I know you rate Viney, I do as well. But I don't believe the MFC are going to be hoodwinked into paying more than what Viney is worth. If they nominate him, and we take him with 3, I believe it is going to be based on him being worthy of the pick. If it doesn't eventuate, even better.

I'd say GWS and GCS would consider MFC 90% sure to take JV at 3 if they had to

Question then is whether they are prepared to take that 10% risk for virtually no gain

If GWS get a top 10 pick in the 17YO draft (other than from us) it might encourage them to bluff

I'd say GWS and GCS would consider MFC 90% sure to take JV at 3 if they had to

Question then is whether they are prepared to take that 10% risk for virtually no gain

If GWS get a top 10 pick in the 17YO draft (other than from us) it might encourage them to bluff

All those initials and numbers my (wine affected) head is spinning. Great meaningless post!

All those initials and numbers my (wine affected) head is spinning. Great meaningless post!

Excellent mindless post.

Excellent mindless post.

Mine or DC's ?

Honestly couldn't care less if we have to take JV at 3. We have committed to him and the Viney family, knowing full well it will cost us our first pick. We all believe the kid is in his fathers image - a tough as nails unit who runs through brick walls but supposedly has good skills as well. The kid deserves to go in the first few, despite all our desires to "bluff" him down the order - he is a known commodity and would be in the running first the first few picks regardless of our F/S availability. If by some miracle we get to use pick 23ish on him fantastic, but realistically we will take him at 3 and we will all be very happy with what we get as a number 3 pick.

as long as we get him i don't really care which pick we use on him! I think he's a worthy 3rd pick but if we can get him at pick 25 then thats brilliant, gives us another high pick to use on another probable star

Maybe we can leave it amicably by saying it is all down to the motivations of two clubs, how they see Jack Viney, whether the MFC will meet any price, and our own opinions of those 3 questions.

yep, that's all there is to be said, and I'm sure we won't be any clearer about it until october 8th

Honestly couldn't care less if we have to take JV at 3. We have committed to him and the Viney family, knowing full well it will cost us our first pick. .

at that time we did not know that pick would be so high though.

Honestly couldn't care less if we have to take JV at 3. We have committed to him and the Viney family, knowing full well it will cost us our first pick. We all believe the kid is in his fathers image - a tough as nails unit who runs through brick walls but supposedly has good skills as well. The kid deserves to go in the first few, despite all our desires to "bluff" him down the order - he is a known commodity and would be in the running first the first few picks regardless of our F/S availability. If by some miracle we get to use pick 23ish on him fantastic, but realistically we will take him at 3 and we will all be very happy with what we get as a number 3 pick.

+ 1 pretty much hit the nail on the head for me, DGAF just take him

Honestly couldn't care less if we have to take JV at 3. We have committed to him and the Viney family, knowing full well it will cost us our first pick. We all believe the kid is in his fathers image - a tough as nails unit who runs through brick walls but supposedly has good skills as well. The kid deserves to go in the first few, despite all our desires to "bluff" him down the order - he is a known commodity and would be in the running first the first few picks regardless of our F/S availability. If by some miracle we get to use pick 23ish on him fantastic, but realistically we will take him at 3 and we will all be very happy with what we get as a number 3 pick.

Presenting opinion as fact. A sure fire way to get people to doubt the value of your opinion.

Sorry if this has been covered.. theres so many threads on the freakin topic..

If parties agreed,

-can we swap our Pick 3 - ND, for GWS pick 1 - U17 Draft?.. obviously with a sweetener, Im thinking Morton.. (originally pick 4, we would re-inform them)

-this, as a sweetener for us, assures us Viney in the 2nd round, as 4 + 13 are concessions..

-We would pinch Martin for eg, with 4 + 13 and Viney rd. 2.. GWS with pick 1 + 3 and GC with 2 in the ND..

Everybody happy??

Sorry if this has been covered.. theres so many threads on the freakin topic..

If parties agreed,

-can we swap our Pick 3 - ND, for GWS pick 1 - U17 Draft?.. obviously with a sweetener, Im thinking Morton.. (originally pick 4, we would re-inform them)

-this, as a sweetener for us, assures us Viney in the 2nd round, as 4 + 13 are concessions..

-We would pinch Martin for eg, with 4 + 13 and Viney rd. 2.. GWS with pick 1 + 3 and GC with 2 in the ND..

Everybody happy??

How is Morton a 'sweetener'?