On 13/03/2012 at 02:52, old dee said:

No.

It more likely means the players are not good enough to produce the required result.

Its not about not being good enough. Its about having a "Laurie Fowler" approach to playing. Not the most skilled player but had a ferocious desire to win.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:18, PaulRB said:

I'd be waiting for a couple of months of real game in the actual season before making any judgements on 2012.

Thus far we have lost to GC, beat Brissie, beat Collingwood and lost to Hawthorn, while trying to bed down a new game plan, prepare for Rd 1 and blood inexperienced players (i.e. Troy Davis) . Would have expected to beat GC and lost to the Pies.

Conclusion: data too small and inconsistent to draw any conclusions.

There is 48 years of very consistent data on "AFL Stats" to back up the feeling of the coming year!!

The MFC's great plans are always 3 years away...except this time they have to actually eventuate otherwise free agency will dismantle whatever we achieved.

In one aspect i am glad about this, i could not cope with another 30 years of future projections before i die.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:18, PaulRB said:

I'd be waiting for a couple of months of real game in the actual season before making any judgements on 2012.

Thus far we have lost to GC, beat Brissie, beat Collingwood and lost to Hawthorn, while trying to bed down a new game plan, prepare for Rd 1 and blood inexperienced players (i.e. Troy Davis) . Would have expected to beat GC and lost to the Pies.

Conclusion: data too small and inconsistent to draw any conclusions.

I'm going to add to this that Carlton have lost every game (including a thrashing from Brisbane), Geelong got thrashed by Richmond, Collingwood got killed by Adelaide, and almost beaten by GWS. NAB cup doesn't mean much and if anything it's good we took a big loss now rather than in the home/away season. Think of it as a reality check.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:14, DemonMuzza said:

All I was looking for this year was a much smaller gap between our best and worst. While the game on the weekend did worry me at first that we are still lacking the mental strength to get up every week I am calmed by the contested possession count proving our boys were trying (even if they weren't very polished and decision making was poor.) and the response from the coach. I hope now he backs up his comments on the training track and at the selection table.

In the game on the weekend we were beaten by a far superior side and that's fair enough, but the boys never stopped trying and that was a plus; we lost games last year after matching the opposition for a couple of quarters or so and then were over run and seemed to throw in the towell. I don't believe we threw in the towell on Saturday we continued to battle right to the end and that showed they at least they have some spirit.

As I said in an earlier post we were under pressure 100% of the time and I can't remember where we had time to consider our options and plan our way forward. My main worry however was their total dominance of the centre and our refusal to put a player or two there to cut out the attacks they mounted through the centre corridor, it seemed that there was always three or four of their players hovering there unguarded.

Totally agree with Harrison rules. We have a lot of panic merchants on board. Do you think Geelong are worried about being thrashed by Richmond? Or Collingwood being really concerned at losing badly to Adelaide? It's the NAB cup. How important is it? What incentive did we have on Saturday? None, other than the risk of sustaining unwanted injuries. If I was a player I would be looking after myself a bit so that I was fit for the hurley burley of the REAL matches ahead. You don't get much match practice with a severe contact injury do you? I see practice matches as honing up your skills, working on a game plan and EXPERIMENTING with players in different positions. One poster wrote recently that anyone who played down results of the NAB Cup has no understanding of AFL football. I believe it is the opposite. Did I get really excited when we beat Collingwood? Sure, it was nice to have a victory but, what's at the back of the mind? It's ONLY the NAB Cup! Roll on the REAL SEASON!

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:27, mrtwister said:

I'd take a 120 loss in Round 2 for a 1 point win in Round 3.

i do know you are joking, but who else ever accepts a 120 point loss but a MFC supporter.

The deep deep ingrained problem this club has.

Hawthorn had us beaten in the rooms before the game last saturday.

Only took them 5 minutes to finish the job.

I think people are feeling a little pessimistic about the new season because over the last 4 years onfield Bugger all has changed.

Between 2007-2010 drafts did we recruit too many kids and not enough older leaders to teach these kids, as most of us knew the majority of our senior list was average at best?

People have said on here "why recruit someone with only 3-4 years left at top level? Get a kid with 10 years"

The experienced player has done it, knows what to expect. Is ready for the hits.

I will happily concede if our kids rock, but i believe our recruiters got the balance wrong.

In 2010-11 we missed Grunt badly.

So we go back to almost square one. Like only Melbourne does.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:18, PaulRB said:

I'd be waiting for a couple of months of real game in the actual season before making any judgements on 2012.

Thus far we have lost to GC, beat Brissie, beat Collingwood and lost to Hawthorn, while trying to bed down a new game plan, prepare for Rd 1 and blood inexperienced players (i.e. Troy Davis) . Would have expected to beat GC and lost to the Pies.

Conclusion: data too small and inconsistent to draw any conclusions.

Please, oh please read and re-read this.

We have a tough first 11 Rounds. Lets see where we're at come our bye in Round 12. At least then we'll have some real data to analyse.

  On 13/03/2012 at 02:14, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I found the weekends game to be a kick in the guts and reckoned there was a whiff of 186 in it.

Neeld's mission from day 1 was to make us the hardest team to play against in the AFL. I along with many others bought into that. However all I saw on Saturday was a bunch of witches hats dressed in red and blue.

Yes it's early days and we may eventually get there under the new coaching panel, but I'm now resigned to the fact we'll only win 4 or 5 games this year, and most of them at the G v's interstate sides.

I have to disagree.

Things that killed MFC during 186: No-one wanted to be within coo-ee of the ball. No effort.

Things that killed MFC on Saturday: Stuck to the gameplan (whether asked to or not), to the detriment of the scoreboard. Davis stayed on Hale the whole game, despite giving away height and strength advantages.

At least on Saturday, most of those out there seemed like they were actually making some sort of effort. Witches' hats don't win the contested possession count. They lose by 186 points.

  On 13/03/2012 at 04:03, why you little said:

i do know you are joking

Phew!

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:46, Bobby McKenzie said:

Totally agree with Harrison rules. We have a lot of panic merchants on board. Do you think Geelong are worried about being thrashed by Richmond? Or Collingwood being really concerned at losing badly to Adelaide? It's the NAB cup. How important is it? What incentive did we have on Saturday? None, other than the risk of sustaining unwanted injuries. If I was a player I would be looking after myself a bit so that I was fit for the hurley burley of the REAL matches ahead. You don't get much match practice with a severe contact injury do you? I see practice matches as honing up your skills, working on a game plan and EXPERIMENTING with players in different positions. One poster wrote recently that anyone who played down results of the NAB Cup has no understanding of AFL football. I believe it is the opposite. Did I get really excited when we beat Collingwood? Sure, it was nice to have a victory but, what's at the back of the mind? It's ONLY the NAB Cup! Roll on the REAL SEASON!

Bobby, the reason why Geelong, Collingwood and Carlton aren't worried about the NAB Cup is because they are Top 4 sides who have to cattle to ensure they remain in that upper echelon. If Melbourne were in that upper echelon, I wouldn't care about the NAB Cup either, but the reality is, we are ordinary, coming off an ordinary year, and have had wholesale changes sweeo through the Club.

Am I slashing my wrists? Absolutely not. Am I worried? I do have some concerns about how this season will play out. But regardless of the fact that we have a brand new coach, I still believe that starting our rebuild at 4 years ago that some progress should be obvious. 2012 will display if progress has been made.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:09, Rhino Richards said:

Agree to a point. Jury is still out on Neeld as we have had a couple of practice games so far. So if you are correct it makes a mockery of Neeld being the first coach to not accept mediocrity. I am not sure Bailey did either. And as you have pointed out its the basically the same list as last year.

Everyone keeps saying this... West Coast had basically the same list in 2011 as it did in 2010. It's called Player Development and new structures. Just because we have the same players doesn't mean we should accept the same result.

They added a few pieces most notably Jack Darling and players came on like Butler, Masten & Nicoski.

We added Clark and are hoping players like Tapscott, Strauss, Bennell, Blease, Morton, Petterd, Watts all move along with development. Not to mention also adding Magner, Couch and Sellar.

We have so much potential upside this year and not for a second am I expecting to finish 4th but the same list is absolutely no excuse.

  On 13/03/2012 at 04:03, why you little said:

i do know you are joking, but who else ever accepts a 120 point loss but a MFC supporter.

The deep deep ingrained problem this club has.

Hawthorn had us beaten in the rooms before the game last saturday.

Only took them 5 minutes to finish the job.

I think people are feeling a little pessimistic about the new season because over the last 4 years onfield Bugger all has changed.

Between 2007-2010 drafts did we recruit too many kids and not enough older leaders to teach these kids, as most of us knew the majority of our senior list was average at best?

People have said on here "why recruit someone with only 3-4 years left at top level? Get a kid with 10 years"

The experienced player has done it, knows what to expect. Is ready for the hits.

I will happily concede if our kids rock, but i believe our recruiters got the balance wrong.

In 2010-11 we missed Grunt badly.

So we go back to almost square one. Like only Melbourne does.

Can we stop this sh%t I certainly don't accept 120pt losses so don't put us all in the same basket, and whils we all want to go on about being let down for last 48 years and being down in the dumps, lets have a reality check. Whilst I have yet to see a Premiership lets not forget the seasons under Swooper where we were right up there, while Danners gave us a few good years although honestly apart from 98 we were never seriously in the hunt. Any uneducated person who jumped on to this site would think so who are MFC what have they had 48 wooden spoons in a row

  On 13/03/2012 at 04:56, Demon Land 7 said:

Everyone keeps saying this... West Coast had basically the same list in 2011 as it did in 2010. It's called Player Development and new structures. Just because we have the same players doesn't mean we should accept the same result.

They added a few pieces most notably Jack Darling and players came on like Butler, Masten & Nicoski.

We added Clark and are hoping players like Tapscott, Strauss, Bennell, Blease, Morton, Petterd, Watts all move along with development. Not to mention also adding Magner, Couch and Sellar.

We have so much potential upside this year and not for a second am I expecting to finish 4th but the same list is absolutely no excuse.

Now DL7 your talking common sense, although I agree I must also consider there seasoned players like Cox, Glass, Kerr, Lecras & Embley had big impacts as well as Nicoski & Lynch pulling seasons out of their a%#e

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:38, nutbean said:

Its not about not being good enough. Its about having a "Laurie Fowler" approach to playing. Not the most skilled player but had a ferocious desire to win.

Yep , and here lies our biggest problem . Not enough "Laurie Fowler" types .

We've got too many "outside" types on our list and Neeld needs to turn them around . He won't be able to turn all of them around , but if he has a success rate of 40% or better he really will be working wonders .

It seems Neeld will prefer "grunt" types over "outside" types . So , we may have to get used to turning the ball over a bit more until we have more "grunt" types who can dispose of the ball in a more efficient way . Players who relish the front position could get favoured as well . And rightly so .

It's early doors but I've a strong suspicion we'll be turning over quite a few players at seasons end . That doesn't mean we can't have a relatively good year and possibly play finals . It does mean , however , that we're a long way off being able to match it with the best sides .

Another major issue is the kicking skills of quite a few of our players . You'd reckon with the abundance of coaches we now have , that kicking skills will be a priority .

A transition year , by no means a lost year . Week to week is never more apt really . We need to find consistency of effort .

Cheers

  On 13/03/2012 at 04:48, billy2803 said:

Bobby, the reason why Geelong, Collingwood and Carlton aren't worried about the NAB Cup is because they are Top 4 sides who have to cattle to ensure they remain in that upper echelon. If Melbourne were in that upper echelon, I wouldn't care about the NAB Cup either, but the reality is, we are ordinary, coming off an ordinary year, and have had wholesale changes sweeo through the Club.

Am I slashing my wrists? Absolutely not. Am I worried? I do have some concerns about how this season will play out. But regardless of the fact that we have a brand new coach, I still believe that starting our rebuild at 4 years ago that some progress should be obvious. 2012 will display if progress has been made.

Your last sentence is exactly what I'm talking about, the REAL season! Let us wait and see. I'm quietly confident in this year's line up.

  On 13/03/2012 at 02:24, old dee said:

120

Am very confident we will be nowhere near that bad.

  On 13/03/2012 at 04:56, Demon Land 7 said:

Everyone keeps saying this... West Coast had basically the same list in 2011 as it did in 2010. It's called Player Development and new structures. Just because we have the same players doesn't mean we should accept the same result.

They added a few pieces most notably Jack Darling and players came on like Butler, Masten & Nicoski.

We added Clark and are hoping players like Tapscott, Strauss, Bennell, Blease, Morton, Petterd, Watts all move along with development. Not to mention also adding Magner, Couch and Sellar.

We have so much potential upside this year and not for a second am I expecting to finish 4th but the same list is absolutely no excuse.

I think a lot of people are also forgetting 97-98 for Melbourne. When we achieved the exact same result that West Coast got last year with a similar list. 98 was also the year we began with a new coach. I don't think that will be replicated this year by the side but there is a bit too much unrealistic pessimism for my liking in this thread.

Predictions for first half of this season:

Bris (@ MCG) - win (30 pts)

WCE (subi) - big loss (50-100 pts)

Rich (MCG) - narrow loss (10 pts)

Bullies (MCG) - narrow win (10 pts)

St K (MCG) - loss (30 pts)

Geelong (Kardinya) - big loss (50 + pts)

Hawthorn (MCG) - big loss (100 + pts)

Sydney (SCG) - loss (30 pts)

Carlton (MCG) - loss (30 pts)

Ess (MCG) - if my predictions before this round are right confidence will be shot so I'm calling it a loss (20 pts)

Coll (MCG) - loss (50 pts)

8 of 11 games at the MCG for 2 wins, maybe 3!!!!

It is a tough first half of the year. I think we'll be around 16th on the ladder at the half way mark of the season.

Happy to be proven wrong of course.

  On 13/03/2012 at 05:00, Pennant St Dee said:

Can we stop this sh%t I certainly don't accept 120pt losses so don't put us all in the same basket, and whils we all want to go on about being let down for last 48 years and being down in the dumps, lets have a reality check. Whilst I have yet to see a Premiership lets not forget the seasons under Swooper where we were right up there, while Danners gave us a few good years although honestly apart from 98 we were never seriously in the hunt. Any uneducated person who jumped on to this site would think so who are MFC what have they had 48 wooden spoons in a row

So by your account PSD we have had 3- 4 good years under Swooper and say 5 years under ND

So 9 good years out of 48 that means we have had 19% good years.

We had one period between 1965 and the 1987 when we did not play finals at all, 23 years.

So please lets not pretend that being a MFC supporter has been a bed of roses.

We have had far more crappy seasons than good ones.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:04, why you little said:

120 for round 2 could be conservative O.D.!!

I may need Pethadiene by 5.15PM on that day.

Send it to the Bentleigh Club if it looks ominous.

I think they have plenty of sedatives there wyl.

no need for me to send extras.

  On 13/03/2012 at 05:31, Redleg said:

Am very confident we will be nowhere near that bad.

Can you please send me a large bottle of your confidence Redleg

  On 13/03/2012 at 05:00, Pennant St Dee said:

Can we stop this sh%t I certainly don't accept 120pt losses so don't put us all in the same basket, and whils we all want to go on about being let down for last 48 years and being down in the dumps, lets have a reality check. Whilst I have yet to see a Premiership lets not forget the seasons under Swooper where we were right up there, while Danners gave us a few good years although honestly apart from 98 we were never seriously in the hunt. Any uneducated person who jumped on to this site would think so who are MFC what have they had 48 wooden spoons in a row

I am so glad those brief trips to the pointy end of the ladder bought you joy.

I was gutted. Hawthorn & Essendon supporters still remind me to this day.

Did we bounce back after those Crushing defeats??? No.

And don't tell me i am impatient...I/we have been more than reasnoable.

I mean all of us are still members. What other company would have such loyal shareholders!!!!

I loved Swooper...but we didn't get no Satisfaction.

  On 13/03/2012 at 05:35, leucopogon said:

Predictions for first half of this season:

Bris (@ MCG) - win (30 pts)

WCE (subi) - big loss (50-100 pts)

Rich (MCG) - narrow loss (10 pts)

Bullies (MCG) - narrow win (10 pts)

St K (MCG) - loss (30 pts)

Geelong (Kardinya) - big loss (50 + pts)

Hawthorn (MCG) - big loss (100 + pts)

Sydney (SCG) - loss (30 pts)

Carlton (MCG) - loss (30 pts)

Ess (MCG) - if my predictions before this round are right confidence will be shot so I'm calling it a loss (20 pts)

Coll (MCG) - loss (50 pts)

8 of 11 games at the MCG for 2 wins, maybe 3!!!!

It is a tough first half of the year. I think we'll be around 16th on the ladder at the half way mark of the season.

Happy to be proven wrong of course.

The original pessimist! Hawthorn by 100 plus at the G. No way! I certainly hope you are proven wrong.

  On 13/03/2012 at 03:36, nutbean said:

No - but I did say that our days of playing mediocre football are not over. Nothing erases the pain of losing but I dont need my pain intensified and exacerbated by a coach (Danners) saying "we didnt come to play" or Bailey taking "positives" out of some the shellackings we had.

What I do believe is that a different approach will be taken by Neeld to the "close enough good enough" attitude that some of players have had. The proof will be in the pudding.

You are mistakening fluff at a post game media conference after an appalling to suit your argument that past coaches "accepted mediocirty". And taking positives out of a game is a far more responsible public position than admonishing players in public. I know both ND and DB both lashed players performances individually and as a team behind close doors. And if you are now claiming its the attitude of the players then thats different. And its not earth shattering to suggest days of playing mediocre football are behind us. I would have thought rpfc's straw poll on predictions for the first 11 rounds might have indicated.

And how the year will turn out will be interesting to see.

  On 13/03/2012 at 04:56, Demon Land 7 said:

Everyone keeps saying this... West Coast had basically the same list in 2011 as it did in 2010. It's called Player Development and new structures. Just because we have the same players doesn't mean we should accept the same result.

They added a few pieces most notably Jack Darling and players came on like Butler, Masten & Nicoski.

We added Clark and are hoping players like Tapscott, Strauss, Bennell, Blease, Morton, Petterd, Watts all move along with development. Not to mention also adding Magner, Couch and Sellar.

We have so much potential upside this year and not for a second am I expecting to finish 4th but the same list is absolutely no excuse.

I am only quoting old dee on one of his really down days. I dont think its necessarily valid.

The difference with WCE is that they had their best six and most expereienced six on the park fit and firing all year in 2011 which they did not in 2010. And there senior six are far better than MFC's senior six.

I agree on the potential upside DL7. I am not buying the gloom many are bathing in so early in the year.

  On 13/03/2012 at 05:35, leucopogon said:

Predictions for first half of this season:

Bris (@ MCG) - win (30 pts)

WCE (subi) - big loss (50-100 pts)

Rich (MCG) - narrow loss (10 pts)

Bullies (MCG) - narrow win (10 pts)

St K (MCG) - loss (30 pts)

Geelong (Kardinya) - big loss (50 + pts)

Hawthorn (MCG) - big loss (100 + pts)

Sydney (SCG) - loss (30 pts)

Carlton (MCG) - loss (30 pts)

Ess (MCG) - if my predictions before this round are right confidence will be shot so I'm calling it a loss (20 pts)

Coll (MCG) - loss (50 pts)

8 of 11 games at the MCG for 2 wins, maybe 3!!!!

It is a tough first half of the year. I think we'll be around 16th on the ladder at the half way mark of the season.

Happy to be proven wrong of course.

leucopogon I am intrigued by your margins.

Can you explain 100+ points to Hawthorn

but only 50+ points at Geelong?

I do not get it!