Ultimate Footy - Norm Smith League

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

RR I just dont understand the enormous dilemma. For next year your best 2 players may not be as incredible as Mad Melbournes but if you take my proposed idea for example I think it gives you absolutely a huge hope. Your two picks under 100 i'd probably use a Back of Goddard (a rare commodity) and Mid of Griffin. Using than the actual rankings to find two players >100 you could than keep Rich and say Leunenberger who has been injury effected but as a ruckman is another handy pick up especially to get an a grader with your > 100 pick.

Mad Melbourne's two top picks would be Deledio and Watson for example granted better than yours but his middle range of say Kyle Horsley, Brad Sewell, Danny Stanley, Courtney Dempsey, IMO don't compare to yours! My list is as depleted as yours mate and it's the fun of trying to will yourself out of it through lucky pickups in the waivers and tactical trades. Embrace it!

You forgot broughton haha and I'd be picking Deledio and Franklin I think

I agree that the two keeper system is a much more fair system, as I said it still doesn't stop teams giving up once they have got their keeper players, I will use jlh as an example again, his stats will suffer with his acquisition of Kennedy and Murphy, with hodge also being injured his numbers will be worse having lost peddles. And now he has his keeper players, he won't be even slightly interested in any other trades, and can effectively log off uf until next year

[JACKATTACK 17]

The system is fair and always has been, i can't explain it to you any more clearly than the 30 odd posts over the year i have put up.

The way i see it, you're just annoyed that you drafted poorly and now want a rule change to get you up to speed.

Make your decision, are you in or out?

After you've decided I'll consider a revision to the rules.

[Range Rover 1,935]

The system is fair and always has been, i can't explain it to you any more clearly than the 30 odd posts over the year i have put up.

The way i see it, you're just annoyed that you drafted poorly and now want a rule change to get you up to speed.

Make your decision, are you in or out?

After you've decided I'll consider a revision to the rules.

The way you see it is wrong. I can accept my poor showing this year. Can't accept that I'm penalized for it for next.

It's unfair and it's dumb.

No need for the ultimatum. I'm out.

As a protest I'll be releasing my players back onto the market.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Furthermore, I'll be starting a new league for 2013 that will be fair and equitable for ALL participants from season to season.

Needless to say "keepers" will not form a part of it.

[Arrow 1,257]

Furthermore, I'll be starting a new league for 2013 that will be fair and equitable for ALL participants from season to season.

Needless to say "keepers" will not form a part of it.

You're sounding like a Clive Palmer/ Jeff Kennett hybrid with this rampage. I thoroughly suggest you reconsider because youll regret your choice to leave the game!

[DeeVoted 583]

Make your decision, are you in or out?

After you've decided I'll consider a revision to the rules.

No need for the ultimatum. I'm out.

As a protest I'll be releasing my players back onto the market.

Everyone needs to take a long deep breathe.

Revise the situation after a descision is made one way or another.

When JA has had time to gather his thoughts,relaxed and puts up a confirmed proposal for 2013

Forcing an ultimatum isnt the way to come to a conclusion,or either is threathening to leave.

Lets see what the outcome is, then RR decide what you think is best and right for yourself.

I am hoping for the short term, 2 player keeper with priority picks at the draft.

BUT the final say is the majority and then its in JA hands.

Making rash descisions in the heat of the moment isnt the ideal situation for keeping a level head.

PS to MM got your offer, I know what I need, but getting what I want???. But we dont always get what we want

Besides we arent sure where we stand, I am not withdrawing those players, but we do need to know what is going to be in place for next year.

Watch this space.

[JACKATTACK 17]

So you're going to try and wreck it for everyone else on the way out? For what enjoyment you did get out the league I ask that you not take that path, if not for me then for the other 16 coaches.

Goodbye RR, I wish you well in the future and I hope your new league is everything you hope it will be.

As for the rest of the league I hope it can return to business as usual. If there is enough support out there i'd support a drop down to 2 keepers, I'll wait to hear from others in case they would like their opinion heard. I also like the >100 idea for 2 keepers. I just need to flesh out the details.

I think as well it might be best if I hand over administration of the league to someone else at the end of the year. 2 years is enough time for 1 person and a new take on things might be the best way to keep this thing going.

There were a few offers at the start of the year, let me know if you're keen. It needs a someone who is prepared to champion it.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

PS to MM got your offer, I know what I need, but getting what I want???. But we dont always get what we want

Besides we arent sure where we stand, I am not withdrawing those players, but we do need to know what is going to be in place for next year.

Watch this space.

Just hit me a response, converse with me, so I can sort out some options, I have three weeks where discussions can take place as I am looking to bring in the trade just before my next match haha

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

@ Dappa

Thanks for all your replies but where I fundamentally disagree is with this system which encourages struggling sides to hoist the white flag by mid-season and starting playing a game of trades for next season.

There's no fun in it.

Yeah, look, each to their own. Everyone can have an opinion. I think that's basically what this might be here. Though you have said repeatedly that drafting poorly this year screws you for subsequent years. Then you claim to have heard no rational explanation for why this has happened. This is where I think you need to look at it as everyone else does, because I can give you a clear example of where you can gain ground. Watts Cook n traded Pendlebury among others, for what amount to a whole lot of junk from JLH's list. Granted, the trade was vetoed, but given the above concerns that have been raised, I'm confident it wouldn't be if it was put up again.

Now consider that. You've for sure got quality on your list that, while not good enough to go all the way, is enough to improve a contenders mid-range in a trade for a superstar or two. And JLH is even lower than you on the ladder, with a worse list. (or was, at least, he's made some moves since)

And there you have it mate. This position that you've taken that the poor drafters of 2012 will STILL suffer in 2013 is actually backwards. If I decided to lose ALL of my players off my list this year except for 2 keepers (say Leuie and Griffen or Goddard) and traded ALL my quality mid range players, you could for sure end up with a player like Ebert, who's on the up... Or Rockliff, who just got traded for Brown (???!!!)

Thereby you get a jump on the trading for superstars for next year by basically ONLY looking for four names. Your trading value becomes larger.

I feel like I'm oversimplifying... you've shown yourself to be sharp enough to have considered this already, but I thought it needed to be said.

I think that's it though... I reckon it works, that there's no disadvantage, I think enough plusses have been proposed to make a keeper league look like a good idea. But then you disagree...

In the end, it's your decision. All we're trying to do is not have you disappear. But if you don't agree, then that's up to you. I know personally I love it as it is... maybe with the idea of 2 <100 and 2 >100 coming in... But honestly, I don't see anything wrong with it as it is.

PS The adding of a priority pick for players who ended the season in the bottom 4-6 I think is fraught with danger. It would potentially lead to ACTUAL tanking later in the season if you're 12th to drop to 16th for example.... but what's far worse is that is that there's lots of ways to go badly in a season. You could have 4 absolute superstars in your side, and then WOEFUL players after that... Essentially meaning you could come to the end of the season with 4 GREAT keepers, and then get the priority also. In other words, coming last doesn't necessarily equate to having poor keepers... DL7 for example has Cotchin, Priddis, Thomas and Grigg... they'd be the envy of most players with an eye on keepers... and yet he gets the same picks as someone like JLH who has zilch? I dunno if I like that.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Furthermore, I'll be starting a new league for 2013 that will be fair and equitable for ALL participants from season to season.

Needless to say "keepers" will not form a part of it.

The league is fair and equitable. What's more you have 1 coach saying it isn't, and 17 saying it is. Is it any wonder it's the coach who's second last on the ladder doing this? I hate to accuse you of chucking a tanty because you're having a bad year, but by now you must realise that that is EXACTLY what it seems like...

I think it's a great system. The keeper aspect only adds to it. You have your opinion... the rest of us have ours. Blanket statements like "it's dumb." Don't make you right, as proven by the dozens of posts to the contrary. Your new comp, should you go for it, I'm sure will be a hit. UF is good either way. But I know which one I prefer...

There's really nothing more to it like that. No need to go taking pot shots at its design on the way out. You can't help if your opinion is the wrong one.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Yeah. One last thing. We should probably make a blanket rule that noone sign RRs waivers... that's not fair on the people that don't log in til a Thursday.

[Old Man Rivers 326]

Some serious deep breaths & chilling out needs to happen here.

My few cents worth

1. I like the Keepers concept / I can also live with the current way thing's are.

I am definately prepared to compromise from 4 Keepers down to 2

2. RR - As stated last night, you have been a big part of this comp from day one.

Last season was sensational, I was crap for most of it but building up rivalries, sledging & puting together trades kept it interesting.

The fact that we got 100% return buy in in season two, told the entire story.

Don't do it Wooders, sleep on it & make your final call tomorrow.

3. JA - I don't envy your position, it is impossible to keep all of the people happy all of the time.

Both your positions are clear here, I am sure level heads will make the correct decision.

Shame you won't be the main man in season 2013, I am unable to step up due to other commitments however will 100% support your replacement.

[Range Rover 1,935]

The league is fair and equitable. What's more you have 1 coach saying it isn't, and 17 saying it is. Is it any wonder it's the coach who's second last on the ladder doing this? I hate to accuse you of chucking a tanty because you're having a bad year, but by now you must realise that that is EXACTLY what it seems like...

Several coaches have agreed with me. It's just that I'm the only one (so far) who has been prepared to take a stand against it. Calling me out as 'chucking a tanty' doesn't make the system any less unfair.

I think it's a great system. The keeper aspect only adds to it. You have your opinion... the rest of us have ours. Blanket statements like "it's dumb." Don't make you right, as proven by the dozens of posts to the contrary. Your new comp, should you go for it, I'm sure will be a hit. UF is good either way. But I know which one I prefer...

I can understand you like the way it's set up. You're in a great 'keeper' position for next year. Mitchell, Kreuzer, Redden and Reiwoldt. Congrats.

There's really nothing more to it like that. No need to go taking pot shots at its design on the way out. You can't help if your opinion is the wrong one.

I had no intention of taking a 'potshot' at the comp until JA issued me with with what I felt was an uncalled-for ultimatum. Interesting to see in his very next post he acknowledges the problem in a far more conciliatory tone.

Clearly I am outnumbered here because only a few teams are going to be disadvantaged by this 'keepers' concept.

At the very least I hope my speaking up will have resulted in the Norm Smith League making some changes that will make it fairer for all competitors. Even if I am not in it.

[scarlett 247]

simple create poll thread with all the options, if there are 4 options then after the first poll take the top two and have another poll and that is what we go with.

[scarlett 247]

i think something does need to be done about trading out good players to get your one keeper thats not going to play again this year. its unfair on other people giving it a go, i mentioned last week or week before maybe we should have some base we can work off and say no trading for keepers until later in the year and no trading for injured keepers, takes away from the enjoyment of a win after so many narrow losses if its to someone that has 4 players fielded due to "tanking"

[JACKATTACK 17]

i think something does need to be done about trading out good players to get your one keeper thats not going to play again this year. its unfair on other people giving it a go, i mentioned last week or week before maybe we should have some base we can work off and say no trading for keepers until later in the year and no trading for injured keepers, takes away from the enjoyment of a win after so many narrow losses if its to someone that has 4 players fielded due to "tanking"

I think the perceived "white flag" problem of keeper leagues is a little over stated. The reality is, if you are a serious chance of competing in the pointy end of the season this year then you'll smash any of me, JLH and RR. And we're really the only ones who are in serious discussions about keeper trading. The net result is 0. Tanking is a separate issue to do more with the possibility of priority picks.

There is no doubt, the draft is less interesting without the keeper league, but that is the only real negative I can see. I don't pay that it is unfair, if a keeper league is unfair then basically every sporting code in the world is unfair. Would the AFL be better if at the start of every year every player re-entered the draft and teams just changed?

A keeper league adds interest for every team, not just the top 8-10. It adds intrigue on the trading block, gives you an opportunity to develop a long term relationship with your players. I love the idea I have Fyfe forever, unless I trade him, and that i took a gamble on him by taking him in the first round. i think it's great that a serious injury to your best player doesn't end your season because they hold value as a keeper for next year. I have been thinking of a way to introduce draft pick trading (maybe only in the off season). The mind boggles at the potential deals that can be struck, the relationships that can develop between demonlanders in the tos and fros of a heated trading debate. It's exciting. Get excited, get involved, think long term and be positive about it. We're here to have fun, so let's have fun.

I have an idea.

Edited June 5, 2012 by JACKATTACK

[Range Rover 1,935]

Another problem JA is that a 'keeper' from one year can get a season-ending or even a career-ending injury or simply edge towards retirement.

It's great having Fyfe for life. But what about say a Steve Johnson or a Pavlich, who may only be around for another season or two? Or in my case a Leuenberger who may never be the same player after ruining his achilles.

Yet another anomaly.

Edited June 5, 2012 by Range Rover

[scarlett 247]

so j.a you think its fair that if i decide i'm not gonna win it this year its fair for me to trade you nn adcock swallow hayes and hawkins for a keeper like fyfe, it's put you up into the eight and every team i've beatin so far this would be at a disadvantage because it is now a sure win, if i was sitting 8th and lost to someone earlier in the year before they traded out and then missed out of finals by one win to someone that played them after, i'd be [censored], luckily i dont think i'll be in that position.

[JACKATTACK 17]

An expansion on the 2 keepers + 2 >100 idea.

What about instead of rankings you have the choice of keeping 2 keepers, + 2 players aged 21 or under (or some other date).

After all that is what speculating on players is about, getting on board with a young player at the start of their career.

Another one to add to the poll I guess. I'll sort it out tomorrow, for now I need to dedicate my time to something other than demonland Ufooty.

[scarlett 247]

just for the record i like the concept of the keeper league even though i dont have the best keepers, i believe u win it with your middle players, and depth, but thats what's annoying me about people telling rr to trade out all his good players to try n get one star. and losing out on a trade that will make you uncompetitive for the rest of the year before the half way mark, that is tanking.

[JACKATTACK 17]

so j.a you think its fair that if i decide i'm not gonna win it this year its fair for me to trade you nn adcock swallow hayes and hawkins for a keeper like fyfe, it's put you up into the eight and every team i've beatin so far this would be at a disadvantage because it is now a sure win, if i was sitting 8th and lost to someone earlier in the year before they traded out and then missed out of finals by one win to someone that played them after, i'd be [censored], luckily i dont think i'll be in that position.

It's the same problem that exists in all fantasy leagues, and I have been in many. Teams lose interest and become easy beats. Some teams are lucky to get those teams later in the season. Easy beats just become easier beats. I think if you really go through the draw you would see that it makes little difference to the overall ladder, Then the finals is only between genuine teams and the best team will win.

[JACKATTACK 17]

Another problem JA is that a 'keeper' from one year can get a season-ending or even a career-ending injury or simply edge towards retirement.

It's great having Fyfe for life. But what about say a Steve Johnson or a Pavlich, who may only be around for another season or two? Or in my case a Leuenberger who may never be the same player after ruining his achilles.

Yet another anomaly.

Naturally you have to value older players lower. This year's draft tended to leave older players later for that exact reason.

Leuey will be fine mate, I have in another league (a keeper league) and I still rate him as one of the best ruckmen for the next few years.

As for injuries, well they are just plain crap. More so in a normal league though. Murphy has no value in a normal league. But because of the keeper league he retains his value, or at least most of it.

[scarlett 247]

fair enough i know what your saying there, but it has also been stated that there will be a priority pick, how is it fair that if you rr and jlh all trade out, im 4 th last and dont, that you get more compensation and a better shot at it then if i field a whole team the whole year, i'm not having a go, im impressed with the amount of time you put into this along with everyone else, i just think people losing interest is a bit different to people throwing there list out for an injured player who is going to be there keeper, not really that much different to rr saying he was gonna delist all his player, do you understand where im coming from, he's just putting up the white flag a different way.

[JACKATTACK 17]

just for the record i like the concept of the keeper league even though i dont have the best keepers, i believe u win it with your middle players, and depth, but thats what's annoying me about people telling rr to trade out all his good players to try n get one star. and losing out on a trade that will make you uncompetitive for the rest of the year before the half way mark, that is tanking.

He, like me is uncompetitive anyway. And it's not tanking, it's trading short term success for the long term, he becomes less competitive as a result. But it isn't the deliberate losing of games For the sake of losing games as is the case with tanking.

[JACKATTACK 17]

fair enough i know what your saying there, but it has also been stated that there will be a priority pick, how is it fair that if you rr and jlh all trade out, im 4 th last and dont, that you get more compensation and a better shot at it then if i field a whole team the whole year, i'm not having a go, im impressed with the amount of time you put into this along with everyone else, i just think people losing interest is a bit different to people throwing there list out for an injured player who is going to be there keeper, not really that much different to rr saying he was gonna delist all his player, do you understand where im coming from, he's just putting up the white flag a different way.

The priority pick thing is a tricky one, if done Incorrectly it could absolutely create a problem of tanking. But it won't be a straight priority either. Probably more along the lines of a mini draft for all the bottom 8/6. With a lottery system to decide who gets first pick. I'm being deliberately cagey about it because I don't want to lock it in just yet.

I completely understand your concerns, I just hope you can see the positives of the system without focusing on the negatives too much.