I still don't rate the Tiges. They are all class in the midfield, yes, but their defence is absolutely pants. Seriously. The backline reminds me of some of the awful groupings I've seen us put together over the years. Got no rucks either - one average ruckman from Adelaide does not a ruck division make.

2011 Top 4 -

Hawks for me that PF defeat will burn inside as will the Pies GF performance so I expect them to also bounce back, Cats I think will miss Ottens & Ling but still have a lot of class. Darren Glass really hobbled into the last few weeks as did Kerr and don't expect Lynch, Embley & Nicoski to have years like last year again they will be the Top 4 slider but home ground advantage and a fit Cox will see them probably stay in the 8

2011 5-8

Blues - Top 4 if Juddy can stay fit and his shoulder is right, Sydney who knows good at the SCG and just keep proving everybody wrong, Bombers will be up there if Hurley can get through unscathed but wont get early wins like last year when they were much fitter than everyone else while I expect Saints to be either falling in or knocking on the door of the 8 not sure about Scott Watters he did well with Subiaco in WAFL but was handed a Premiership team on a plate by Peter German.

2011 9-17

North will be same as ever floating around the 8 and depending on the likes of Zieball, Cunnington and Bastinac coming on could be anywhere from 7th to 14th, we will be fitter and harder to beat so that and the natural progression of our younger players should see us pushing for the 8 along with Richmond. Freo were cruelled by injuries last season but Lyon still has a lot of work today yes he is a good coach and IMO the best game day coach going around but bottom half of the 8 at best. Adelaide should improve I do like some of their kids although I think the 8 is beyond them.

I expect the same from the Doggies as this year with their stars being good at times but not every week and Ports improving with some youthful enthusiasm and Brissy for me were not belted last year and we all know how damaging anyside can be if Browny is fit and firing, if they stay fit and their impressive kids continue to develop I expect them to hit a purple patch at some stage but lack consistency.

Suns kids all face the 2nd year pressure and GWS will be awful, every year pundits say they cant see much change in the Top 8 but we are always surprised b teams improving so going out on a limb early I will have my 8 as

1. Hawks

2. Pies

3. Blues

4. Cats

5.Bombers

6.Eagles

7.Freo

8.Demons ambitious I know but having faith and we will be contesting with Roos, Tiges & Swans

I rate us above Freo and Bummers for next year purely on cattle .

I rate us above Freo and Bummers for next year purely on cattle .

I always remember Clarkson's comment before the St.Kilda game in Tassie ( round 19 , 2009 ) . ( The Saints had a whole lot of top players out ).

"It's their style of play which is the worry" or words to that effect. The Saints won fairly comfortably.

What I see next year from our Demons is a "style of play" that wins games rather than just cattle .

Edited December 23, 201113 yr by Macca

hawks, cats and pies will all be hard to beat but they're all short genuine ruck stocks so my vote goes to carlton...a fit kreuzer should see them top 4

As much as I begrudge them even the slightest glimmer of success, I must say that Carlton has done the development thing so much better than we did, thanks to the benevolence of the late Dick Pratt and Visy aided and abetted by the AFL which wanted to have a strong Carlton with a return to its big four status and it's ability to draw the crowds.

As a result, they augmented their early draft picks with some excellent imports, notably Chris Judd but also Robert Warnock and a few others who have provided lesser impact. The selection of Judd might have been made possible by the Pratt $'s but it was an inspired move. Insiders at Carlton say that Judd's influence as a mentor and one who provides an example both on and off the field has been of inestimable value to the club and the reason why it has improved to the near top four club it is today. On the other hand, Melbourne, with it's near total reliance on building youth and youth alone under Dean Bailey has floundered. We had a young, light bodied team in 2011 and we struggled against the stronger sides. I like what I'm seeing under the new coaching regime as its gone for an interesting mix of mature and young recruits with the right body types to compete against the stronger teams in the competition who we haven't been able to beat in the past half decade. I'm getting the same good feeling from the way we've been training too.

But back to Carlton, I think their strengths are concentrated in a few areas. They have a great midfield and some good small and medium forwards but they're deficient in many KP areas to challenge the top three. And they're heavily reliant on Judd and Murphy. If one or both of them suffer injuries, they will struggle (but most teams do when they lose top players).

As a result, they augmented their early draft picks with some excellent imports, notably Chris Judd but also Robert Warnock and a few others who have provided lesser impact. The selection of Judd might have been made possible by the Pratt $'s but it was an inspired move. Insiders at Carlton say that Judd's influence as a mentor and one who provides an example both on and off the field has been of inestimable value to the club and the reason why it has improved to the near top four club it is today. On the other hand, Melbourne, with it's near total reliance on building youth and youth alone under Dean Bailey has floundered. We had a young, light bodied team in 2011 and we struggled against the stronger sides.

Agreed, while we did take more mature players in Rohan Bail, Joel Macdonald and Dan Nicholson in successive drafts under Bailey we could have done more. There's very few leaders of Judd's capacity available in the trade or draft, the obvious one we missed is Luke Ball instead of Luke Tapscott in 2009 - it's good to see you've reconsidered your position on this.

Agreed, while we did take more mature players in Rohan Bail, Joel Macdonald and Dan Nicholson in successive drafts under Bailey we could have done more.

Huh ... Bail and Nicholson were each only 20 years of age when we drafted them. Bail was a late pick and Nicho's still a rookie. Joel Mac we got in the PSD. These are poor examples of going for "more mature players" when we could have chased players in their mid 20s with some class about them by good trading. Shaun Burgoyne is one who comes to mind. So do a few of the players the Swans picked up recently.

As much as I begrudge them even the slightest glimmer of success, I must say that Carlton has done the development thing so much better than we did

Agreed. It's a bit too early to call it yet, but Carlton's top draft picks certainly look to be more promising than ours.

Walker, Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer - Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove

Agreed, while we did take more mature players in Rohan Bail, Joel Macdonald and Dan Nicholson in successive drafts under Bailey we could have done more. There's very few leaders of Judd's capacity available in the trade or draft, the obvious one we missed is Luke Ball instead of Luke Tapscott in 2009 - it's good to see you've reconsidered your position on this.

Sorry Old. You must be labouring under a case of mistaken identity. My position was always that, in the post-Daniher era, we needed to adopt a policy that focused heavily on youth but also one that wasn't predicated simply on pumping games into young players when they weren't ready or in situations where they didn't have the right mix of players around them to act as mentors both on and off the ground. Not saying we could have secured a leader like Judd but we never looked like trading in a quality player in all that time until the new regime stepped in.

Anyway, it's good to see that we're now on the same page on this subtle but exciting change of approach at the club.

I'm glad that under Mark Neeld and his extended group of assistants and the wider range of skills available, the need I spoke about many times in recent years has gained recognition and acceptance. We still have one of the youngest lists around but the maturity added in the latest round of trading and drafting will help us progress a lot more quickly than we otherwise would have done relying solely on youth and waiting for light bodied players to mature.

I think that's why an astute judge such as Colin Wisbey, who being a Collingwood man knows the worth of having Neeld as our head coach, places us on top of his list of likely improvers. I also expect us to be up there competing with that tier of teams fighting it out for somewhere between 6th and 10th spot and I hold out high hopes that we'll notch at least one win against a top four team in 2012.

Agreed, while we did take more mature players in Rohan Bail, Joel Macdonald and Dan Nicholson in successive drafts under Bailey we could have done more. There's very few leaders of Judd's capacity available in the trade or draft, the obvious one we missed is Luke Ball instead of Luke Tapscott in 2009 - it's good to see you've reconsidered your position on this.

IIRC Ball only wanted to play for Collingwood and nobody else. There was also a major query about his fitness.

The impression I got was that CC said we didn't want him anyway.

Huh ... Bail and Nicholson were each only 20 years of age when we drafted them. Bail was a late pick and Nicho's still a rookie. Joel Mac we got in the PSD. These are poor examples of going for "more mature players" when we could have chased players in their mid 20s with some class about them by good trading. Shaun Burgoyne is one who comes to mind. So do a few of the players the Swans picked up recently.

It's intrigued me for some time as to what was the definition of a "mature player".

I came across this one in a Saintsational post which discusses Chris Pelchen's first trade and draft period at St. Kilda:-

... by mature, I mean any player old enough to have been picked in a previous years draft ...

This would mean that Saints' draftee Daniel Markworth, at 19 years 8 months, who played as an overage player in the TAC Cup this year is a "mature age" player, absurd as that might sound.

The fact is that the circumstances of new clubs, compromised drafts and the success of the likes of Barlow and JPod have meant that most clubs (including the MFC) have by necessity had to expand their drafting horizons and this factor will almost certainly have an impact on how they fare in the coming years.

Agreed. It's a bit too early to call it yet, but Carlton's top draft picks certainly look to be more promising than ours.

Walker, Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer - Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove

Agreed. It's a bit too early to call it yet, but Carlton's top draft picks certainly look to be more promising than ours.

Walker, Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer - Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove

you left off our no.3 draft pick sylvia off your list who i would say is at least on par with walker..watts will be a better forward 2012+ than kreuzer...trengove deffinately isn't more than a season away from gibbs without the luxury of playing accross half back...

and to compare morton to murphy is...not easy. even an optimist like myself can't help but think that cyril would look alright in red and blue.

i do think carlton is going to push for the top 4, but it will be due to their overall contributers...yarran accross half back, garlett accross half forward and a host of speedy mid-fielders in between. FF and FB are deffinately concerns which is why i compared kreuzer to watts, because i think warnock will do most of the ruck with kreuzer at FF. didn't follow them through the drafts well enough to know if they addressed the lack of back up for jamison at FB.

Hawks v Blues will play in either prelim or gf this year

Im not just saying this becuase Im Melbourne and so inherently loathe the Filth but I just dont see Collingwood maintaining that 2nd position at all. In the finals Maggies sans Neeld lacked a lot of its fire in the middle. Maggies without Mickey Mouse will be a work in progress. Dont underestimate the loss of such folk as Leroy ..or even Neon ( in season games..as opposed finals) . The Pies arent supernatural, they will need to re-mesh and fire. Theyre most likely a top 4 club but im not giving them any more than that.

Geelong..what do you say...same ol same ol...( damn!! )

Blues.... they stil lsmell of the same effluent.. Not overly convinced they will get much better. Hawthorn is the matchup for Geelong currently in my book.

But hey not a ball kicked in anger yet...lol

Cant see the Roos setting world on fire. Cant see the Sainters maintainng their status. Dogs to go yelping with tails bewteen legs.

Freo and Weagles...between them a very good team , but who's turn ?

Lions?? The feline council ought to revoke the licence to use that monicker !!

Toigs to growl a bit more in 012

GC will come on even more...watch them carefully

GWS >>>>> toilet paper

Bombers.....could be a dark horse...need to see some form but they will improve i believe

Port.... probably still at bottom of harbour me thinks.

Crows... an enigma. Might take a few seasons to come good again.

Swans. probably where they are....again !!

then theres us....... why do I feel like Charlie Brown !!!!! but may, just maybe....Lucy wont take the ball away...just maybe !! lol

if there was ever a moment we really ought to lift...its now. Go Dees

Agreed. It's a bit too early to call it yet, but Carlton's top draft picks certainly look to be more promising than ours.

Walker, Gibbs, Murphy, Kruezer - Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove

I don't think you can really fault the way Carlton has gone about its recruiting of more mature age players to augment their list of high draft picks over the past three or four years.

It's not just the high cost, big money players like Judd, Warnock and McLean (ok - one fail but he's still depth) but the likes of Curnow, Duigan and Laidler all contributed to their improvement in 2011.

Discount them at your own peril.

I don't think you can really fault the way Carlton has gone about its recruiting of more mature age players to augment their list of high draft picks over the past three or four years.

It's not just the high cost, big money players like Judd, Warnock and McLean (ok - one fail but he's still depth) but the likes of Curnow, Duigan and Laidler all contributed to their improvement in 2011.

Discount them at your own peril.

I discount them. They will make the 8, but not seriously challenge. Other teams are better.

I discount them. They will make the 8, but not seriously challenge. Other teams are better.

I agree... hugely over rated, mainly by themselves. A top 8 team simply because they arent a bottom 8 team. Top 4 ? Nahh !! far too Judd centric..As good as he is he actually is the reason they WONT make it to the top. A beautiful irony isnt it

I agree... hugely over rated, mainly by themselves. A top 8 team simply because they arent a bottom 8 team. Top 4 ? Nahh !! far too Judd centric..As good as he is he actually is the reason they WONT make it to the top. A beautiful irony isnt it

ju$$ is all class, he is not the reason. The backline still leaks when under pressure.

Not too sure about the mighty sainters slipping down the ladder - but must say I agree on his doubts around the Pies in 2012 and also the fact that the Mighty Dees will be a likely improver

ju$$ is all class, he is not the reason. The backline still leaks when under pressure.

You mihgt be missing the point.. Yes Judd is a rung above them al at carlton... and they play very judd centric. Days he doesnt fire up they slump.. days he's 'on' they focus too much on him. Its not a very balanced team at all.. Look at the likes of what Geelong are, Collingwood were/sorta still are. ...much more eveley spread across the field. Cartlon went all out to secure Judd.. . eggs in one basket etc. We'll win another premiership before they do .

Not too sure about the mighty sainters slipping down the ladder - but must say I agree on his doubts around the Pies in 2012 and also the fact that the Mighty Dees will be a likely improver

On what are you going to base that they wont slide ?. Their better players are pensioners now. Whos going to score goals.? whos going to stop them ? Can they muster an A grade midfield ?

all in all theyre looking pretty average for 2012. Shame.. I like the Sainters.

verdict...window shut

You mihgt be missing the point.. Yes Judd is a rung above them al at carlton... and they play very judd centric. Days he doesnt fire up they slump.. days he's 'on' they focus too much on him. Its not a very balanced team at all.. Look at the likes of what Geelong are, Collingwood were/sorta still are. ...much more eveley spread across the field. Cartlon went all out to secure Judd.. . eggs in one basket etc. We'll win another premiership before they do .

I know how Ju$$ plays. He is not there only midfielder.

The defence will expose Carlscum. If Kruezer fires they will be a disturbance.

agree with WJ regarding the WA teams.

Eagles played out of their skin in 2011. Freo were injured all year long.

Would expect them to be around the same mark this year, both finish just inside or outside the 8

You mihgt be missing the point.. Yes Judd is a rung above them al at carlton... and they play very judd centric. Days he doesnt fire up they slump.. days he's 'on' they focus too much on him. Its not a very balanced team at all.. Look at the likes of what Geelong are, Collingwood were/sorta still are. ...much more eveley spread across the field. Cartlon went all out to secure Judd.. . eggs in one basket etc. We'll win another premiership before they do .

That is a very big statement BB.

I cannot agree with you.

IMO if the cards fall the right way the Blues might have a chance in the next couple of years before Judd expires.

The Dees are 4 - 5 years away from the top 4 IMO.

I discount them. They will make the 8, but not seriously challenge. Other teams are better.

i honestly think that they should have given Fev the fairy tale and picked him up to finish his career in navy blue. Could have been the last piece of the puzzle that they need to be a serious contender, rather than a team that thrashes poor side which allow their mid fielders to kick bags of goals (ie US!)

i honestly think that they should have given Fev the fairy tale and picked him up to finish his career in navy blue. Could have been the last piece of the puzzle that they need to be a serious contender, rather than a team that thrashes poor side which allow their mid fielders to kick bags of goals (ie US!)

i was a little suprised too. I know Fev REALLY wanted to go back to Carlscum and a 1 year base contract from a team that does lack a class big forward. But there you go. Good luck for MFC. I hate carlscum!!