On 08/12/2011 at 00:19, hardtack said:

Fair enough... but I would argue that the captaincy is something that must be earned (performance/experience based) and it should not automatically be assumed that because a player was captain this year, he will carry the mantle again next year - as long as the players understand this, it shouldn't be an issue... and who knows, it may be just the carrot on a stick that some of the players need to lift their games?

Moloney and Jones have both been performing well consistently, Trengove is performing well, but is still lacking experience and Grimes, well, he hasn't really been performing at all due to not being able to take to the field.

Of course it should be earned HT, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't think JT or JG have earned the job...yet. A lot of supporters think they have. I think, out of Jones, Moloney, Grimes and Trengove, that JG and JT have got the potential to be future leaders, obviously they need to fulfil this potential, otherwise I'll be the first to say that they don't deserve to be captain. But, if they fulfil that potential in the next 12 months (meaning they could be ready to go in 2013), then what do we do about 2012? I don't want to see Moloney or Jones get it for 12 months, then find that it is given to someone else. That's why I think Green is the logical choice. He WILL be a better Captain in 2012, becuase he will have to play better footy if he wants to play in 2013.

I think JT will make a great captain of the MFC, but i also think if he becomes captain in 2013-14 he will be that much better. It's just a gut feel. But if Neeld gives the C to JT next year i will fully back him. Preseason is still in progress. These Demonland Forums get read by all the journo's don't they!! We are not alone.....

  On 08/12/2011 at 01:46, why you little said:

These Demonland Forums get read by all the journo's don't they!! We are not alone.....

Maybe we should all start putting little copyright symbols on our posts ;-)

© 2011

Hardtrack @#21.

No captain is a good idea. Natural born leaders will emerge on the field anyway.

But Trengrove as spokesman

  On 07/12/2011 at 23:47, billy2803 said:

I've been saying this for ages Dr.

My key points;

* Trengove is still 1 season away from me being able to entertain the idea. As Robbie Flower said in those articles, he needs to concentrate on his own personal development this year, and I feel a place in the leadership team will help him develop his leadhership abilities, as well as working on his on-field individual responsibilities.

* Grimes just needs to stay fit. Give me 1 full season Jack, and I will definitely look at you in 2013.

* Moloney, well, I'm just not sure. He loves the Club, bleeds red & blue, but I really do think going in to our window tha twe would be served better by one of the 2 above leading us. Becuase of his passion for the Club, it would be criminal to give him the job for 1 or 2 years, only to give it to JT or JG when they are ready (which I'm sure can be as of 2013).

* Jones (see Moloney).

* Frawley - not mature enough off-field. A Captain needs to lead both on and off, he's only 50% there at the moment.

* Green should have 2 years left of his career, even though he is on a one year contract. He is a proud man, and has a lot to prove in 2012. If he wants to be there in 2013, he will regain his 2010 form next season, and I think he is the logical choice for Captain in 2012.

We are trying to build a different culture at the MFC, and while Green may not have performed how a Captain should in many games in 2011, I think he will be better for the experience. He wouldn't be the first captain tha thad a shocker in his first year and made up for it in his 2nd.

I think you sum things up well here, but who for Captain, Green again?

  On 08/12/2011 at 01:51, hardtack said:

Maybe we should all start putting little copyright symbols on our posts ;-)

© 2011

cool.

  On 08/12/2011 at 02:22, Jordie_tackles said:

I think you sum things up well here, but who for Captain, Green again?

Providing he does what's asked by Neeld throughout preseason, and assuming he still has the respect of the players, which would take longer to lose than some supporters, I'd say Green makes sense.

I'd be suprised if we were to challenge for the Top 4 in 2012, so it's a great opportunity to have Moloney, Grimes, Jones, JT, Chip and maybe even Watts in the LG, and it's up to those guys to use the next 12 months to stamp themselves as leaders. But, if by some chance we are charging up the ladder, I'm confident Green will be playing a big role in that.

Yeah Green again IMO

He's only got 1-2 years left in him, so i'd let him stay captain. Trengove will be captain one day, but i wouldnt rush him into it now. Any other choice would only be a stop gap captain like Jr ened up being

  On 07/12/2011 at 23:47, billy2803 said:

I've been saying this for ages Dr.

My key points;

* Trengove is still 1 season away from me being able to entertain the idea. As Robbie Flower said in those articles, he needs to concentrate on his own personal development this year, and I feel a place in the leadership team will help him develop his leadhership abilities, as well as working on his on-field individual responsibilities.

* Grimes just needs to stay fit. Give me 1 full season Jack, and I will definitely look at you in 2013.

* Moloney, well, I'm just not sure. He loves the Club, bleeds red & blue, but I really do think going in to our window tha twe would be served better by one of the 2 above leading us. Becuase of his passion for the Club, it would be criminal to give him the job for 1 or 2 years, only to give it to JT or JG when they are ready (which I'm sure can be as of 2013).

* Jones (see Moloney).

* Frawley - not mature enough off-field. A Captain needs to lead both on and off, he's only 50% there at the moment.

* Green should have 2 years left of his career, even though he is on a one year contract. He is a proud man, and has a lot to prove in 2012. If he wants to be there in 2013, he will regain his 2010 form next season, and I think he is the logical choice for Captain in 2012.

We are trying to build a different culture at the MFC, and while Green may not have performed how a Captain should in many games in 2011, I think he will be better for the experience. He wouldn't be the first captain tha thad a shocker in his first year and made up for it in his 2nd.

Have to agree with this line of thinking also

I'd really like to be able to post my thoughts on who I believe is the BEST man for the job but the reality is that I have no friggen idea. I don't know them personally and I don't see how they interact with the club on a daily basis and how much the other players look up to individuals.

I'm sure whoever is chosen I'll be pleasantly surprised however I'm tempted to reserve the right to critisize the decision in 12 months time if it all turns pear shaped.

Green was not Robinson Crusoe in having a poor 2011, he realised it and my mail is he sought advice from several people on how to deal with it. He has been a good servant to the club and IMO should get 1 more year even if it is in a co-captaincy role with a contingency plan in place to hand over to JT, Grimes or chip whoever they deem as the best candidate.

  On 08/12/2011 at 02:38, DemonWA said:

Yeah Green again IMO

He's only got 1-2 years left in him, so i'd let him stay captain. Trengove will be captain one day, but i wouldnt rush him into it now. Any other choice would only be a stop gap captain like Jr ened up being

What does this mean?

Junior was a stopgap?

To whom?

He was a fine captain, and his absence in 2011 hurt us more than many thought. He was a fantastic leader for this club and more than a 'stopgap.'

If you mean a 'short term' captain then I can understand.

Stopgap implies that the person in the position is a placeholder - destined to vacate when a better candidate is deemed suitable.

Junior was hardly that.

I sometimes teach some youth leadership training stuff, and one of the essential things is that you can't lead someone, where you haven't been yourself. Its ridiculous for me to think a guy my age, could be considered to lead MFC. And really, its not because he's 20 or 21 or anything, its because he hasn't experienced and dealt with all the stuff that is going to confront him. At best he can keep things even, he cant advance on anything, because he's still experiencing everything for the first time himself. He hasn't held a midfield up and battled the injuries like Moloney, he hasn't become all-australian and become a premier player like Frawley, he hasn't worked so hard on his game he's gone from a nobody to all-aussie like Jamar, etc etc. He needs to have the experience first.

  On 07/12/2011 at 23:47, billy2803 said:

I've been saying this for ages Dr.

My key points;

* Trengove is still 1 season away from me being able to entertain the idea. As Robbie Flower said in those articles, he needs to concentrate on his own personal development this year, and I feel a place in the leadership team will help him develop his leadhership abilities, as well as working on his on-field individual responsibilities.

* Grimes just needs to stay fit. Give me 1 full season Jack, and I will definitely look at you in 2013.

* Moloney, well, I'm just not sure. He loves the Club, bleeds red & blue, but I really do think going in to our window tha twe would be served better by one of the 2 above leading us. Becuase of his passion for the Club, it would be criminal to give him the job for 1 or 2 years, only to give it to JT or JG when they are ready (which I'm sure can be as of 2013).

* Jones (see Moloney).

* Frawley - not mature enough off-field. A Captain needs to lead both on and off, he's only 50% there at the moment.

* Green should have 2 years left of his career, even though he is on a one year contract. He is a proud man, and has a lot to prove in 2012. If he wants to be there in 2013, he will regain his 2010 form next season, and I think he is the logical choice for Captain in 2012.

We are trying to build a different culture at the MFC, and while Green may not have performed how a Captain should in many games in 2011, I think he will be better for the experience. He wouldn't be the first captain tha thad a shocker in his first year and made up for it in his 2nd.

You left out Jamar - a possible smokey for Captain

  On 13/12/2011 at 13:11, longsuffering said:

You left out Jamar - a possible smokey for Captain

He hasn't been in the Leadership Group at all in his career.

That is not a good sign for a 27 year old and his leadership credentials.

  On 13/12/2011 at 13:11, longsuffering said:

You left out Jamar - a possible smokey for Captain

Jamar is in the Top 3 rucks in the league. We have a group of young talls that need as much help with their development as possible. Jamar will be a fantastic leader of the ruck brigade, and doesn't need an offical title to do this. He may get a spot in the Leadership Group, but that's where it stops for me. I want him to concentrate on staying one of the best rucks.

  On 08/12/2011 at 03:51, rpfc said:

What does this mean?

Junior was a stopgap?

To whom?

He was a fine captain, and his absence in 2011 hurt us more than many thought. He was a fantastic leader for this club and more than a 'stopgap.'

If you mean a 'short term' captain then I can understand.

Stopgap implies that the person in the position is a placeholder - destined to vacate when a better candidate is deemed suitable.

Junior was hardly that.

That wasnt my intended interpretation!

I dont like the idea of short term captains, so just like Junior was only given a small time as captain i wouldnt like to see Green given 1 year only.

  On 14/12/2011 at 00:24, DemonWA said:

That wasnt my intended interpretation!

I dont like the idea of short term captains, so just like Junior was only given a small time as captain i wouldnt like to see Green given 1 year only.

Short term captains can be very effective. Geelong had Harley for three years and Ling for two as captain.

If Green can only manage 1 year as captain because that is the way the cards fall then that is just the way life sometimes works out.

On the positive side - he got to captain this great club, and there are not many who can say that.

  On 14/12/2011 at 01:04, rpfc said:

Short term captains can be very effective. Geelong had Harley for three years and Ling for two as captain.

If Green can only manage 1 year as captain because that is the way the cards fall then that is just the way life sometimes works out.

On the positive side - he got to captain this great club, and there are not many who can say that.

Ling was made Captain because the logical choice, and the new expected Captain, Selwood, was too young.

  On 08/12/2011 at 03:35, Jarka said:

I'd really like to be able to post my thoughts on who I believe is the BEST man for the job but the reality is that I have no friggen idea. I don't know them personally and I don't see how they interact with the club on a daily basis and how much the other players look up to individuals.

I'm sure whoever is chosen I'll be pleasantly surprised however I'm tempted to reserve the right to critisize the decision in 12 months time if it all turns pear shaped.

It will be left to those in charge at the club to come to the decision in the best interests for the club. I'm much the same, I have my thoughts but really NFI of what is considered internally and for all I know they could well re-appoint Green for another season. Which would no doubt put a smile on the dial of billy2803. It would also almost confirm the next captain will be one of the youthful candidates (ie. Grimes, Trengove, Watts), and sooner rather than later.

I see many varying viewpoints and can relate to all. The reason why there is no absolute monty is because of the lack of solid senior leadership and the hesitation to give it to others considered too young or prefer them to concentrate on their footy first and foremost.

That said, I am one for change with leadership, as it's up for grabs this summer, and would applaud and support a bold move in a up and coming leader with good support.

I don't agree with the ageist views of being too young (or too old for that matter). As long as you're setting the right example on and off the field and consistently lead by example.

  On 14/12/2011 at 02:09, H_T said:

It will be left to those in charge at the club to come to the decision in the best interests for the club. I'm much the same, I have my thoughts but really NFI of what is considered internally and for all I know they could well re-appoint Green for another season. Which would no doubt put a smile on the dial of billy2803. It would also almost confirm the next captain will be one of the youthful candidates (ie. Grimes, Trengove, Watts), and sooner rather than later.

I see many varying viewpoints and can relate to all. The reason why there is no absolute monty is because of the lack of solid senior leadership and the hesitation to give it to others considered too young or prefer them to concentrate on their footy first and foremost.

That said, I am one for change with leadership, as it's up for grabs this summer, and would applaud and support a bold move in a up and coming leader with good support.

I don't agree with the ageist views of being too young (or too old for that matter). As long as you're setting the right example on and off the field and consistently lead by example.

C'mon HT, it's not about making me feel warm and fuzzy, it's about what is best for the team. Like you, I'll happily support the decision of the Club. Any decision the Club makes I support regardless of what it is, as I have absolutely no say in it, and it's just easier to go along with and trust those in charge.

Putting Jack Trengove in charge of this team when he has so much to learn himself would be a bad decision. There has been umpteen changes at the Club in the past few months, there will obviously be a change in game plan, and while change is up there with death and taxes, we still need "some" stability or common ground. While it may only be a small piece, for the players to walk on the the ground behind Greeny might be what's required.

I personally do believe there is such a thing as too young to be named captain. It takes a very special player to be able to do it, and while rate Jack very highly, he's not there yet.

  On 07/12/2011 at 23:47, billy2803 said:

I've been saying this for ages Dr.

My key points;

* Trengove is still 1 season away from me being able to entertain the idea. As Robbie Flower said in those articles, he needs to concentrate on his own personal development this year, and I feel a place in the leadership team will help him develop his leadhership abilities, as well as working on his on-field individual responsibilities.

* Grimes just needs to stay fit. Give me 1 full season Jack, and I will definitely look at you in 2013.

* Moloney, well, I'm just not sure. He loves the Club, bleeds red & blue, but I really do think going in to our window tha twe would be served better by one of the 2 above leading us. Becuase of his passion for the Club, it would be criminal to give him the job for 1 or 2 years, only to give it to JT or JG when they are ready (which I'm sure can be as of 2013).

* Jones (see Moloney).

* Frawley - not mature enough off-field. A Captain needs to lead both on and off, he's only 50% there at the moment.

* Green should have 2 years left of his career, even though he is on a one year contract. He is a proud man, and has a lot to prove in 2012. If he wants to be there in 2013, he will regain his 2010 form next season, and I think he is the logical choice for Captain in 2012.

We are trying to build a different culture at the MFC, and while Green may not have performed how a Captain should in many games in 2011, I think he will be better for the experience. He wouldn't be the first captain tha thad a shocker in his first year and made up for it in his 2nd.

I of course have no clue, but agree with the above that it should remain Green, unless he doesn't really want the distraction again & Moloney's happy to do it for just a year or 2 rather than not at all. It's still a great honour & are you all sure Beamer wouldn't want it?

  On 14/12/2011 at 01:25, billy2803 said:

Ling was made Captain because the logical choice, and the new expected Captain, Selwood, was too young.

I don't disagree, and I don't know what your point is.

Short term captains can work. Green might work for one more year. Moloney might work for three years. Trengove might work right now.

But that's the issue - it's a whole lot of might and not a lot of certainty...

The best leader over the Pre-season of 2011-12, according to Neeld and co., should captain the club (with the possibility of shared captaincy).

  On 16/12/2011 at 01:00, rpfc said:

I don't disagree, and I don't know what your point is.

Short term captains can work. Green might work for one more year. Moloney might work for three years. Trengove might work right now.

But that's the issue - it's a whole lot of might and not a lot of certainty...

The best leader over the Pre-season of 2011-12, according to Neeld and co., should captain the club (with the possibility of shared captaincy).

It was more directed at those who think that it would be ok to have JT in the role, even if he isn't quite ready for it.

I do actually believe that Green was/is a stop-gap, and to be honest, I reckon Junior was pretty bloody close. Providing they can perform to the required standards for the term, I think a Captain should be a 3-5 year task. Sign up when the are around 23/24, go to their late 20's, then hand over to the next 23/24 year old and let the outgoing Captain have a couple of years to finish out their career. There will no doubt be the exception, but as a standard practice, that's how I see it.

I know I'm going to get shot down for this but Junior and Green were made Captains because they were the best leaders we had. They did a job because we had bugger all else. In my ideal world, we would've had other options (that met my criteria above) but alas, we didn't.

  On 16/12/2011 at 01:20, billy2803 said:

It was more directed at those who think that it would be ok to have JT in the role, even if he isn't quite ready for it.

I do actually believe that Green was/is a stop-gap, and to be honest, I reckon Junior was pretty bloody close. Providing they can perform to the required standards for the term, I think a Captain should be a 3-5 year task. Sign up when the are around 23/24, go to their late 20's, then hand over to the next 23/24 year old and let the outgoing Captain have a couple of years to finish out their career. There will no doubt be the exception, but as a standard practice, that's how I see it.

I know I'm going to get shot down for this but Junior and Green were made Captains because they were the best leaders we had. They did a job because we had bugger all else. In my ideal world, we would've had other options (that met my criteria above) but alas, we didn't.

Please don't lump the captaincy of Junior in with Green - one was for more suited to the role than the other.

Ling got the captaincy because he was the best leader they had and he became a flag-winning captain.

Every captaincy should be considered 'short term' as it should be a year-to-year concept, as it is with Maxwell at Collingwood.

He has to win it every year and he doesn't want it any other way.

Just give it to best leader(s) over this pre-season.