Will anybody come out to watch them play?

[dees189227 12,373]

The NRL are so paranoid about GWS coming into there town. Thats why Phil Gould went back to penrith to help them. NRL is different because the clubs dont need the big membership numbers and crowds to help teams financially. Some of the grounds are still surburban looking that dont hold much. They get excited if they get 30,000. Nrl fans watch there teams more on the box, hence why there ratings are higher than ours. I remember Russell Crowe going on the NRL footy show and getting all excited because they just signed there 1000 member.

In a way I want GWS to fail so we can laugh at the AFL and tell them you stuffed up and also because of a certain player but on the other hand if some juniors had a crack at auskick and numbers grew then that would be nice.

PS I know the thread is closed but Greg Denham just said on SEN pettard should have been mark of the year. He was nice to us! Also Kevin went on this site and read out some posts that had been written about Greg. He dint say to much.

[hardtack 10,520]

If the AFL are trying to "tak over" this area, they will fail. I don't think that is their goal; it's more about having the brand out their and to share the market place, not dominate it. Just like they are doing at the Gold Coast, and just like they have done in Brisbane and Sydney in the years past.

I think the AFL probably realises that they don't have to "take over" anything from the NRL. The NRL doesn't do particularly well when it comes to attracting crowds (particularly families) so the AFL would realise that there is plenty of the pie to go around. The NRL however is aware of its poor image, particularly in its lack of ability to attract the family element, and so they really do feel threatened. It only needs the AFL to attract 2,000 away from each NRL gate on top of the southern state expats and local AFL supporters and they will start to feel the pinch. For the AFL, success in Sydney would be just a little more icing on the cake.

As for those NRL teams surviving? Since I moved to Sydney in 1979 I have followed three NRL teams... firstly Newtown Jets who dropped out of the competition a couple of years later, then North Sydney Bears who were later merged with Manly Sea Eagles to become the Central Coast team (which later reverted to Manly and Norths were suddenly extinct) and finally South Sydney Rabbitohs who then also disappeared... they did manage to do a Lazarus (not the Canberra Raiders/Melbourne Storm variety) and come back with the help of Andrew Denton and Russell Crowe among others, but have never been quite the same club since. The Super League/NRL battle didn't help matters along either and I think this may be one reason that the game has lost its "shine" here... people just don't feel confident with the administration which is shambolic when compared with their AFL.counterparts (regardless of what we like to think of the fat controller).

Edited November 9, 2011 by hardtack

[The Chazz 4,077]

The NRL are so paranoid about GWS coming into there town. Thats why Phil Gould went back to penrith to help them. NRL is different because the clubs dont need the big membership numbers and crowds to help teams financially. Some of the grounds are still surburban looking that dont hold much. They get excited if they get 30,000. Nrl fans watch there teams more on the box, hence why there ratings are higher than ours. I remember Russell Crowe going on the NRL footy show and getting all excited because they just signed there 1000 member.

In a way I want GWS to fail so we can laugh at the AFL and tell them you stuffed up and also because of a certain player but on the other hand if some juniors had a crack at auskick and numbers grew then that would be nice.

PS I know the thread is closed but Greg Denham just said on SEN pettard should have been mark of the year. He was nice to us! Also Kevin went on this site and read out some posts that had been written about Greg. He dint say to much.

Penrith have been struggling a lot longer than since the arrival of GWS. But, people will believe what they want to, and most will think that it is because of the GWS influence.

The AFL knows that they had a very slight window to hit Penrith where it hurts. They needed to have instant success to generate the exposure and interest, and potentially take away a large supporter base from these suburbs. The AFL created rules that would make it easier for the GWS to obtain a better quality list, with better mature-aged players, to make sure they had that immediate success on-field (not necissarily meaning a premiership), but the GWS didn't play by the rules that the AFL wanted them to play by, and decided to go down the youth pathwya and build a flag (not unlike what we are trying), and also pick up semi-retired players who are getting a bit of a super top-up. This was not the intentions of the AFL, and they are ropable that this is how it has turned out.

The NRL, and Penrith, now have at least 5 years of development in this area. All NRL clubs are realising that memberships are quite a financially rewarding option, and we will continue to see slight increases each year in this category. The TV rights of the NRL are expected to go close to reaching the massive figures of the AFL, which is a huge thing for the NRL.

GWS had the opportunity to cause the NRL some serious headaches. I don't see them causing them too many for the next decade +.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I think the AFL probably realises that they don't have to "take over" anything from the NRL. The NRL doesn't do particularly well when it comes to attracting crowds (particularly families) so the AFL would realise that there is plenty of the pie to go around. The NRL however is aware of its poor image, particularly in its lack of ability to attract the family element, and so they really do feel threatened. It only needs the AFL to attract 2,000 away from each NRL gate on top of the southern state expats and local AFL supporters and they will start to feel the pinch. For the AFL, success in Sydney would be just a little more icing on the cake.

As for those NRL teams surviving? Since I moved to Sydney in 1979 I have followed three NRL teams... firstly Newtown Jets who dropped out of the competition a couple of years later, then North Sydney Bears who were later merged with Manly Sea Eagles to become the Central Coast team (which later reverted to Manly and Norths were suddenly extinct) and finally South Sydney Rabbitohs who then also disappeared... they did manage to do a Lazarus (not the Canberra Raiders/Melbourne Storm variety) and come back with the help of Andrew Denton and Russell Crowe among others, but have never been quite the same club since. The Super League/NRL battle didn't help matters along either and I think this may be one reason that the game has lost its "shine" here... people just don't feel confident with the administration which is shambolic when compared with there their AFL.counterparts (regardless of what we like to think of the fat controller).

To try and get families to support GWS, and convert a few RL followers to AFL, onfield performace was/is vital. We will know more this time next year, but I can't see how GWS will produce a standard of football with their current list that will not see multiple 100+ point floggings. That is not great marketing for the Club.

The "family aspect" also comes from things off-field such as player behaviour. Traditional RL parents may steer their kids to AFL if the NRL clubs don't clean up the act of some of their stars (see Todd Carney). These guys aren't the best role models, so it's an avenue, but I do know for a fact that the NRL are spending A LOT of money for ALL clubs to make sure that player welfare is one of the top priorities.

[rpfc 28,271]

I'm not sure where the pokies law comes in to it? If you are thinking it's because of the amount of leagues clubs/gaming venues that teh NRL clubs have, and rely on to make an income, I'm pretty sure the AFL clubs have that too. Calrton will most definitely be one club that will take a hit if that were to be the case.

But on one hand, you're saying that because the AFL can pump funds in to PA and North and Us, etc, and that's accepted practice, but if the NRL had to pump money in to the western suburb teams, that's not a sign of good health?

I'm quite sure all NRL clubs will benefit from the increased revenue from the TV rights.

The main point I'm trying to make is that the NRL isn't as f**ked as some people believe, or are trying to make others believe. This thread had a very one-sided opinion, which a lot generated from a weak news article. I questioned it, which is always fun to do on DL!

What I am saying is that the AFL is pumping money everywhere - first and foremost - the emerging market that is west Sydney.

The NRL isn't pumping money anywhere at the minute and when they do - it will be west Sydney.

It doesn't bode well when you are spending all your time and alot of your money in your own backyard.

And the league clubs rely so heavily on their venues making money.

It's just a sad fact.

I'm not saying the NRL is stuffed, I am saying they are poorly managed and stuck in a malaise of their own making. They still haven't got their independent commission and teams are hurting.

[The Chazz 4,077]

What I am saying is that the AFL is pumping money everywhere - first and foremost - the emerging market that is west Sydney.

The NRL isn't pumping money anywhere at the minute and when they do - it will be west Sydney.

It doesn't bode well when you are spending all your time and alot of your money in your own backyard.

And the league clubs rely so heavily on their venues making money.

It's just a sad fact.

I'm not saying the NRL is stuffed, I am saying they are poorly managed and stuck in a malaise of their own making. They still haven't got their independent commission and teams are hurting.

I don't think that's 100% accurate RPFC. The NRL are pumping money in to a lot of areas. Yes, they have been poorly managed, but it is changing. The AFLSS ones will believe it's becuase of the GWS factor. But the change has been happening for a lot longer than that, and as they say, "Rome wasn't built in a day". I'm not saying that the NRL will become Rome, I will always be in the AFL corner for such arguements.

The NRL are sharing the love. No doubt more money will be invested in to the western suburbs (aka the heartland), but isn't that what the AFL have been doing for the past decade - pouring money in to its heartland? Ie. North, Western Bulldogs, Melbourne, etc.

[H_T 3,043]

You had me RPFC until this part.

And IF GWS doesn't have an impact, which will be more likely in the short to medium term, NRL won't have anything to worry about. Put it this way, those western suburb clubs won't go backwards.

I just can't see how GWS will be successful enough in the first 3-7 years to expect to change the sporting landscape in that area. I hope I'm not wrong.

I think the AFL's viewpoint is - which has been expressed before - is that this project is a 20-30 year project. They understand the hurdles to overcome, and they'll fund it as necessary until it's on it's own two feet. They know they might not be successful in the first few years. They will support GWS until the Western Sydneyites learn to love the game and become superior sports lovers - like Melbournians before them.

This is a generational change project.

Edited November 10, 2011 by H_T
Addition.

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

Manly are doing well right now aern't they! My biggest fear of free agency. The mid year pact between coaches/players to all leave en masse for a new home.

Let's see how this plays out.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Billy..the whole point of rasing the notion of how things actually ARE in NSW as opposed to how the Mexican press portray it is to suggest that anyone not assimilated by League and having at least a reasonable level of perspective will notice that whilst there is obviously a following of the game in qld and nsw ( nrl ) they dont sem half as passionate about barracking for it. What is extremely prevalent though is the junior game up there. This is big time. It strangely falls off a cliff once you get to senior level. Junior levels are attended en mass..every weekend hundreds of thousands of mums dads aunts uncles cousins line the sidelines and cheer. Come game day(s) for League and its the pub or the loungeroom telly.

So what is this all about ? The culture of the two games is different. If the AFL can harness anything and translate it to bums on seats ( even if its giving away tix) then it will grown its brand over time. Theres a different sort of commitment here. Watching telly can be as fickle as a button on a remote control.. Thats the real enemy of League. Its competing with all the other programs, and now the interloper.

Funny you mention State of Origin....as The larger attendences for League SOO are in qld and ....Vic. Even in its grass roots state it isnt as manifest as youd think. Yes the media build it up...what doesnt the media try to build up in repsective markets but youll get a bigger crowd to a Carlton Collingwood h/a game than a SOO in Sydney... Our Anzac day bash almost trivilaises their ( nrl ) grand final ffs.

The NRl are running scared and trying to bolster their brand in qld.. I dont think for a minute the AFL has anything like a cakewalk in establishing the game in Western Sydney. Personally id rather they spend all that money into differetn start ups with a more speedy return for the comp but what is done is done.

As rpfc rightly points out many clubs in the NRL operate on precarious fiscal footings. Yes, so do some AFL. There seems at any given time a worry amongst NRL teams regarding stability of existence. The history of that league in modern times has seen the shutting down and merging of many franchises. This is its constant state, and it weakens their brand.

Historically much strength for the NRL has been the Sydney centric nature of the league. Like the VFL before AFL it was parochial to a State and kudos to them for ensnaring the Kiwi interest. It had to, as it did in establisihing more higher level presence out of regions nth of Brisbane. There is for mione one simple difference in the motive for the two codes. AFL is permeating the outer reaches in order to Dominate. The NRL hopes to est anywhere in order to survive.

It will be interesting watching.

[rpfc 28,271]

I don't think that's 100% accurate RPFC. The NRL are pumping money in to a lot of areas. Yes, they have been poorly managed, but it is changing. The AFLSS ones will believe it's becuase of the GWS factor. But the change has been happening for a lot longer than that, and as they say, "Rome wasn't built in a day". I'm not saying that the NRL will become Rome, I will always be in the AFL corner for such arguements.

The NRL are sharing the love. No doubt more money will be invested in to the western suburbs (aka the heartland), but isn't that what the AFL have been doing for the past decade - pouring money in to its heartland? Ie. North, Western Bulldogs, Melbourne, etc.

Where is the NRL money being spent?

In and only their heartland:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/cash-row-puts-four-nrl-clubs-on-the-brink/story-e6frg7mf-1226165286325

The AFL are putting their money into expanding the competition in addition to shoring up The Heartland ©.

It's a narrow but deep distinction.

[Radar Detector 1,347]

I'm assuming you're calling the NRL the IGA of the sporting world and the AFL is the Woolies? That's the AFLSS I'm talking about, absolutely ridiculous comment

I tend to agree with this. How anybody could think that the NRL are afraid of AFL's push into GWS is beyond me. The NRL are the incumbent and their brand there is strong.

Whilst the NRL have probably tinkered their fixturing to knock some of the wind out of the Giants' sails early, I doubt they would be losing much sleep over the AFL's foray. It will be decades before they draw genuinely good crowds around the 20,000 mark (without handouts and freebies) if indeed they ever get there. Don't underestimate the apathy of supporters in the area to sport in general, let alone sports they have no emotional or traditional affiliation with.

[beelzebub 23,313]

I tend to agree with this. How anybody could think that the NRL are afraid of AFL's push into GWS is beyond me. The NRL are the incumbent and their brand there is strong.

Whilst the NRL have probably tinkered their fixturing to knock some of the wind out of the Giants' sails early, I doubt they would be losing much sleep over the AFL's foray. It will be decades before they draw genuinely good crowds around the 20,000 mark (without handouts and freebies) if indeed they ever get there. Don't underestimate the apathy of supporters in the area to sport in general, let alone sports they have no emotional or traditional affiliation with.

its exactly this sort of thinking that has seen many an empire beaten by an adversary, they thought they were unbeatable. They were the status quo and would always be, History shows they were mugs !!

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,706]

I tend to agree with this. How anybody could think that the NRL are afraid of AFL's push into GWS is beyond me. The NRL are the incumbent and their brand there is strong.

Whilst the NRL have probably tinkered their fixturing to knock some of the wind out of the Giants' sails early, I doubt they would be losing much sleep over the AFL's foray. It will be decades before they draw genuinely good crowds around the 20,000 mark (without handouts and freebies) if indeed they ever get there. Don't underestimate the apathy of supporters in the area to sport in general, let alone sports they have no emotional or traditional affiliation with.

Or, you could have written in the early 1960s..."I tend to agree with this. How anybody could think that the USA are afraid of Japan's push into car making is beyond me. The USA are the incumbent and their brand there is strong."

I suspect David Gallop (who I think has the hardest job in Australia) would be worried as much about the AFL's aggressive approach as he would be concerned about the inability of his superiors to realise what the NRL has to do to protect its position.

[daisycutter 29,605]

If it works it will take a generation to get that emotional/traditional/tribal connection

there will be a lot of money blown in a generation but (the but is for rpfc cos i know he loves 'em)

[The Chazz 4,077]

its exactly this sort of thinking that has seen many an empire beaten by an adversary, they thought they were unbeatable. They were the status quo and would always be, History shows they were mugs !!

Or, you could have written in the early 1960s..."I tend to agree with this. How anybody could think that the USA are afraid of Japan's push into car making is beyond me. The USA are the incumbent and their brand there is strong."

I suspect David Gallop (who I think has the hardest job in Australia) would be worried as much about the AFL's aggressive approach as he would be concerned about the inability of his superiors to realise what the NRL has to do to protect its position.

Well done guys, find something in Radar's comments that isn't there, just to try and give your opinion more substance.

Radar is not saying that they are unbeatable, he's saying their brand is strong there in their heartland, which it is. It's up to the NRL to ensure it stays that way, and with the AFL trying to establish its own team there, it will keep them on their toes. But to continually hear the tripe about the NRL being scared - AFLSS. They WILL have to be more proactive, no question about it. It will take the NRL to fcuk things up good and proper as opposed to the AFL being agressive. In previous eras, it would be on the cards. The current NRL is a different beast to what used to be.

[Radar Detector 1,347]

its exactly this sort of thinking that has seen many an empire beaten by an adversary, they thought they were unbeatable. They were the status quo and would always be, History shows they were mugs !!

Or, you could have written in the early 1960s..."I tend to agree with this. How anybody could think that the USA are afraid of Japan's push into car making is beyond me. The USA are the incumbent and their brand there is strong."

Both valid points, although I see a material difference between not "being afraid" of the competition compared with being a complacent incumbent (e.g. USA car manufacturers). It is possible for the NRL to simultaneously not be afraid of the AFL (my contention) and also not be complacent in their current position of relative strength (your contentions). Their fixturing, albeit minor tweaking, suggests they are being somewhat proactive, not necessarily reactionary and scared (certainly not yet).

This overwhelming perception that the AFL always will always win its battles and that it will keep spending until GWS works is also a myth. The advantage of the AFL's "war-chest" is grossly over-stated as the footing isn't close to even and consequently the NRL will not need to spend anywhere near the same amount of cash to maintain its relative position (as their brand is already established the equivalent of the AFL's one-off start-up costs have already been spent). And in any event, big piles of cash don't guarantee success - there are countless examples of corporates that toast billions of dollars on projects that ultimately fail. I'm sure they have a walk-away point.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Where is the NRL money being spent?

In and only their heartland:

http://www.theaustra...f-1226165286325

The AFL are putting their money into expanding the competition in addition to shoring up The Heartland ©.

It's a narrow but deep distinction.

RPFC, doesn't that article point out that 4 NRL clubs, which are all non-western suburb clubs, are asking for an advancement in their pay. It doesn't say anything about the western suburd clubs getting more money put in to them than other clubs/states. Sorry if I've missed something there.

Your last comment about the AFL's spending habits is exactly what the NRL are doing. The NRL are putting money in to areas such as Toowoomba, Central Coast (NSW), the Sunshine Coast, and are hoping to have the Brisbane Bombers kicking off as early as 2013. The NRL has stated previously that they wanted another team playing out of Brisbane, and as they are different to the AFL in terms of new franchise approval, I'm quite sure teh NRL will assist with the funding of this team.

[rpfc 28,271]

RPFC, doesn't that article point out that 4 NRL clubs, which are all non-western suburb clubs, are asking for an advancement in their pay. It doesn't say anything about the western suburd clubs getting more money put in to them than other clubs/states. Sorry if I've missed something there.

Your last comment about the AFL's spending habits is exactly what the NRL are doing. The NRL are putting money in to areas such as Toowoomba, Central Coast (NSW), the Sunshine Coast, and are hoping to have the Brisbane Bombers kicking off as early as 2013. The NRL has stated previously that they wanted another team playing out of Brisbane, and as they are different to the AFL in terms of new franchise approval, I'm quite sure teh NRL will assist with the funding of this team.

Another team in Brisbane?

How will that grow the game?

And the article was the quickest thing I could find pointing out that whether you are a strong Manly or St George, or an 'expansion' club in the Gold Coast, NRL teams are finding it difficult and require the extra TV funds that will come to stay afloat.

Meanwhile the AFL has $200m to dump into actual new markets in GC and GWS that might actually reap a return on investment.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Another team in Brisbane?

How will that grow the game?

And the article was the quickest thing I could find pointing out that whether you are a strong Manly or St George, or an 'expansion' club in the Gold Coast, NRL teams are finding it difficult and require the extra TV funds that will come to stay afloat.

Meanwhile the AFL has $200m to dump into actual new markets in GC and GWS that might actually reap a return on investment.

Another team in Brisbane will help grow the game, just like another AFL team did in Adelaide, and another one in Perth, and to some extent teh AFL's "expansion club" on the Gold Coast, and now another one in Sydney.

The article didn't point out how the battling clubs like Penrith haven't yet gone to the NRL with their hands out.

IF the NRL get the expected $1.4b through the TV rights, it will be a massive boost to the NRL and all levels under it. It won't change the AFL's landscape, just as GWS won't change the NRL's landscape.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,706]

A lot can happen in a generation. If we go back just 25 years to 1986:

• the AFL was called the VFL and had 11 teams in Victoria and one in Sydney
  
• most clubs were broke
  
• no VFL football on Sundays in Victoria
  
• Jack Hamilton was the CEO and John Cain was Premier
  
• when Jack Hamilton wanted something (eg, approval to play football on Sundays) he'd ask for it in the Sun News Pictorial in the morning; John Cain would say "No" in the Herald later that same day
  

So just imagine what changes could occur in the next 25 years. Hopefully for the good of the game. And hopefully I'm still not waiting for a premiership!

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Another team in Brisbane?

How will that grow the game?

And the article was the quickest thing I could find pointing out that whether you are a strong Manly or St George, or an 'expansion' club in the Gold Coast, NRL teams are finding it difficult and require the extra TV funds that will come to stay afloat.

Meanwhile the AFL has $200m to dump into actual new markets in GC and GWS that might actually reap a return on investment.

Or not.

[rpfc 28,271]

Or not.

I did say 'might'...

[Harcourt 146]

The NFL is a unique situation

There is typically one club per state. There are only 16 matches with 8 home games

That means a state like Minnesota (Vikings) gets a total of 8 games a season at the Metrodome (60,000 people) for a state the size of Victoria

The tickets naturally are all sold out before the season starts

I think you have to buy a whole season and they are not cheap

Typically social clubs at corporations buy in bulk then employees bid for their turn

Now baseball is a whole different ballpark (pun intended) with their approx 160 games per season

Went to New York for five days in September; purchased tickets to the Monday night football game Giants v Rams for $150 and Yankees game the next night for $19.

Got to the Giants game an hour late and only missed the first quarter. Much better game on TV, I tape SNF and MNF and watch them fast forwarding between plays. Works well.