Poor Skills up Back!

[Jurrahvegemite 0]

Melbourne will never be any good as long as Bartram and Warnock are holding down positions in our backline. I cringe every time these guys get the ball in their hands!! Defensively they are ok, but their foot skills and decision making is deplorable! They both should take a leaf out of Presti's book and not even try and touch the football. Bartram at least cost us 3 direct goals yesterday due to simple kicking errors (i.e open targets less than 20m away).

If Bartram is suspended this week, then it won't be the worst result. His skills are are not up to AFL standard and never will be. Time to look further forward and groom another youngster into the small defender role.. Dan Nicholson could be a good option. His kicking skills are far superior to Bartram, which isn't saying much, but you can't keep giving games to players with poor skills... let alone playing them up back where it is most important to hit targets and initiate run.

Bartram's poor skills are contagious to the rest of our team. Davey this week is proof! And what the hell is he doing wearing number '3'??

Edited May 22, 2011 by Jurrahvegemite

[Deevout 456]

Here we go again

[Jaded No More 60,147]

It's OK to have Bartram and even Warnock down back, if you have Tapscott, Grimes, Garland and Frawley doing the disposing. Do you see where we failed on Saturday?

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Melbourne will never be any good as long as Bartram and Warnock are holding down positions in our backline. I cringe every time these guys get the ball in their hands!! Defensively they are ok, but their foot skills and decision making is deplorable! They both should take a leaf out of Presti's book and not even try and touch the football. Bartram at least cost us 3 direct goals yesterday due to simple kicking errors (i.e open targets less than 20m away).

If Bartram is suspended this week, then it won't be the worst result. His skills are are not up to AFL standard and never will be. Time to look further forward and groom another youngster into the small defender role.. Dan Nicholson could be a good option. His kicking skills are far superior to Bartram, which isn't saying much, but you can't keep giving games to players with poor skills... let alone playing them up back where it is most important to hit targets and initiate run.

Bartram's poor skills are contagious to the rest of our team. Davey this week is proof! And what the hell is he doing wearing number '3'??

If you read Morton's comment on the Demon website during the week you'll see that Bartram is one of the first players picked each week and he's not gong to get dropped. I think the biggest problem is that there is a lack of commitment and no one wants to take the responsibility of clearing the ball so they each pass it off to each other even if the other player is in a worse position.

[Jurrahvegemite 0]

It's OK to have Bartram and even Warnock down back, if you have Tapscott, Grimes, Garland and Frawley doing the disposing. Do you see where we failed on Saturday?

Both had 22 touches on the weekend. Far to many.

[Tony Tea 2,792]

What happened to poor skills "down" back?

[Jaded No More 60,147]

Both had 22 touches on the weekend. Far to many.

Because..... Grimes, Garland and Tapscott didn't play, and Frawley was busy trying to nullify Reiwoldt (a job I believe would have gone to Garland if he was fit).

You make do with what you have, but let's be honest, Warnock and MacDonald weren't getting a game when everyone was fit, and Bartram played his role defensively without needing to take on the offensive responsibilities.

[Striker475 696]

Do not understand the Bartram hate, I love the guy.

Our first-choice back six seems to be:

Frawley

Rivers

Bartram

Garland

Grimes

Tapscott

With Warnock as the key big-man backup.

Bartram doesn't have great distribution and he didn't have a great game early on Milne, but nevertheless is quite solid and fulfils his role without fuss. He's not going to be a backline superstar, but hey, he'll be fine. There's far worse around.

[Demon Disciple 11,215]

Agree JV. Neither Bartram or Warnock are anything special, they just try and get the job done. Both have poor disposal and both tend to panic with the ball when confronted. I'm still tearing my hair out over Bartram's mark, play on, only to turn the ball over when he kicks the ball across the ground, in our own bloody backline. Dumb football (how about long and down the line?)

We stuff around with the ball way too much. Understood, we attack from the backline, but it is a [censored] gameplan when the players who get the ball out are the likes of Bartram, Frawley and Grimes. None inspire with their disposal by foot. Of course, Aaron Davey is put their for a reason, he just doesn't want to get the ball, he wants it given to him (soft). The other fellas with decent disposal, well one got injured on the weekend, the other is meant to be good by foot, but cannot crack the seniors atm.

Simply put, Bailey has got us playing a style of footy that we simply cannot produce on a regular basis. Whether it be due to injuries or incompetence does not matter. Bailey refuses to see the present problems and only looks at his eutopic idea for the club. His failure to see, or refusal to see leaves him either ignorant or naive. Either way, he just isn't willing to compromise. Now he is using injuries as an excuse to keep Davey in the team (pathetic). Cannot make the tough calls, or doesn't want to.

Give me a coach who has the balls to shake the club up, what's the worst that could happen? We figure out those who don't really have what it takes? If you're gonna do something, do it right, do it properly. Otherwise we will continue to go up and down, round and round in circles.

You want to pat players on the arse and tell 'em to keep trying Bailey? Go coach a high school football team. These fellas are getting paid hundred's of thousands of dollars, expectation to perform should be on them every goddamn day. They are deemed professional as they are being paid to play. Yet many are playing like anything but.

No excuses, just actions. Time to put up, shut up or leave. Rant over

Edited May 22, 2011 by Demon Disciple

[Jurrahvegemite 0]

Do not understand the Bartram hate, I love the guy.

Our first-choice back six seems to be:

Frawley

Rivers

Bartram

Garland

Grimes

Tapscott

With Warnock as the key big-man backup.

Bartram doesn't have great distribution and he didn't have a great game early on Milne, but nevertheless is quite solid and fulfils his role without fuss. He's not going to be a backline superstar, but hey, he'll be fine. There's far worse around.

So you accept playing a guy that can't kick? Good sides don't carry players like Bartram. I do admit he has some positives but negatives outweight them. Need to be able to kick in this game. That has been the clubs direction in the draft, getting players that can kick so I am not sure how Bartram fits in.

[DeeSpencer 23,689]

To the post above, pretty much what are you saying is that if Bailey could make the bad kicks better and the players who don't win the ball better at winning that ball then he'd be a better coach. Well thanks for the revelation.

This season so far.

1. Bailey has put Tapscott and Davey in the backline to address this need

2. Bailey has attempted to play a collection of small forwards to increase forward pressure

3. Bailey has tried to increase the forward pressure

We've twice turned it up half way through games (Hawthorn and North) and once not even rocked up (WCE). But for the rest of the time the problem has been simply not having the cattle. Now good coaches make players better and I don't want to sound like a massive Bailey supporter, but right now there isn't much we can do about it.

Let's have a look at Collingwood's best back 6:

Tarrant - Frawley: Not much in it when Frawley is at his best

Reid - Garland: Both good long kicks who occasionally have a brain fade

Maxwell - Rivers: Probably give that one to us

Toovey - Bartram: They win this one, but both sides would want minimal touches.

O'Brien - Tapscott: Both great long kicks

H. Shaw - Grimes: They win this one, but not by much, a lot of Grimes mistakes come under severe pressure

[dee-luded 2,958]

Melbourne will never be any good as long as Bartram and Warnock are holding down positions in our backline. I cringe every time these guys get the ball in their hands!! Defensively they are ok, but their foot skills and decision making is deplorable! They both should take a leaf out of Presti's book and not even try and touch the football. Bartram at least cost us 3 direct goals yesterday due to simple kicking errors (i.e open targets less than 20m away).

If Bartram is suspended this week, then it won't be the worst result. His skills are are not up to AFL standard and never will be. Time to look further forward and groom another youngster into the small defender role.. Dan Nicholson could be a good option. His kicking skills are far superior to Bartram, which isn't saying much, but you can't keep giving games to players with poor skills... let alone playing them up back where it is most important to hit targets and initiate run.

Bartram's poor skills are contagious to the rest of our team. Davey this week is proof! And what the hell is he doing wearing number '3'??

The reason we lost on Saturday, if we blame players, was Davey, Jurrah, Petterd, not presenting at all well. And Green not taking the game on enough, nor consistently. And a general lack of confidence across the side.

[Striker475 696]

So you accept playing a guy that can't kick? Good sides don't carry players like Bartram. I do admit he has some positives but negatives outweight them. Need to be able to kick in this game. That has been the clubs direction in the draft, getting players that can kick so I am not sure how Bartram fits in.

I would rather accept a player that genuinely knows his shortcomings and will prefer to take a different option (as Bartram knows well) than a player who has some skills in an area and attempts to use them but it doesn't come off cos he really isn't that good.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Master, you must be kidding - Frawley eats Tarrant alive.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

I've always been a huge critic of Bartram and his decision-making (this is his biggest problem, not his actual skill level).

Defensively he is superb as a small forward or tagger.

With the ball in hand he can be a liability, but he has steadily improved in this area.

When Garland, Grimes, Frawley and Tapscott are in the backline with him, I'm a lot more comfortable.

As they spend more time working as a unit back there, they have become better at covering for him in this regard, and recognising how to avoid getting into the position where he has the ball and hand and has to find an obscure option.

This is clearly not his forte.

A few of the issues I noticed on Saturday came about due to poor positioning and spacing, when trying to draw and give coming out of defence.

Frawley got caught a couple of times, but it wasn't his fault.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

Melbourne will never be any good as long as Bartram and Warnock are holding down positions in our backline. I cringe every time these guys get the ball in their hands!! Defensively they are ok, but their foot skills and decision making is deplorable! They both should take a leaf out of Presti's book and not even try and touch the football. Bartram at least cost us 3 direct goals yesterday due to simple kicking errors (i.e open targets less than 20m away).

If Bartram is suspended this week, then it won't be the worst result. His skills are are not up to AFL standard and never will be. Time to look further forward and groom another youngster into the small defender role.. Dan Nicholson could be a good option. His kicking skills are far superior to Bartram, which isn't saying much, but you can't keep giving games to players with poor skills... let alone playing them up back where it is most important to hit targets and initiate run.

Bartram's poor skills are contagious to the rest of our team. Davey this week is proof! And what the hell is he doing wearing number '3'??

Can you tell me Bartrams efficiency? i can tell you the past three years 70,73,69%, Davey's is 70,72,66 all by foot, stats from the afl Prospectus by champion data

He is by far not the worst on the team, and will be in the team for a long time so get used it it everyone

[biggestred 4,436]

pretty easy to critize them but when they look up the ground and see 1 player surrounded by 3 saints, of course they are going to try and keep the ball by kicking it sideways. when no one up the ground moves into and out of space - thats the true disgrace. bloody lead, lead hard, keep leading and let someone come into the space behind you - not to mention that lots of movement creates disorder in the team defending. [censored] simple [censored] but takes hard hard unrewarding running - and we simply seem to have a cbf attitude about doing that at the moment. the end.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Not always.

Sometimes it's simply being too slow to move the ball to certain spots on the field, letting yourself get caught with the footy deep in the back pocket and a press ahead of you.

If you are too deep, the boundary line hems you in, giving you not enough room to go backwards for a switch, making it easy for the opposition to press and congest both further afield along the boundary, in the middle and on the weak side.

The only way to get through is have a thumping 70m kick over the top of the press on the weak side, or to take the game on, breaking through the press until you are far enough in to kick over the rest of it.

The pressure there is intense, so you need to be composed and well-spaced.

Chris Scott at Geelong has had the cats running with 3 or 4 in a close line to combat this.

They are composed enough to hold their line and still draw & give, but in a smaller area.

Numbers in a small space are key here, but so is the spacing between players.

Close enough to get an easy handball, but far enough apart to force the close defender to commit.

You also have to be close enough that other players in the press either hold their position & aren't close enough to get you, or get drawn and the press breaks down.

[DemonDave 1,078]

I'm a big Bartram believer, but his two or three glaring errors yesterday unfortunately all lead to goals.

However as has been alluded to, not having the cattle there to do the normal job of making the clearing kick out of the backline forces his hand by necessity. He had a bad day, but you dont drop him for a rookie. You know that every week you're going to get a good honest performance out of the Bartman. Which is more than can be said for the so called leaders in Davey et al.

Bartram and Jones, for all their critics on here, must be two of the first picked every week, as over their entire Melbourne careers theyve both barely missed a game. The match committee/football department obviously see their true worth to the team.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,003]

Our backline does contain the worst kicks in the team. There's no getting around that fact. We have Rivers, Frawley and Tapscott who are all very good ball users generally, but Bartram, Warnock, Garland and Grimes all have question marks over them.

I am however hopeful in this case. While they will never be a match for Tapscott in the kicking department, Bartram has shown drastic improvement in this area since last year, clearly the product of much hard work. If he can do this, the others can as well. They all have the potential to be decent kicks who will at least play to their strengths and not give away cheap shots at goal. Failing this, it is clear that the club has some more players coming through who can fill the gap. Tom MacDonald has been playing CHB for Casey with some success, and this is clearly a role they plan on having him continue. Strauss is a brilliant kick and may develop the rest of his game to AFL level given time. Troy Davis will be similar to Garland and Nicholson is another who could play the running back pocked/HBF. Given where we are likely to be challenging for a premiership, all of these players are likely to be in the side or gone from the list. It hurts right now, but by the time it really matters, we will have the kicking we need back there.

[Arrow 1,257]

Let's have a look at Collingwood's best back 6:

Tarrant - Frawley: Not much in it when Frawley is at his best

Reid - Garland: Both good long kicks who occasionally have a brain fade

Maxwell - Rivers: Probably give that one to us

Toovey - Bartram: They win this one, but both sides would want minimal touches.

O'Brien - Tapscott: Both great long kicks

H. Shaw - Grimes: They win this one, but not by much, a lot of Grimes mistakes come under severe pressure

Funny I disagree on almost all of these,

Frawley is light years ahead of Tarrant. Tarrant is a donkey and next to no presence in attack.

Garland is a better player than Reid, Reid is generally poor in one on one situations choosing too regularly to mark instead of punching (see: Jared Rivers). However, Brown would come in for Reid and he flogged Riewoldt consecutively on the biggest stage therefore far exceeds Garlands resume.

Maxwell is an All Australian. Be it as a loose man he reads it better than Jared and does not have lapses or skill errors like his counterpart. P.s Maxwell punches.

Toovey has become more consistent than Bartram but you are right both should never be premiership players

O'Brien is light years ahead of Tappy. Tappy has no defensive presence what so ever and is being played substantially out of position.

Shaw and Grimes i'll call a draw only because I think Grimes potential is so high. I think there I am being generous.

We are so so far behind it's scary. 2 years and I'm hoping Strauss' will turn into Shaws and Tapscotts will turn into Maxwells (+ more). But, still long way to go.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Our backline does contain the worst kicks in the team. There's no getting around that fact. We have Rivers, Frawley and Tapscott who are all very good ball users generally, but Bartram, Warnock, Garland and Grimes all have question marks over them.

I am however hopeful in this case. While they will never be a match for Tapscott in the kicking department, Bartram has shown drastic improvement in this area since last year, clearly the product of much hard work. If he can do this, the others can as well. They all have the potential to be decent kicks who will at least play to their strengths and not give away cheap shots at goal. Failing this, it is clear that the club has some more players coming through who can fill the gap. Tom MacDonald has been playing CHB for Casey with some success, and this is clearly a role they plan on having him continue. Strauss is a brilliant kick and may develop the rest of his game to AFL level given time. Troy Davis will be similar to Garland and Nicholson is another who could play the running back pocked/HBF. Given where we are likely to be challenging for a premiership, all of these players are likely to be in the side or gone from the list. It hurts right now, but by the time it really matters, we will have the kicking we need back there.

Garland does not have any question marks over him.

He is a very good kick coming out of the backline, and I've heard members of the coaching staff say the same.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,003]

Garland does not have any question marks over him.

He is a very good kick coming out of the backline, and I've heard members of the coaching staff say the same.

I rate Garland as about level with Grimes. It's not that he's a terrible kick but that terrible things can come of his kicks. Both he and Grimes have turned over a lot of balls this year by kicking to places where we are outnumbered. I prefer them to Bartram or Warnock as they at least seem to have the sense to kick it out of scoring distance when they turn it over, but it's still not great.

[Dockett 32 1,213]

Our problem wasn't with the backline.

[hoopla 418]

Can you tell me Bartrams efficiency? i can tell you the past three years 70,73,69%, Davey's is 70,72,66 all by foot, stats from the afl Prospectus by champion data

He is by far not the worst on the team, and will be in the team for a long time so get used it it everyone

These stats reflect the fact that the statisticians treat 25 -30 metre chip kicks to a teammate as effective.Credit to Barts for having the self discipline to play within his limitations. He has excellent defensive skills ....and must have been a walk-up start at selection for a while now.

But on Saturday, he handed St Kilda 3 goals at key points in the game because of poor decisions and poor execution. If he gets isolated with the ball deep in defence , he is very vulnerable. He may be a good depth player for a few years yet - but I don't think I'd want to take him into a final.

Edited May 23, 2011 by hoopla