Why are we so suprised?

[Rogue 585]

If Darling was rated as a top 3 prospect all along and we are crying out for big bodied players why the hell didn't we pick him at 12.

I understand where you're coming from, but he went 26 - he clearly wasn't rated as a 'top-3 prospect' by any of the Clubs (or if he was, they discarded that idea well before draft day).

[Axis of Bob 11,789]

He was rated as top 3 because he was already the size he is now at the age of 15.

The only rating that anyone has of him is where he was rated by recruiters on draft day.

[Roost It 1,434]

I understand where you're coming from, but he went 26 - he clearly wasn't rated as a 'top-3 prospect' by any of the Clubs (or if he was, they discarded that idea well before draft day).

I'm pretty sure that he dropped off the radar due to supposed off field indiscretions. Our list of nice boys could do with a bit of Jack Darling at the moment.

[agent_orange 0]

I think that people have overrated how good we are, and perhaps the players themselves have read some of the hype. Our mature players aren't that good, and our kids aren't big enough yet. The club spent the preseason clearly trying to put a dampener on expectations, but I'm not sure that message was heard by all.

And, before anyone tells me, I know how bad we were last night.

Not hype, it is nothingness. We are niether better than last year and perhaps worse. People can go on all day about how young we are but in reality, we have many of the same players who have now been on the list for some years still playing the same way.

I think we may have overrated our coach. You will never win if you can't get the basic structure right.

I don't think anyone here thought we would be major players come september but most expected to see some improvement - maybe some greater tatical nous from Bailey.

All we are seeing is a wasted year. All the players seem either lost or missing any desire.

[agent_orange 0]

The press won Collingwood a Premiership. So to win a Premiership you need to beat it. We can't even kick out from fullback after a point. Last night's tactic was to kick it toward the boundary in the vague direction of Watts and co. Bizarre. When the kicker plays on no one shepherds. Strange. They cleared it with ease and not only beat us in contested possession but pantsed us with uncontested possession as well. Meaning they worked alot harder than we did to firstly man up and then to create space. Our lack of organised gameplan is starting to look silly. Expecting our players to handball out of congestion at half aback and then kick it over the flood is laughable, problem being, we don't find it funny. Something's going to give.

Some other observations:

If Darling was rated as a top 3 prospect all along and we are crying out for big bodied players why the hell didn't we pick him at 12.

I though Watts had his best game for the season

Have we recruited too many small bodied players. Terry Wallace anyone.

Frawley is horribly out of form

Green is seriously struggling with the captaincy

Wonaeamirri, Jurrah, Bennell, Morton all disappear when the heat is on. Finals anyone.

Martin's development continues..

Martin made way too many errors last night but Dunn was the worst.

[jacey 333]

But it's also obvious that we were physically monstered across the field by a bigger and more mature side.

Agree with most points.

As mentioned their midfield are pretty experienced.

Priddis, Kerr, Embley, Adam Selwood, Matt Rosa, Sam Butler and Ebert is a man child. Sheuy and Gaff are good young 'uns.

[Hannabal 4]

Why do you think that is? I'd put it down to a lack of willingness to run which doesn't fit with my understanding that we have elite endurance runners in our team - Morton, Grimes, Trengove and Bail.

The mindset is worrying.

It can't be all mindset. It's also because we don't structure up properly. It was first evident in the Essendon NAB Cup match. We were completely disorganised at the kick ins and had no idea where to run or how to defend when we didn't have the ball. Nothing has changed and I firmly and squarely blame Bailey. Let's cut to the chase. He has a pox gameplan and has been completely caught off-guard over summer. Alistair Clarkson realized after round 6 last year that the game had changed and they'd been caught unawares. They changed their gameplan from that moment on. I knew that we'd been caught unaware a month ago and haven't seen one change in our gameplan. I've been patient, but it's fair to say that in his FOURTH year I don't think I'm going early when I say he's sh#t.

Now Snoopster, read this article by Gerard Healy dated 25 February.

It's titled "Pressing issues for Bailey". Hmm, nice play on words there.

Here tis:

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/melbourne-demons-must-overhaul-their-defensive-structure-ahead-of-2011-afl-premiership-season/story-e6frf3e3-1226012075391

Low and behold two months later and NOTHING has changed.

The guy is a joke.

[Guest Rojik of the Arctic]

Surprised? I can't say I am really. What do you think is going to happen when you get a team to lose on purpose and fans cheers when they do.

It's not a switch you can turn off and on.

[Disco Demons 92]

Has anyone actually sat down and looked at the stats of the playing list?

Yes we have no heart, no passion, no intensity, no game plan and an average coach, however there are some glaring facts which can't be discounted:

Last night 2 teams lined up:

Average Attributes

West Coast Attribute Melbourne

188.8cm Height 186.8cm

89.7kg Weight 85.9kg

24yr 4mth Age 23yr 6mth

84.0 Games 62.2

Total Players By Games

WC Games Melbourne

8 - Less than 50 - 11

8 - 50 to 99 - 6

1 - 100 to 149 - 4

5 - 150 or more - 1

Last night Melbourne were shorter, younger and had played on average 20 less games. To highlight the issue they had 4 more players with hardened 150+ game bodies.

The above facts can not be overlooked.

Our player list is at the same level as Richmond.

Richmond

Height 187.1cm

Weight 86.0kg

Age 23yr 6mth

Games 61.7

Total Players By Games

Games

Less than 50 - 11

50 to 99 - 7

100 to 149 - 3

150 or more - 1

In fact the MFC are a mirror image of Richmond. And to make it worse we are a little bit shorter and thinner :-)

We have the second youngest side in the league, second least experienced side, one of the shortest and the thinnest.

No wonder we were man handled last night.

Even though we are statistically on par with Richmond they seem to show more up side then us.

I got another stat for you....4 years....that's the number of years bailey has been at the demons.

you compare us to richmond. 2 years...hardwick has been there.

You have truth but not nesccarily an argument in your summary of "shorter, younger and had played on average 20 less games. To highlight the issue they had 4 more players with hardened 150+ game bodies. Since we knew this going into the game.

At the start of this round we had three players on the injury list scully, mckenzie and campbell. So we had a near full list of fit players to choose from.

Gold Coast beat Port Adel...how did they do it?

We are lacking leadership and coaching at the moment. I can't see it any other way.

[Roost It 1,434]

The guy is a joke.

No need for the rest, this sums it up very well.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Good post. But don't expect many to discuss here, because they are venting their spleen in other threads.

I think most are concerned with the teams inability to perform under pressure, and the fact they looked terrible last night. It was the Hawks third quarter re-visited and something needs to be done. The concern is that the current coaching regime is stifling their development. They appear to have no answers to the forward press being adopted by most clubs that are competent. Failure to address it is incompetent, despite the age of our team.

We lack leadership on the ground as well as off it.

It hurts serving that up anytime, especially on the big stage like last night.

I reckon a Brendan McCartney would have more of an idea in his left [censored]. So I think our club would be derelict in their duty not to look at it. Due diligence. Maybe they already are ? I'd be interested to know the findings from the review....

Hit the nail on the head again HT. We have looked spirit-less and confused, even in our wins.

[Geddy Lee 582]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/afl-premiership/melbourne-demons-must-overhaul-their-defensive-structure-ahead-of-2011-afl-premiership-season/story-e6frf3e3-1226012075391

Low and behold two months later and NOTHING has changed.

The guy is a joke.

"It's disappointing to see the same set up this year."

That's an extremely polite way of phrasing it.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

The problem is I'm not surprised , I've seen all this before .

A surprise would be to come out after a long summer and show that we have improved significantly .

Other clubs seem to be able to do it , ours finds it impossible .

We've been fed a steady dose of snake-oil by Schwab , Connolly , Stynes & media about the accumilated talent on our list.

That our facilities are second to none , that soon we'll be a power . We grimly hold onto flashes of competancy (like Watts game last night)that it will all come together in the end . Meanwhile we watch patiently as opposition teams and draftees feats surpass our own .

[Roost It 1,434]

How good's the flag raising going to be at our next home game

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

How good's the flag raising going to be at our next home game

Just put it in the cupboard please.

[H_T 3,043]

Thanks for that, an interesting read.

As you know I'm slower than you in formulating opinions and I'm trying to measure my dismay at our performance with the analysis presented at the beginning of this thread but the issues that Healy highlights have been issues for us for a long time with seemingly little or no progress.

What makes me hesitate is that our midfield is just so third world and that is where the game starts and is won. But I hear what you say.

I concur on the hesitation point you make re: the midfield. But Healy's on the money re: the pressing issue.

I'll add that if we're not winning enough contested ball and landing tackles, the rest of our non-game is magnified.

I agree that it's not all mindset, but mindset plays a massive part on what I've mentioned, not to mention confidence.

[Roost It 1,434]

Just put it in the cupboard please.

Can you imagine how embarrassing it's going to be when we play Collingwood and we unfurl it. I'm arriving late to that game......and probably leaving early.

[Theo 272]

I have never been more depressed, this football team is going nowhere. We can attribute it to the coach or we can attribute it to our recruiting. Or both. We continually recruit light bodied small and medium sized players. Our tall players are light bodied i.e Cook, Rivers, Watts, Morton, Fitzpatrick etc. We don't recruit matured bodied hardnuts that are ball accumulaters and thrive in a contest. Apoligies to Tapscott.

The players seem afraid to take responsibility and take the game on. They are waiting for someone else to do it for them. We are a team of passengers and down hill skiers. The occassional comeo keeps players like Bennell and Morton in the team.

Paul Roos said that Aaron Davey doesen't appear to be enjoying his footy anymore because of being tagged. We have no A graders, only weak minded, weak bodied players that don't play for eachother. It appears to be a disheveled, disinterested lot that get monstered by the opposition week after week. Where are our monsters? We are the big key position players.

Our recruiting seems to generally take the safe option with skilled light framed nice boys. I just don't get it.

The FD keeps saying we need a matured bodied stay at home forward. Why didn't we pick McKernan or Darling or even Jackson Trengove instead of a HB flanker in Strauss.

In 2008 we picked Strauss, Bennell and Jetts. In between these picks the likes of Shuey, Ballantyne, Rockliff, Trengove, Zaharakis, Suban, Redden, Beams, Hannebery, Roughhead, Sloane, Liam Anthony were taken. All of these players have a combination of skill and hardness that the 3 Melbourne players don't have. We are no better now than we were 10 years ago. We were a bottom to middle of the ladder team then and were are no better now. You can blame the current coach, but this has been going on for years and even decades. I'm sick of it.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Theo

[daisycutter 29,613]

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

[Fork 'em 6,983]

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

e25 ..... You there ?

[Ryan Dee 140]

I have never been more depressed, this football team is going nowhere. We can attribute it to the coach or we can attribute it to our recruiting. Or both. We continually recruit light bodied small and medium sized players. Our tall players are light bodied i.e Cook, Rivers, Watts, Morton, Fitzpatrick etc. We don't recruit matured bodied hardnuts that are ball accumulaters and thrive in a contest. Apoligies to Tapscott.

The players seem afraid to take responsibility and take the game on. They are waiting for someone else to do it for them. We are a team of passengers and down hill skiers. The occassional comeo keeps players like Bennell and Morton in the team.

Paul Roos said that Aaron Davey doesen't appear to be enjoying his footy anymore because of being tagged. We have no A graders, only weak minded, weak bodied players that don't play for eachother. It appears to be a disheveled, disinterested lot that get monstered by the opposition week after week. Where are our monsters? We are the big key position players.

Our recruiting seems to generally take the safe option with skilled light framed nice boys. I just don't get it.

The FD keeps saying we need a matured bodied stay at home forward. Why didn't we pick McKernan or Darling or even Jackson Trengove instead of a HB flanker in Strauss.

In 2008 we picked Strauss, Bennell and Jetts. In between these picks the likes of Shuey, Ballantyne, Rockliff, Trengove, Zaharakis, Suban, Redden, Beams, Hannebery, Roughhead, Sloane, Liam Anthony were taken. All of these players have a combination of skill and hardness that the 3 Melbourne players don't have. We are no better now than we were 10 years ago. We were a bottom to middle of the ladder team then and were are no better now. You can blame the current coach, but this has been going on for years and even decades. I'm sick of it.

Wow, bingo.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

"Our recruiting seems to generally take the safe option with skilled light framed nice boys. I just don't get it."

I don't either Theo.

Where is our Cooney, Griffin, Judd, Selwood ?

[Fork 'em 6,983]

"Our recruiting seems to generally take the safe option with skilled light framed nice boys. I just don't get it."

I don't either Theo.

Where is our Cooney, Griffin, Judd, Selwood ?

You can keep Cooney & Griffin , pass us Hodge , Swan , Bartell or Chapman .

Edited April 29, 2011 by Fork 'em

[Axis of Bob 11,789]

Theo:

Actually, it's easy to pick the mature bodied hard nuts because you can already see what they are/will become. The risk is taking a more lightly framed player because they still require physical development, which takes time. Time that supporters don't particularly like giving.

How did Tom Lonergan go against Buddy on Tuesday? Want to know how skinny he was when he was drafted? We actually took the big bodied Daniel Bell and Nick Smith before him. What about the big bodied Nathan Jones, Colin Sylvia, Brock McLean, Luke Molan, Lynden Dunn, Matthew Bate.

Actually, the only lighter bodied tall player we drafted in the first round between 2001 and 2007 was James Frawley. In amongst a flood of players, Sylvia aside, ranging from duds to 'good ordinary players', it seems that we only really had success with the smaller bodied types that needed further development. And how long were people slagging off the light bodied Frawley and Garland? I don't know if you were around at the time, but there was a lot of crap sent their way for a long time until they finally developed.

Since then, our smaller bodied first round picks were: Morton, Grimes, Watts, Scully, Gysberts and Cook. Trengove was a bigger bodied player.

But the lighter player will get bigger and stronger. And, at some point, you'll forget that they used to be skinny kids.

Like Tom Lonergan.

[Trisul 664]

where have all the "have_trust_in_the_FD,_they_know_what_they_are_doing" apologists gone?

When you're younger, smaller, lighter, less experienced:

-playing a full court press is very dangerous.

-coping with a full court press is very difficult.

-man on man starts with assuming a lost contest.

-isolations are few and far between and are locked down sooner rather than later.

The learned ability to play calmly yet decisively through presses will be golden in years to come.

Having tried and failed is no reason to stop, indeed it would be at the cost of player/team development.

I suppose I could work myself into a fit because we lost a game we were expected to lose.

Or because our senior players were well held / run off.

We ARE essentially GC+1 atm. Development year? 2013+? I'll save my fit for those that derail that plan.