Excuse my ignorance, but can someone who knows more than I do about these things, please explain the full implications of Ball's contract expiration on the 31st?

Once his current contract expires later this week, what hold to St Kilda have over him? What priority, if any, do they have over other clubs in re-signing him?

No hold but they can agree to a new contract without needing to draft him.

..

Rivers statistically had the best disposal efficiency in the club by a long way in 2009. If you think it's bad at 86.4% then either you are a perfectionist or we are in big trouble. - You should try watching games more often rather focussing on stats pages. At times his ball usage is extremely poor. I am not sure the veracity of your stats but they must be generous in the size of target he kicks too.

Junior in a back pocket!!!!! Anyway, the little champ will be 34 and Cheney 20 next year - try again! - With the added influx of 2 or 3 quality players in the midfield Junior will struggle to do more than cameos in the midfield. If you did watch the games late last year, Junior did start to do more roles up back. And age has nothing to do with it.

• Rivers is our best 3rd tall. Only 2 of Warnock, Frawley and Garland will play in the same defence/team with Warnock my choice to miss out. -

What does 3rd best tall mean exactly? It means he is not good enough to be our best tall or second best tall. Why? He not strong enough to play on bigger talls and he is not quick enough particularly over shorter distances to pick up quicker forwards. And Warnock would be our first picked back to play on a KPF. Top 5 in the past 2 B&F gives recognition to his value in the team. Frawley and Garland can play short and tall forwards well. Rivers cant. And you want another player albeit shorter in that mould. Brilliant.

• Cheney is better than Bennell.

Early days. Bennell is quicker and a best user of the ball at this stage.

• One of Grimes or Bruce (30 yo) will play midfield.

So one willl take a backline spot then. Exactly my point. Where does Cheney fit exactly?

I find Cheney gets caught ball watching a lot and loses his man. He will need to fix this aspect of his game if he is to make it. Has some other good qualities but at this stage of his career it is a glaring weakness and due to the position he plays on the ground it often proves costly.

Agree RR

Agree RR

agree also

crystal how can you say Rivers deserves a game ahead of Warnock, things have changed since their first couple of years at the club you know

and as if Macca is not going to get a game he is captain and one of our few senior players FCS

Here here RR

At Cheney's size with his lack of pace what sort of forward is he suited to?

What role does Cheney play, which opponent will he take?

It's a little hard to fathom the criticism Cheney has been receiving. I personally am not his biggest fan, but he played 12 games this year as a TEENAGER!

How many times to people on this forum have to write youngsters off as one-dimentional, or 'not- classy' or 'not good enough' wayyyyy too early. People were saying the same about Garland being useless in his first couple of seasons.

Back to Cheney- he has potential. He is a tough nut, fearless w/ compact skills. But most importantly, if he's good enough there is DEFINITELY a spot in the team for him.

We are missing a small defensive minded defender in our defence to take the small forwards. Bennel is more an attacking HB, while McDonald is 34y/o, Grimes is poised to move into the midfield.

The only players atm we have to take the oppositions best small forwards are Cheney and Daniel Bell (and god knows Bell won't be on the list next season).

If we don't rate Cheney, then we should be looking at a guy like Sheppard at pick 18 this year.

Either way, MFC should give him the best opportunity to succeed. At this point he hasn't set the world on fire but has shown promise. Don't write him off too early.

Why do people keep bringing up the ages of players?

Junior and Bruce are on the list next year and they will be in the best 22.

Do you want them to get in the way of Scully or Trengove in the middle?

Oh, you dont?!

Then pick somewhere for them to play... A BP and HBF? Ok, then they are going to get in the way of Cheney and McNamara.

They will be good value in those periphery roles and we can still develop our midfield.

Firstly, apologies if this has been covered on another thread, but I have been off line for some time.

Recent media reports indicate that the MFC has become increasingly keen on Luke Ball, with the hope that we can secure him in the PSD, therefore preserving our pick 18 in the National Draft. Mark Stevens, in the Hun, goes as far as saying that if we get him, he will leap frog Flash and Green and take over the captaincy from Junior in 2011.

Ball is a quality individual and was and is greatly respected at St. Kilda. So why his apparent fall from grace at the Saints? He long has history of OP and other soft tissue injuries, his kicking leaves a lot to be desired, his pace has dropped of and he no longer seems to have the ability to break the lines.

However, I agree there is a huge upside if we get him. As I said, he is a quality individual, who has commanded great respect. With our new crop of top flight , but very young mid fielders coming through, he could be just the mentor they need.

The question remains, though, are we better to look for another KPP or get another top quality kid, like Jack Grimes brother, who comes with equally big raps as Jack, or do we roll the dice and get what may become our first really big marquee name for some time?

I remain uncertain, but would be interested in others’ comments.

Cheers

Thankyou Iv'a worn smith!!! Can we get back to topic now?

I think Ball is basically obliged to meet with us to weigh up his options, I doubt though that there will be a decision announced until probably the nomination deadline, Nov 11...?

Jack Grimes brother, who comes with equally big raps as Jack

Huh ? I think you've got your wires crossed there.

Apologies for any confusion.

My post was moved from the "General" section of the Forum. Not my doing.

As I'm sure you will note, I began my post by saying "Firstly, apologies if this has been covered on another thread, but I have been off line for some time."

Clearly the topic had been covered elsewhere, hence the moderator moved my post. However, the reaction above shows how the intended context of my post was lost by plonking it in here

Why do people keep bringing up the ages of players?

Junior and Bruce are on the list next year and they will be in the best 22.

Precisely.

Clearly the topic had been covered elsewhere, hence the moderator moved my post. However, the reaction above shows how the intended context of my post was lost by plonking it in here

Dylan Grimes does not have, and has not been reported as having, the same raps as Jack. Where your post is makes no difference to that.

Back on Ball if he does not sign with the saints before list lodgement on 31st oct is he officially in the open market or do Saints still have dibs on him until the draft??

just read pinned post about dates looks like 10th nov 2pm is D day for Ball

Edited October 29, 200915 yr by Bates Mate

Back on Ball if he does not sign with the saints before list lodgement on 31st oct is he officially in the open market or do Saints still have dibs on him until the draft??

just read pinned post about dates looks like 10th nov 2pm is D day for Ball

Yeah, it should be sorted out by the end of next week I would say.

Still think it will be a Press Conference with Ross Lyon or Dean Bailey.

Rivers statistically had the best disposal efficiency in the club by a long way in 2009. If you think it's bad at 86.4% then either you are a perfectionist or we are in big trouble. - You should try watching games more often rather focussing on stats pages. At times his ball usage is extremely poor. I am not sure the veracity of your stats but they must be generous in the size of target he kicks too.

Junior in a back pocket!!!!! Anyway, the little champ will be 34 and Cheney 20 next year - try again! - With the added influx of 2 or 3 quality players in the midfield Junior will struggle to do more than cameos in the midfield. If you did watch the games late last year, Junior did start to do more roles up back. And age has nothing to do with it.

• Rivers is our best 3rd tall. Only 2 of Warnock, Frawley and Garland will play in the same defence/team with Warnock my choice to miss out. -

What does 3rd best tall mean exactly? It means he is not good enough to be our best tall or second best tall. Why? He not strong enough to play on bigger talls and he is not quick enough particularly over shorter distances to pick up quicker forwards. And Warnock would be our first picked back to play on a KPF. Top 5 in the past 2 B&F gives recognition to his value in the team. Frawley and Garland can play short and tall forwards well. Rivers cant. And you want another player albeit shorter in that mould. Brilliant.

• Cheney is better than Bennell.

Early days. Bennell is quicker and a best user of the ball at this stage.

• One of Grimes or Bruce (30 yo) will play midfield.

So one willl take a backline spot then. Exactly my point. Where does Cheney fit exactly?

Rhino - Most people add extra comments to their argument to strengthen it. Congratulations on breaking that mould.

1. I am a Platinum MFC member (31 consecutive years) and played over 200 games (VFA, VAFA, EDFL) so I know the game and Melbourne pretty well. Your CV? The stats are readily accessible to those who reading material is broader than this forum - Eight and a half thousand posts in 4 years - Christ Rhino, get a life! Do you have OCD or what!

2. Sorry, but age is relevant. You are advocating delisting a kid that just turned 20 and who has shown real promise. Junior had some shockers last year and was only saved by his strong finish to the season in games we were coached to lose. He will get little game time period in 2010 - his time is up.

3. Your 3rd tall definition is pathetic. Rivers does this role beautifully by using his superior reading of the game and making a 2 on 1 contest in the backline better than anyone on our list. He has finally got fit again after years of injury problems and reminded us how good he is. Hopefully he will get to have a pre season and an injury free year again. I like Warnock and happy he is a Demon but Frawley and Garland at least as good and have more upside. Cheney gets more of the ball than Bennell, his disposal efficiency is better, is 5cm taller and 19 kg heavier and so better meets your essential criteria of every player needing the ability to play on anyone from 170 - 210 cm!

4. I've eliminated from the backline Junior, Warnock, and one of Bruce or Grimes. That leaves, Rivers, Frawley, Bennell, Garland, either Bruce or Grimes and Cheney makes 6. Do your math Rhino - there are books that can help. By the way, just to totally p*% you off, I think Blease will likely replace Bennell in the backline anyway.

I apologise to readers of this topic expecting to read about Ball. I won't post out of topic theme again. I'll keep my future arguments with RR relative to the topic title.

Crystal:

Don't start with a personal remark and then give your argument, as it just puts people off before they even read what you write. Save all of that until the end.

2 - Age is relevant, but it is not particularly relevant to the discussions about whether Cheney will or won't make it. Junior is not competing against Junior for a spot on the list. Maybe a spot in the team next year, but not on the list. Junior is there for other reasons than just on field.

3 - The role of a third tall defender has changed a lot in the past few years, and even more since the VFA existed. Rivers reads the play well, which is his strength as well as his bravery in the air, but teams just don't carry thrid tall defenders like himn anymore. The problem with Rivers is that he needs to find an opponent that is both slow and weak (although he's better at playing on stronger players now). The other problem with Rivers is that he offers us very little in the way of run from defence and carrying the footy. Look at St Kilda, who had a primary tall stopper (Dawson), Fisher (who attacked and defended) and Gilbert played as the third tall defender. Gilbert is a runner and was so dangerous because he was able to carry the ball over lines. Rivers was a fantastic player for the way the game was played 5 years ago, where it was about kicking the ball long to contests. The ball is run far more often now and the benefit of his 'zoning' is starting to fall behind the disbenefit of his static attacking game. Garland actually plays the role of a third tall far better because he can genuinely play of a range of players (which Rivers can't), has pace (which Rivers doesn't) and provides excellent attacking run from defence (which Rivers doesn't).

As for Cheney, Bennell has more tools to make it at AFL level than Cheney. Cheney will be a very good VFL footballer and an exceptional country footballer because he is hard, strong over head very good in contests. Unfortunately AFL football is significantly different because it exposes a lack of pace, especially playing close to goal in defence. His best jobs so far have been against players taller than him against whom he has 'heroically fought while undersized', but unfortunately his spot is as a small defender and the small forwards just cut him up due to his lack of pace. Bennell has the pace and agility to play on small forwards that Cheney just can't.

4 - Eliminating Warnock from the backline? He is our best tall stopper and had an exceptional year. He was top 5 in our B&F!! I see you eliminating him from our ideal backline and I worry about you. Warnock and Frawley are the only two who I would suggest are guaranteed positions in our defence, such is their importance. From there you can run any number of players through: Garland, Rivers, Bennell, Junior, Cheney, Strauss (who is the player Cheney will really be competing against for a spot), McNamara, Green, Grimes, Bruce........

For someone who claims to have played a lot of footy (albeit in a vastly different era), you certainly don't seem to rate the defensive aspect of the game at all. You talk about Rivers not playing on a man, rating Cheney over Bennell because he gets more possessions and wanting to omit our best defensive shut down player. I'm surprised you didn't play WAFL given the lack of accountability you seem to tolerate.

Apologies for any confusion.

Clearly the topic had been covered elsewhere, hence the moderator moved my post. However, the reaction above shows how the intended context of my post was lost by plonking it in here

Merging posts/threads often creates problems like that, and I for one can find it pretty disconcerting. An edit from the mod would at least clarify things.

1. I am a Platinum MFC member (31 consecutive years) and played over 200 games (VFA, VAFA, EDFL) so I know the game and Melbourne pretty well. Your CV? The stats are readily accessible to those who reading material is broader than this forum - Eight and a half thousand posts in 4 years - Christ Rhino, get a life!

Taking the bait and posting up your life story is probably worse than RR's original snide comment. Stabbing him for posting on the forum is just petty.

Do you have OCD or what!

What does OCD have to do with posting on a forum lots?

3. Your 3rd tall definition is pathetic. Rivers does this role beautifully by using his superior reading of the game and making a 2 on 1 contest in the backline better than anyone on our list. He has finally got fit again after years of injury problems and reminded us how good he is. Hopefully he will get to have a pre season and an injury free year again. I like Warnock and happy he is a Demon but Frawley and Garland at least as good and have more upside.

There's room for all three in the side. As you're a keen Demon fan with life membership who has been to every game since 1903 and only goes to the toilet during the breaks you would have seen that Garland can play tall and small - he's beaten talls like Franklin and smalls like Farmer in the same season.

Warnock would be first picked because he's the number one man for the big jobs, and is stronger than Garland (if not Frawley too). Rivers is vulnerable beacuse he doesn't hurt teams the other way and is exploitable - he can't play on key players and he can't play on the smaller quick types either. It'll be interesting to see what he's like with a pre-season under his belt.

Cheney gets more of the ball than Bennell, his disposal efficiency is better, is 5cm taller and 19 kg heavier and so better meets your essential criteria of every player needing the ability to play on anyone from 170 - 210 cm!

I don't think Cheney has the class to play as an attacking defender and if he isn't quicker than what he showed this year I don't see that he's a [long-term] solution for the quick smalls that most teams have. However, someone posted that he's had an ankle injury that impacted on his pace, so perhaps he can play that role in future.

4. I've eliminated from the backline Junior, Warnock, and one of Bruce or Grimes. That leaves, Rivers, Frawley, Bennell, Garland, either Bruce or Grimes and Cheney makes 6. Do your math Rhino - there are books that can help. By the way, just to totally p*% you off, I think Blease will likely replace Bennell in the backline anyway.

I doubt Blease will play in the backline too often. I imagine Strauss might be the 'go-to' man back there though.

. Rivers is vulnerable beacuse he doesn't hurt teams the other way and is exploitable - he can't play on key players and he can't play on the smaller quick types either. It'll be interesting to see what he's like with a pre-season under his belt.

I don't think Cheney has the class to play as an attacking defender and if he isn't quicker than what he showed this year I don't see that he's a [long-term] solution for the quick smalls that most teams have. However, someone posted that he's had an ankle injury that impacted on his pace, so perhaps he can play that role in future.

I'm surprised to read all this criticism of Rivers. He has a terrific football brain - and he knits the young players together with his leadership and clever positional play. He wasn't at his best at times last year - but with a full pre-season under his belt I'd expect him to be an important part of our defence over the next few years.

To me there is something special about Bennell. He is an exciting prospect. Cheney is not a fashionable footballer - but he's shown enough at 19 to be given another chance.Although I would consider de-listing him , it would only be with the full intention of taking him back through the rookie list

I would delist Bartram without hesitation to get another pick

Anyway I heard Greg Denham on the radio this morning state that Ball has no interest in coming to Melbourne. Take it as you will.

If he has no interest in coming to Melbourne, then he will put himself into the National Draft, where we will not waste a pick on him.

Ball has said he doesn't want to play for Melbourne.

Ball has said he doesn't want to play for Melbourne.

Hmm Greg Denham has got things wrong before. I'm not taking it as gospel yet but things don't look good at the moment. Nether the less the Dees can make life really difficult for Collingwood, if Ball nominates for the national draft then he is available to anyone.

I wish we could [censored] this casey deal off get somewhere closer to home so players would actually consider coming too us. Im [censored] off because I always get my hopes up. Maybe I shouldn't get my hopes up about trengove and scully too so im not disapointted again if some how we don't choose the pair!