Chris Johnson

[Real Demon 232]

This thread is some kind of joke right?

For the sake of all humanity, can someone please confirm this is a joke!

[Demon16 69]

You presented an argument ? I thought that it was a cheap, throw away and ill informed comment and treated it accordingly.

Did I miss half a post ? Guide me to it.

you stated johnson was soft, i gave 3 examples of "champion" players, 2 of which are premiership players who are soft and the best you can come up with is "rubbish". it's an ill informed comment in your eyes (as is virtually everything anyone says that isn't the same as an opinion held by your good self) only because you cannot tell me soft players can often be champion players or major contributers to a premiership side.

[Bruce Almighty 0]

If the offer is good, there's no reason why we wouldn't consider it. But the club has identified the void in 25-27 year olds in the team, so if we do decide to trade him we'd need to find a way to replace his gap.

So does that rule D Kerr aged 25 out of the equation

[Eastie Boyz 0]

No, because they're saying there is a VOID eg NOTHING THERE and it needs to be filled.

So Kerr at 25 is perfect

[QueenC 74]

Trade CJ and I dont buy a membership!

Oh good lord :angry: .........

Whether you have that opinion or not, the team should always come first, even if it means CJ gets traded.

I think most in here will agree that while he has been great in recent times if a particularly juicy offer is put forward then his name could be looked at, but please dont see that as anyone (other than maybe Hannabal) wanting to see him traded, but that it all depends on what is on offer and what we need going forward.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Take it easy. I was just explaining the difference in 2 types of pressure.

What is it that you explained? I rechecked the thread but could find no explanation.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

I wouldn't hold your breathe on him replying - I'm still waiting for his rebuttal in another thread

[Roost It 1,434]

What is it that you explained? I rechecked the thread but could find no explanation.

Ok smart arse, what I was saying is they are 2 different types of pressure, I didn't, as you so smartly pointed out, actually explain each of them. I didn't think it was necessary. If you don't know the differencc then let me know and I'll explain it to you. By the way I wasn't criticising CJ or saying he couldn't handle pressure, that point was made by another. I was pointing out that there is a difference in the 2 types of pressure, but you already know that don't you.

By the way, for what it's worth if we are offered a second round pick for either CJ or PJ, say, pick 26, do you want the club to take it. I think this was basically the point of this thread.

[Rogue 585]

If the price was right, I'd trade him.

Ditto the other Johnson that's been mentioned in this thread, PJ.

However, PJ's worth to us, as a tall player, is likely going to be more than what CJ's is to us, as a HBF'er.

If the offer is good, there's no reason why we wouldn't consider it. But the club has identified the void in 25-27 year olds in the team, so if we do decide to trade him we'd need to find a way to replace his gap.

Fwiw, 25-27 is hardly 'his' gap - he's 22 (if you know that, I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place).

edit: did you mean this gap, referring to the 25-27 year olds? That'd make sense, but trading in a 27 year old isn't the way to go.

This thread is some kind of joke right?

For the sake of all humanity, can someone please confirm this is a joke!

It's better than the threads that suggest we can trade rubbish to get first and second round picks...

[QueenC 74]

It's better than the threads that suggest we can trade rubbish to get first and second round picks...

Oh I don't know Rogue, what do people actually think we could get for CJ !!!

[tez 6]

By the way, for what it's worth if we are offered a second round pick for either CJ or PJ, say, pick 26, do you want the club to take it. I think this was basically the point of this thread.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Must keep, good age as well, & a good kid.

Players such as Bruce & Carroll would be better elsewhere via tradeing.

[Jaded No More 58,658]

Sure I'd trade CJ, for a second round pick.

Who the hell will give us a second round pick for him? Nobody.

Given that we've put 5 years into him, and picked him up with a third round pick, trading him for his current market value seems like a completely futile exercise. The likelihood of getting someone better than CJ with a third/fourth round pick (what he is roughly worth), is slim.

There was a heated debate last year when CJ was put on the table during trade week. I argued that I do not want to get rid of him for the rumoured deal (late third round pick from memory), and I'm glad the club agreed. What we have in CJ may not be perfect, but the value he represents within the MFC far exceeds the value he represents in the open market, and hence he should and will stay.

[Rogue 585]

Oh I don't know Rogue, what do people actually think we could get for CJ !!!

Sure I'd trade CJ, for a second round pick.

Who the hell will give us a second round pick for him? Nobody.

[...] the value he represents within the MFC far exceeds the value he represents in the open market, and hence he should and will stay.

Agreed.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Ok smart arse, what I was saying is they are 2 different types of pressure, I didn't, as you so smartly pointed out, actually explain each of them. I didn't think it was necessary. If you don't know the differencc then let me know and I'll explain it to you. By the way I wasn't criticising CJ or saying he couldn't handle pressure, that point was made by another. I was pointing out that there is a difference in the 2 types of pressure, but you already know that don't you.

By the way, for what it's worth if we are offered a second round pick for either CJ or PJ, say, pick 26, do you want the club to take it. I think this was basically the point of this thread.

Easy with the name calling bud.

The point of my post was in defence of CJ and the reasons why I believe we need to hold on to him at this point. Like you I didn't feel the need to explain the difference between finals pressure and playing for your spot in my original post but you questioned whether I knew the difference . CJ hasnt played finals so if you want an indication of how he performs under pressure have a look at what he has done.

1. He has been dropped and was playing for his future. He was excellent when he went back to Sandy, lifted his head and lifted his game. He has had to fight hard to get into the senior side and has recently performed very well.

2. He also has the ability to hit targets in a footy game.

These indicate that CJ may be a player that peforms best when under pressure rather than the opposite. This is an indicator only. We won't know how he will perform in finals until we play a few.

Read the post again properly. Take your time and tell me the bit about where I get confused about the different types of pressure.

Don't be a sniper who waits for other people to put down intelligent posts with reasonable arguments, then pick out a point and try and discredit it. Present an argument or a explanation and we will debate it.

[Roost It 1,434]

Don't be a sniper who waits for other people to put down intelligent posts with reasonable arguments, then pick out a point and try and discredit it. Present an argument or a explanation and we will debate it.

If you look back you'll see that you picked out the point re: pressure and replied to me, pointing out that you had "rechecked the thread" now you're swinging it around on me. Anyway, all besides the point really. The point being, as I have already said, Would you trade CJ for pick 26, the rest of the banter is just that, banter.

[H_T 2,941]

If the price was right, I'd trade him.

Ditto the other Johnson that's been mentioned in this thread, PJ.

What price would that be for CJ?

[pantaloons 2,019]

Wow, I think I've mistakenly stumbled across Tantrumland. Anyhow, everyone is tradeable. As for Chris Johnson, I would have taken pick 60 for him last year. He's proven himself to be worth more than that this year. I couldn't see Melbourne and another club coming close to agreeing on his worth though. I doubt we'd get many offers better than the mid 30s for CJ, and after the development put into him, I doubt we'd accept much worse than 25 for him, unless the coaching staff see it along Hannabal's lines and want to get rid of him due to his weaknesses.

Personally, I'd keep him, for the reasons already stated about the difficulty agreeing on his worth, but also due to his age. He's also proven himself a useful contributor to the team and has improved with each game. I do see the point about his softness though. Hawthorn has a group of players who regularly soil their undergarments when the pressure is on - Young, Murphy, Clarke and the like. Melbourne made a concerted effort to unsettle them last time around and it worked well. Had we been a half decent outfit we would have beaten them that day. Come the finals, Geelong will squeeze these little athletes until they burst.

[Hannabal 4]

you stated johnson was soft, i gave 3 examples of "champion" players, 2 of which are premiership players who are soft and the best you can come up with is "rubbish". it's an ill informed comment in your eyes (as is virtually everything anyone says that isn't the same as an opinion held by your good self) only because you cannot tell me soft players can often be champion players or major contributers to a premiership side.

I stated that CJ was soft because he has demonstrated on numerous occasions a propensity to shirk contests in the air and on the ground. Once a player has shown this side of their makeup it's a long way back for me. Granted his attack on the ball has been better of late, but I'll not easily forget what I consider to be major flaws in his football character. When the heat is really on in a final what sort of performance is CJ going to give his teammates ? Because if you can't perform in a final you're as useful as a cold pie. I'm not sure if supporters understand the diference in pressure between a regular home and away match and a final. The difference is night and day.

Now, if you have never witnessed these instances of extreme tepidness that I refer to then I can understand your angst at the angle I'm coming from. However, the great past and present players you refer to are typical outside footballers, but that doesn't make them soft. Plenty of players aren't 'first dibs' footballers, or even 'predators', but it doesn't mean that they shirk contests, or don't go when it's their turn. I don't believe that you've presented good examples for your 'soft' argument.

The concerns that I have for CJ are similar to the concerns that I've held for Dunn, Davey, and Bruce - less so for the latter as I don't believe that he gets found out as much as the others in a quality game, but it's still a concern. Btw, I get no joy potting players and want success more, or as much as, anyone here, but I'm prepared to call it as I see it. And if it's old fashioned to think that there's no room for players in finals that don't keep their head over the ball, or go lower at the contest than their opponent, then so be it, guilty as charged, but I've seen no evidence to suggest the contrary. I've only seen a lack of footy nous on this website to understand what it takes to deliver when it matters most.

As for PJ ? I have concerns there as well. So some of you need to have a glass of water before reading on at the risk of hyperventilating. PJ is a handy footballer, but he doesn't dominate in any one position. He's not a dominant ruckman, he's not a dominant key position forward or back, and he can't dominate as a tall midfielder. I'm not sure if a top team, which we aspire to be, can afford to have a player that doesn't have one position on the ground in which he (occasionally) dominates. I do have a caveat though. He can perhaps be a handy second fiddle to a dominant ruckman and a side with a dominant key forward. Presently we have neither. For me, Jamar and PJ don't work, but I can see PJ being a handy foil for a first class ruckman. I think that if we can attract Robbie Warnock over that PJ could be an adequate back up and provide a difficult match up as he pushes forward, but we need a classy dominant ruckman around the ground to enable PJ to stretch the opposition. And that aint Jamar.

[H_T 2,941]

As for PJ ? I have concerns there as well. So some of you need to have a glass of water before reading on at the risk of hyperventilating. PJ is a handy footballer, but he doesn't dominate in any one position. He's not a dominant ruckman, he's not a dominant key position forward or back, and he can't dominate as a tall midfielder. I'm not sure if a top team, which we aspire to be, can afford to have a player that doesn't have one position on the ground in which he (occasionally) dominates. I do have a caveat though. He can perhaps be a handy second fiddle to a dominant ruckman and a side with a dominant key forward. Presently we have neither. For me, Jamar and PJ don't work, but I can see PJ being a handy foil for a first class ruckman. I think that if we can attract Robbie Warnock over that PJ could be an adequate back up and provide a difficult match up as he pushes forward, but we need a classy dominant ruckman around the ground to enable PJ to stretch the opposition. And that aint Jamar.

Had the glass of water thanks. I agree with you saying PJ is not a dominant ruckman and your point about attracting Robbie Warnock over.

What I will put forward - and I know every footballer is different and they mature at different stages. My point is David Hille, he was never a dominant type ruckman for Essendon until this year. Hille has taken several years, but has finally arrived IMO, and will probably get All Australian according to some scribes. PJ IMO is still developing and has shown many positive signs around the ground and in the centre as he progressively learns his trade.

I think a Warnock- PJ combo is a better option for us to be that aspired 'top team'

[jabberwocky 2,301]

H your idea for building the team is to demand excellence and discard those who dont perform to the highest level. I respect it and agree with this in principle but it doesn't take into account the differing rates of improvement that young players have. To trade away players that have just begun to develop and improve for a second or third round draft pick is not a good move.

Trades should come from players who have stalled in thier development, have an attitude problem or unnaceptable work rate or from the types of players which we have an oversupply.

Admittedly CJ was a player whose development stopped but if he continues and builds on his recent form he is a type of player that we need. I hate to see players shirk but there are plent of egs of AFL players who have changed this part of thier game with physical and mental maturity.

PJ has also improved and possesses some rare physical attribrutes for a big man that suggest he can improve further. I would like to see him hold his marks. If he continues his steady rate of improvement next year he may go from being handy to being dangerous IMO.

I would like to see how far these two players can improve.

Players who have stalled are Sylvia, Dunn, Bartram, Carroll.

If it looks like Warnock is coming on board then you would suggest Jamar would be offered.

Players with a questionable attitude/workrate ie Davey, Newton, Sylvia. People will disgaree with me on Davey. He needs to work harder. I suspect that he fears his hamstrings will go twang if he works too hard.

My point is trade the blokes on the downward slope or plateau. Not the blokes on the uphill climb because you don't know what heights they will reach.

[Deeoldfart 7,801]

And PJ. ............................. He replaces Doggie Brown. Someone who can inspire the team and show a bit of passion in his performances.

I'm not entering into any debate about who should / should not be traded, delisted etc. (people at the Club are in a far better position to make those judgements, and I'll back whatever they decide in terms of player personnel).

But I do like D t's comparison between Doggie and PJ. It hadn't occurred to me before this, but I reckon it's spot on.

[Hannabal 4]

H your idea for building the team is to demand excellence and discard those who dont perform to the highest level. I respect it and agree with this in principle but it doesn't take into account the differing rates of improvement that young players have. To trade away players that have just begun to develop and improve for a second or third round draft pick is not a good move.

Don't get the impression that I want to trade half the list, or that I'll be terribly disappointed if CJ remains, as neither are true. CAC used to say that trading is overrated and I tend to agree.

I also agree that there's little point trading unless you're pretty confident of improving your position. Which begs the question, how is this draft rated and how deep is it ? People scoff at pick 40 yet are pleased with Colin Garalnd who was recruited with a later pick. The first 25 in this draft are considered very good with it being quite interchangeable from 12-25 dependent upon a clubs needs or perceived rating.

I'm all for trading an oversupply, or those that are stalled. I love Bartram's guts and aggression, but in truth he lacks class and will only take us so far. Also, he has probably little trade value, and when I say value, I mean inside top 40, so for that reason he'll remain. Carroll won't get you a piece of burnt toast. Dunn at least has size and height, and despite my concerns he's presently worth keeping and developing. I'd trade Sylvia for pick 25, but would you get that much for him ? He has great natural ability, but no talent. The scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz has a better brain.

I want Robbie Warnock and CJ is from W.A so there's at least some synergy in that scenario. Whilst it would never be a straight swap perhaps something could be packaged. Also, it's not difficult to replace an average hbf, especially when Petterd and Grimes will be on the horizon in 09. With a potential backline consisting of Garland (who can play tall or small), Martin, Warnock, Whelan, Wheatley, Petterd, and Grimes, I see no great heartburn without CJ. You talk of oversupply, which is what I consider CJ. I purposely didn't include Bell.

I agree that some players have excellent upside and developmental possibilities. I also know that players are kept too long in the belief that they'll come good. CJ does have skill, which is in his favour. But remember, it's all well and good wanting to keep those with perceived upside and trade those that are going downhill or have stalled, but how stupid do you think the rest of the competition is ? There comes a point when a player has no value. The key is too offer something a little tasty, accept that they may go elsewhere and play well, but know that you have adequate replacements and also have a good understanding of how you can spend the proceeds. It's why the best list managers are paid very well.

[H_T 2,941]

Trades should come from players who have stalled in thier development, have an attitude problem or unnaceptable work rate or from the types of players which we have an oversupply.

Players who have stalled are Sylvia, Dunn, Bartram, Carroll.

Players with a questionable attitude/workrate ie Davey, Newton, Sylvia. People will disgaree with me on Davey. He needs to work harder. I suspect that he fears his hamstrings will go twang if he works too hard.

My point is trade the blokes on the downward slope or plateau. Not the blokes on the uphill climb because you don't know what heights they will reach.

Interesting Dandeemann, I agree with you on Davey with questionnable workrate/attitude. Have we seen the best of him?

I disagree with you on Dunn in terms of stalling.

[Roost It 1,434]

I disagree with you on Dunn in terms of stalling.

More travelling sideways as he learns a new craft, tagging the very best players in the league. I don't think Adam Cooney would think he's stalled