Ruckwork

[Rampaging Demons 1]

After watching our ruckmen get slaughtered early on by Guy Richards and Chris Bryan - it made me wonder whether we had a ruck coach?

It was obvious for all to see that they were jumping early and into White to negate but also use his leap, so why was the instruction not to stay down - as they did later. To vary their leaps, etc, etc. One dimensional early when being smacked!

Also, around the ground our ruckmen appeared to be in the wrong position and then the other way unable to present and make position.

When we are playing well - White looks good but the other evening when required to, he did not produce! Did not present around the ground and his opponent kicked goals on him!

Mark Jamar in the second half was very good!!

[Toad33 57]

Don't know. But I was thinking the same thing at the time.

Before the game I thought we would easily smash them in the ruck.

I guess we got complacent.

To me it looked like White wanted to push forward but was being dragged back into defence, only he wasn't following his opponent closeley and got caught out a couple of times.

It's a hard decision to make to run off your opponent in the middle of the ground to get ahead of the ball.

In White's defence it may have been turnovers that made him look worse than he really was (I haven't watched the replay yet to know for sure). If he is charging forward, off his opponent, and we turn the ball over in the middle of the ground, it is always going to look like he is playing loose. Had the ball NOT been turned over it would have looked like the Collingwood ruckman were playing loose or being lazy.

We do need a ruck coach, and someone who can coach, PJ, Bate, Dunn and Newton to be ruck rovers, not just tall KPP's.

Go Dees - Onward and Upward.

[DemonDave 1,082]

Juice Newton, or should I say the original Juice Newton, Leigh is doubling up roles with his main gig as media manager to help out with the ruck coaching this year I believe, a 'cost saving excercise'....

[Nasher 33,607]

Juice Newton, or should I say the original Juice Newton, Leigh is doubling up roles with his main gig as media manager to help out with the ruck coaching this year I believe, a 'cost saving excercise'....

Don't see how that saves costs, I believe when we had Sam Newman in he was doing it on a voluntary basis.

More likely we couldn't find anyone qualified who was interested.

[jacey 333]

After watching our ruckmen get slaughtered early on by Guy Richards and Chris Bryan - it made me wonder whether we had a ruck coach?

It was obvious for all to see that they were jumping early and into White to negate but also use his leap, so why was the instruction not to stay down - as they did later. To vary their leaps, etc, etc. One dimensional early when being smacked!

Also, around the ground our ruckmen appeared to be in the wrong position and then the other way unable to present and make position.

When we are playing well - White looks good but the other evening when required to, he did not produce! Did not present around the ground and his opponent kicked goals on him!

Mark Jamar in the second half was very good!!

As much as we need a ruck coach, we are in more desperate need of a RUCK.

It's time Jeff for u to go and play a KPP in the backline or have a crack as a pure midfielder.

Jamar and PJ must take full responsibilties now.

C'mon Riley. Show some adventure and maybe we could solve two problems in one go.

[Demons 32 235]

As much as we need a ruck coach, we are in more desperate need of a RUCK.

It's time Jeff for u to go and play a KPP in the backline or have a crack as a pure midfielder.

Jamar and PJ must take full responsibilties now.

C'mon Riley. Show some adventure and maybe we could solve two problems in one go.

Surely Jeff White would be better fit in a forward pocket. I don't think someone who has never had to chase would be suited for the backline.

[warren dean 193]

We have had a few good ruck coaches over the past few years, icluding Simon Madden in ND's first couple of years, Jim Stynes and Sam Newman. I really think the circle has found White out, and I wonder if Jamar is ever going to be good enough. I have seen some signs from PJ and I think he really will be able a capable forward/second ruck. In hindsight the Jolly clearance is looking less and less inspired. Guessit depends on how good Dunn turns out to be! Hopefully Sheeds might be able to lure Laycock over with him. Do supporters realise he was taken with the pick we traded for Heffernan in 02? So he really is our player anyway!!

[Nicho 1]

Don't see how that saves costs, I believe when we had Sam Newman in he was doing it on a voluntary basis.

More likely we couldn't find anyone qualified who was interested.

I love Sam Newman i think hes great...

And even tho he was doing it volunatary and he didnt know the ruckmans names he was effective.....

Jeff White just needs to work his arse of like he used to and dominate around the ground.... Thats what made him the brownlow fav after round 18 and won him a B & F a few years ago.

[beelzebub 23,200]

It not even a matter of Jeffs work rate..for its pretty good. The lad does try.. and he is effective around the ground. He is simply too short ( beleive it or not ) for the main role now. The rules changed and negated the influence of his great leap. He was obsolete overnight ( in the middle ) . We've struggled ever since. He will have to do next year though. We wont have any solution overnight.

We simply need new ruck stock. jamar and Johnson havent quite met the bar so to speak. Near enough isnt good enough.

So before we worry too much about our ruck coaching...lets actually get some talent in who will be capable and coachable. Horse before cart as it were !!

This is why the draft is so important this year.

[DemonDave 1,082]

I love Sam Newman i think hes great...

And even tho he was doing it volunatary and he didnt know the ruckmans names he was effective.....

Jeff White just needs to work his arse of like he used to and dominate around the ground.... Thats what made him the brownlow fav after round 18 and won him a B & F a few years ago.

I think people are forgetting that Jeff White leads all ruckmen for posessions around the ground this year, and unless I'm mistaken leade the league in hitouts? He's having a pretty decent year all things considered...

[DemonDave 1,082]

Correction, he's 2 behind in 2nd:

Rank Player Team Games Stat

1 Brendon Lade Port Adelaide 20 404

2 Jeff White Melbourne 20 402

3 Aaron SandilandsFremantle 15 399

4 Darren Jolly Sydney 20 395

5 Dean Cox West Coast 17 366

6 Hamish McIntosh Kangaroos 20 362

6 Peter Everitt Sydney 20 362

8 Benjamin Hudson Adelaide 19 341

9 Mark Blake Geelong 18 327

10 Jamie Charman Brisbane 17 314

[jacey 333]

I think people are forgetting that Jeff White leads all ruckmen for posessions around the ground this year, and unless I'm mistaken leade the league in hitouts? He's having a pretty decent year all things considered...

Anyone who considers White in the top ten ruckmen are seriously deluded.

He's ineffective in the ruck and gets ragged doll. He is effective around the ground but he does pick up a few cheap possesions cruising by looking for a handball. He's a ruckmen so provide contest downfield rather then looking for the cheap possessions.

I'm not calling for him to be dropped or delisted as i do believe his got talent and got something to offer but not in the ruck or fwd line.

belzebub59 is right. the lad tries but just isn't big enuf to go with the big boys.

[DV8 2,271]

Correction, he's 2 behind in 2nd:

Rank Player Team Games Stat

1 Brendon Lade Port Adelaide 20 404

2 Jeff White Melbourne 20 402

3 Aaron SandilandsFremantle 15 399

4 Darren Jolly Sydney 20 395

5 Dean Cox West Coast 17 366

6 Hamish McIntosh Kangaroos 20 362

6 Peter Everitt Sydney 20 362

8 Benjamin Hudson Adelaide 19 341

9 Mark Blake Geelong 18 327

10 Jamie Charman Brisbane 17 314

It's no good when 2 outa 3 hitouts go to the opp'.

[DemonDave 1,082]

It's no good when 2 outa 3 hitouts go to the opp'.

Well some of the blame for that has to be put on our much vaunted young gun midfield. We lag behind in clearances. There's simply not enough guyss that are smart enough to get first hands on the football.

[jacey 333]

Well some of the blame for that has to be put on our much vaunted young gun midfield. We lag behind in clearances. There's simply not enough guyss that are smart enough to get first hands on the football.

More like White doesn't tap. He just thumps it forward. White does not feed our midfielders.

[beelzebub 23,200]

you'll find that about 90% of White's ruck wins are at throw ins. He can use his nouse there. In the middle he is eclipsed other than the times he meets inferior opposition. In the middle he would be soundly beaten overall.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We simply need new ruck stock. jamar and Johnson havent quite met the bar so to speak. Near enough isnt good enough.

Correct. If we cant get a Dean Cox (I wish!!!), then we need a ruckman who is competitive to nullify the opposition rucks and make it a battle of the midfields.

Our midfield needs to improve though.

Well some of the blame for that has to be put on our much vaunted young gun midfield. We lag behind in clearances. There's simply not enough guyss that are smart enough to get first hands on the football.

Correct Demon Dave.

you'll find that about 90% of White's ruck wins are at throw ins. He can use his nouse there. In the middle he is eclipsed other than the times he meets inferior opposition. In the middle he would be soundly beaten overall.

Nil.

In both games against Richmond and Carlton White absolutely pants the opposition rucks and where was our midfield. They got absolutely thrashed.

It only highlights that if you have an ineffective midfielder having a gun ruckman is neither here nor there as the superior opposition midfield will merely win the centre contest.

More like White doesn't tap. He just thumps it forward. White does not feed our midfielders.

ATM Our midfielders cant get the ball...period

[Toad33 57]

It not even a matter of Jeffs work rate..for its pretty good. The lad does try.. and he is effective around the ground. He is simply too short ( beleive it or not ) for the main role now. The rules changed and negated the influence of his great leap. He was obsolete overnight ( in the middle ) . We've struggled ever since. He will have to do next year though. We wont have any solution overnight.

We simply need new ruck stock. jamar and Johnson havent quite met the bar so to speak. Near enough isnt good enough.

So before we worry too much about our ruck coaching...lets actually get some talent in who will be capable and coachable. Horse before cart as it were !!

This is why the draft is so important this year.

Do you really think some young 18 year old kid will 'pants' either PJ or Russian. Until the 'messiah' arrives they will do just nicely thanks.

Anyone who considers White in the top ten ruckmen are seriously deluded.

He's ineffective in the ruck and gets ragged doll. He is effective around the ground but he does pick up a few cheap possesions cruising by looking for a handball. He's a ruckmen so provide contest downfield rather then looking for the cheap possessions.

I'm not calling for him to be dropped or delisted as i do believe his got talent and got something to offer but not in the ruck or fwd line.

belzebub59 is right. the lad tries but just isn't big enuf to go with the big boys.

Only because the midfielders are NOT there doing it. I think they call running to, and past contests, WORK RATE. perhaps you have heard of it?

Correct. If we cant get a Dean Cox (I wish!!!), then we need a ruckman who is competitive to nullify the opposition rucks and make it a battle of the midfields.

Our midfield needs to improve though.

Correct Demon Dave.

Nil.

In both games against Richmond and Carlton White absolutely pants the opposition rucks and where was our midfield. They got absolutely thrashed.

It only highlights that if you have an ineffective midfielder having a gun ruckman is neither here nor there as the superior opposition midfield will merely win the centre contest.

ATM Our midfielders cant get the ball...period

Perhaps Grant Thomas was right when he said ruckman are overrated?

What we need is a competitive ruck 'combination', including inside midfielders, stoppers and outside midfielders in the centre or around EVERY ruck contest. Good midfielders can read, and work off the opposition so a dominant ruckman is NOT absolutely crucial.

Go Dees - Onward and Upward

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Do you really think some young 18 year old kid will 'pants' either PJ or Russian. Until the 'messiah' arrives they will do just nicely thanks.

Only because the midfielders are NOT there doing it. I think they call running to, and past contests, WORK RATE. perhaps you have heard of it?

Perhaps Grant Thomas was right when he said ruckman are overrated?

What we need is a competitive ruck 'combination', including inside midfielders, stoppers and outside midfielders in the centre or around EVERY ruck contest. Good midfielders can read, and work off the opposition so a dominant ruckman is NOT absolutely crucial.

Go Dees - Onward and Upward

Ruckman are overrated. They few if any good ones. And if even if you have a Cox it wont help you if midfield is ordinary. A dominant ruckman is a hope and a nice to have. I think your assessment of whats needed is right.

I would actually prefer a fit Cousins or Kerr or Judd to a gun ruckman.

[beelzebub 23,200]

ruckmen overated ??

must be some other parallel dimensioned AFL I watch then !!

First use of ball comes from a coherent partnership between rucks and rover ( midfield etc)

to say Ruckmen are over rated is to me bizarre...as is anything Thomas says!!

[TonyMelb 7]

Ruckman are overrated. They few if any good ones. And if even if you have a Cox it wont help you if midfield is ordinary. A dominant ruckman is a hope and a nice to have. I think your assessment of whats needed is right.

I would actually prefer a fit Cousins or Kerr or Judd to a gun ruckman.

There is a two level problem here. in a number of games Whitey and PJ/Jamar have dominated centre hit outs BUT the opposition has dominated the clearances. Its a combination of poor tap work and poor mid field positioning. Whiteyhas never been a great tap ruckman as low % of hit out wone go to the MFC midfielder. Compare with Jamar who is a good tap ruck and hits a target more often. The guys do drills and practice set ups even in pregame warm ups but cant put it into effect ofetn enough in tight games.

Need some alternative set ups and switch plays to prevent the opposition reading the taps.

Could never see how Juice Newton version 1 was going to cover this in 2007. I cant remember him playing as a ruckman at all??

It is one area that the new coaching group[ needs to work on as a priority. MFC has got better than average ruck stocks and good mid field contingent. should be able to get more out of them.

One thing I dont understand as an example is why the ruck men still feel restrained by the centre circle when there is a secondary bounce???? Surely the cirlce only applies to the first bounce after a goal. get ball held in 1st time and then whitey should go back and take his full run and leap for 2nd.

Perhaps that tooo hard????

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

ruckmen overated ??

must be some other parallel dimensioned AFL I watch then !!

First use of ball comes from a coherent partnership between rucks and rover ( midfield etc)

to say Ruckmen are over rated is to me bizarre...as is anything Thomas says!!

That may well be the case.

But getting your hand on the ball first is negligible if you are tapping to a crap midfield. And MFC's midfield (Jones aside) has been pedestrian at best.

Look at the statistics from the Carlton and Richmond games. White flogged them in the centre and how many clearances and possessions did our midfield get?

When WCE had a flat patch during the year, Cox was still getting 30 tap outs and 16 possessions but in the absence of Kerr, Cousins and Judd, it did little to impact the result.

[sylvinator 96]

That may well be the case.

But getting your hand on the ball first is negligible if you are tapping to a crap midfield. And MFC's midfield (Jones aside) has been pedestrian at best.

Look at the statistics from the Carlton and Richmond games. White flogged them in the centre and how many clearances and possessions did our midfield get?

When WCE had a flat patch during the year, Cox was still getting 30 tap outs and 16 possessions but in the absence of Kerr, Cousins and Judd, it did little to impact the result.

I do not think ruckman are overated...it has been bloody obvious that a good 2-team ruck devision is vital to premiership success. just look at recent premiers. Cox/ Seaby, Ball/Jolly, Lade/Brogan...

Sydney wouldnt have won their premiership in 2005 had it not been for Ball's deft tapwork in the sydney forward line (reminder: Nick Davis' goal).

However, i believe that a midfield that knows how to get clearences is just as important.

I honestly believe that if we had Kerr and Foley in our team, White would have the same amount of hitouts, but we'd have double the amount of clearences...getting a midfield clearence is a skill.

[Toad33 57]

However, i believe that a midfield that knows how to get clearences is just as important.

I honestly believe that if we had Kerr and Foley in our team, White would have the same amount of hitouts, but we'd have double the amount of clearences...getting a midfield clearence is a skill.

Completely agree.

Has anyone noticed how St Kilda are using Jason Blake as a third man up. He got 15 taps outs last week, the same as Clarke, even though he is a ruck rover the same height as at Cameron Bruce 189cm!!!!

As I said in my last post. A good combination is what is required.

Whether people like it or not we HAVE missed Godfrey in the middle. His 'type' is one aspect of a good midfield.

Go Dees - Onward and Upward

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I do not think ruckman are overated...it has been bloody obvious that a good 2-team ruck devision is vital to premiership success. just look at recent premiers. Cox/ Seaby, Ball/Jolly, Lade/Brogan...

Sydney wouldnt have won their premiership in 2005 had it not been for Ball's deft tapwork in the sydney forward line (reminder: Nick Davis' goal).

However, i believe that a midfield that knows how to get clearences is just as important.

I honestly believe that if we had Kerr and Foley in our team, White would have the same amount of hitouts, but we'd have double the amount of clearences...getting a midfield clearence is a skill.

And behind everyone of those teams is a dominating midfield. Your rucks need to be competitive. Sydney with just Jolly fell a little short. But your midfielde must be superior. Its where the game is won and lost. Your last sentence creams it.

Geelong are 4 games clear this year....because of Blake and Ottens

Whether people like it or not we HAVE missed Godfrey in the middle. His 'type' is one aspect of a good midfield.

Its indicative of the hole MFC is in that we have to play him.

For all his endeavour and effort, Godfrey is a disaster in the midfield. Lacking in pace, poor disposal and no peripheral vision, MFC will go no where in the midfield if it has players of that calibre.

Would the leading teams like Geelong, Swans and WCE have a player like Godfrey in it? I doubt it.

If it was not for the logjam of retiring players and NQR, Godfrey would be delisted. I would be surprised if a side seriously contending for the flag would pick him up.