things to ponder

[BrownlowBruce 1]

just been ponderin a few things

Brock Mclean captain next year? thoughts everyone?

never been keen on this idea, has proven he is not ready.

Colin silvia leadership group next year?

should or will netiz be captain?

Mathew bate ... wat happened?

where has he gone ive barily spotted his read hair the last 3 weeks.

Jamar get a chance to prove himself?

I wouldnt mind see jamar playin a game.... and possibly playin 3 ruckmen. neitz + newton + one of any PJ jamar and white in forward line would be interesting to see all game.

Nathan Brown, Daniel Ward or Simon godfrey?

Who goes and who stays, personally i think brown has more value than both of them.

Bizzel , will he stay?

will he retire and save possible delisting?

[Gorgoroth 12,924]

just been ponderin a few things

Brock Mclean captain next year? thoughts everyone?

never been keen on this idea, has proven he is not ready.

Still possibly not ready, but he is a better option than nearly everyone else. Would really help if we blocked for him like west coast do for judd.

Colin silvia leadership group next year? If his body holds up after next year and he is discipline for the year then yes. But not next year.

should or will netiz be captain? Best option by a long way, but will he? i don't think so.

Mathew bate ... wat happened? Slow movement through the back half and middle kill all our forwards, everytime the ball went near him it was a bad kick and he had more than 1 opponent.

where has he gone ive barily spotted his read hair the last 3 weeks.

Jamar get a chance to prove himself? Doubt it. Unleass injury, he has had a lot more games than PJ.

I wouldnt mind see jamar playin a game.... and possibly playin 3 ruckmen. neitz + newton + one of any PJ jamar and white in forward line would be interesting to see all game.

Nathan Brown, Daniel Ward or Simon godfrey?

Who goes and who stays, personally i think brown has more value than both of them.

In a perfect world all 3 go, but i think godfrey would be the safest of them all.

Bizzel , will he stay?

will he retire and save possible delisting?

The bizz should be given a 1 year contract.

[Rampaging Demons 1]

I again went yesterday and must have been part of 1000 demons there....

other things to ponder: -

professional athletes that keep falling over on a terrible surface - both teams did it

the lack of another crumbing forward - spare me with nathan brown.. was he meant to crumb or tag archer - he did neither!

the inability to win a clearance when winning hitouts - yet again!! do we practice this or is it not hit to the right spot or are we not in the right spot. the kangas were loving white winning...

the manning up of players - jess sinclair appeared to not have a man...

godfrey tried hard but was beaten by a bloke that runs so wide he is in the grandstand - he does not deserve to win a brownlow and would join dipper!!!

slow movement into our forward line was terrible and predictable and how the roos backmen loved it - if only they had done the same thing, it may have meant that our defenders could zone off and spoil!!!

and ward and doggy brown's skills - we have seen them all before, we know what they give to us, so surely it is time to drop them when injuries and suspensions allow!!

also drew petrie should cop a couple of weeks for the elbow too!!

it is frustrating to go to the footy and watch the dribble that was dished up yesterday but buckley, newton, jones, frawley and junior mac make me wanna turn up each week!!

[Jaded No More 68,867]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but I need to air my frustration with Jeff White.

He is not the slowest player in the team to dispose of the ball? Just get rid of it Whitey... by the time you make a decision, the opposition have zoned-off or manned-up.

It's incredibly frustrating.

I'd like CJ to be played as a crumber up forward, and Belly (if fit) to replace Ward down back ASAP!

Wouldn't mind giving Warnock a game either.

[45HG 1,539]

for mine it has to be that i understand injuries affect the team rah rah, but i don't understand why it has seemingly made us play incredibly stupid football.

the one that really springs to mine is paul johnson on the mark when a kangas guy had the footy, pj's man ran behind the man with the footy, so pj decided to run all the way around him to get to his man behind the guy with the footy, guess what? the kangas player simply played on because no one was on the mark.

it's only one instance of seemingly quite a few (many expletives were shouted throughout the evening). oh, another one was 4 melbourne players standing in a line across the field calling for the ball. only one can get it, was anybody thinking?

it just gets to me that we can play such mindless football on some occassions

[Deelusioned 0]

for mine it has to be that i understand injuries affect the team rah rah, but i don't understand why it has seemingly made us play incredibly stupid football.

the one that really springs to mine is paul johnson on the mark when a kangas guy had the footy, pj's man ran behind the man with the footy, so pj decided to run all the way around him to get to his man behind the guy with the footy, guess what? the kangas player simply played on because no one was on the mark.

it's only one instance of seemingly quite a few (many expletives were shouted throughout the evening). oh, another one was 4 melbourne players standing in a line across the field calling for the ball. only one can get it, was anybody thinking?

it just gets to me that we can play such mindless football on some occassions

I remember thinking what the hell is he doing there too. Who was meant to be on the mark though and if PJ had stayed on it would have his man run on and received the pass anyways?

You were yelling? Good on you bc there was none of it going on near me.

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

Brock is not ready to be captain. Neita it falls on your massive shoulders for at least another 12 months

Bater has been disappointing the last 2 weeks but destroyed but was among the best in our 3 wins. Nearly BOG against Carlton and Collingwood. He will learn how to have an impact each week going forward

Jamar needs to get a couple of games before seasons end, I would even consider giving Whitey a rest for a couple of weeks. Apparently he did well this week for Sandy so give him a chance to show what he has in him if for nothing other than trying to create some trade value at seasons end

Brown & Ward = gone...Godders 1 more year

Bizz - 1 more year

[Rampaging Demons 1]

The run and carry game plan was also back in vogue yesterday....

got warned for shouting out - just kick the bl00dy thing!!

also, the number of times that kangaroos were on their own, with not a demon in sight....

i felt like getting the sniper rifle out and helping shoot a roo!!

if brown and ward are there next year, then the membership could be at an alltime low!!

[loges 6,767]

The run and carry game plan was also back in vogue yesterday....

got warned for shouting out - just kick the bl00dy thing!!

also, the number of times that kangaroos were on their own, with not a demon in sight....

i felt like getting the sniper rifle out and helping shoot a roo!!

if brown and ward are there next year, then the membership could be at an alltime low!!

The worrying thing is this side is just going through the motions playing out the year. They have fallen far far off the pace. Despite some good cameos from younger players its a long way back to where we were. P.S. Brock is not the messiah we all hoped he would be

[beelzebub 23,313]

Brock Mclean captain next year? thoughts everyone?

Colin silvia leadership group next year?

should or will netiz be captain?

Mathew bate ... wat happened?

Jamar get a chance to prove himself?

Nathan Brown, Daniel Ward or Simon godfrey?

Bizzel , will he stay?

I think common sense ought to prevail with Neeta still captain.. Brock in understudy mode...

Sylvia could definitely be in the leadership group

Bate will come good...dont sweat it :-)

jamar just isnt there is he.. trade him.. give game time to other

Brown..Ward to go .. maybe Keep Gods one more year

Biz..a conundrum now..certainly been ok...but hardly a big ask in our team of late.. Delist...make room for youth.

[Rampaging Demons 1]

the problem is that should we have all our players up and going we are a top four team.... therefore will the coach be expected to make the finals or to rebuild.. this will have a significant bearing on the delisting of players!!

why is junior mac not captain?? again he put his body and head over the ball, does the little things right and works his butt off.....

do we put neitz and robbo out for a few weeks or the season....

the benefit of a fully fit team, that has endured a long preseason is shown in what the kangaroos are currently doing!!

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

the benefit of a fully fit team, that has endured a long preseason is shown in what the kangaroos are currently doing!!

great point Rampaging...Port Adelaide are evidence of this also.

[Gouga 566]

just been ponderin a few things

Brock Mclean captain next year? thoughts everyone?

never been keen on this idea, has proven he is not ready.

Colin silvia leadership group next year?

should or will netiz be captain?

Mathew bate ... wat happened?

where has he gone ive barily spotted his read hair the last 3 weeks.

Jamar get a chance to prove himself?

I wouldnt mind see jamar playin a game.... and possibly playin 3 ruckmen. neitz + newton + one of any PJ jamar and white in forward line would be interesting to see all game.

Nathan Brown, Daniel Ward or Simon godfrey?

Who goes and who stays, personally i think brown has more value than both of them.

Bizzel , will he stay?

will he retire and save possible delisting?

My leadership group for next year would be:

David Neitz ©, Brock McLean (VC), James McDonald, Jared Rivers, Colin Sylvia

I would delist:

Brown, Holland, Neville, Pickett and Ward

Bizzell, Ferguson, Godfrey, Miller and Warnock all get one more crack at it.

Jamar:

Said it before and will say it again. MUST BE ON OUR LIST NEXT YEAR! Whether he plays again this year is irrelevant.

[Jaded No More 68,867]

My leadership group for next year would be:

David Neitz ©, Brock McLean (VC), James McDonald, Jared Rivers, Colin Sylvia

I'd replace Sylvia with Jones or Bell.

Sylvia needs to concentrate on getting his body right, before he is even considered as a leader.

[bjgc 0]

There are about 4 million things to ponder.

I honestley don't understand why Cameron has such big wraps on him. He has been around as long as Daniher the only 2 players he has not recruited are Neitz and Yze and the side still has holes all over the field but people still say he is a genius. We don't have a full back I think there are a lot of people losing faith in Carroll. We don't have any dashing halfback\ wingman who can use the ball. We can't get a centre clearance. We have no one to replace White. We don't have a strong CHF Bate is more a half forward, Newton needs a big year in the gym Robertson should be the 3rd marking forward not the second and we don't have a small forward to help out Davey to at least keep the ball in the forward line which is extreamly important considering how poor Robertson and Neitz are defencively.

McLean should not be captain until he gets fit enough to break tags. What I don't understand is that Riley said we have to chop out Davey's taggers what about Mclean's taggers why don't they not get someone to chop out Rawlings he and everyone that has tagged him have been able to do what they like. I don't think anyone helps out anyone at this club.

I think we should delist are :

BIZZELL : He has only had 2 good games which were his first game and the Carlton game not good enough for a player playing for his spot. Too old, too slow not accountable.

HOLLAND : Out of favour, too slow, too old.

C.JOHNSON : Has stagnated is not coming on quickly enough.

BROWN : Gone backwards, Ward, Wheatley and Godfrey are in front of him.

NEVILLE : Not coming on at all and because we have had such a bad year he can't be carried.

PICKETT : He's not interested in playing needs to retire.

FERGUSON : His career has gone nowhere he needs to look at another club.

I think would should trade at least one of Miller, Jamar or Green. Miller traded to Brisbane would be my prefered option.

That gives us 8 players. The good thing for our recruiting manager is that we have so many holes in our team that he can go for the best player available. I think we need a key back and forward, a ruckman, 2 centre clearance midfielders, 2 running midfielders and a small forward.

[drdrake 3,162]

Mclean, needs another preseason and needs to learn how to beat a heavy tag, that should be his focus for 2008 not leading the MFC, in 2009 if he achieves this then he should be Captain.

Sylvia to Leadership group not yet, let him do a full preseason get into the midfield and establish himself as one of the top players of the AFL.

Biz, don't know one thing is two of Biz, Ferguson, Warnock and Holland will be gone next year which two I'd say Biz and Ferguson, with Rivers back next year Biz doesn't have a role.

Another thing when will the Melb Medical staff step in and say Robbo time for spell and get your body right for next year, he cant run and will keep trying until he completely breaks down, or is Robbo playng to win another leadng goal kicker, put him in the paddock next to Whelan, Rivers, Yze and Bartram.

When do we give up on Miller? I like the guy but since he has taken the aggression at the contest out of his game he has been useless. Either get that straight line running at the contest back or pack your bags, in dog terms he was a Doverman now he is a Lap dog, get your bite bag Miller you no good with out it.

[dee-luded 2,959]

just been ponderin a few things

Brock Mclean captain next year? thoughts everyone? No

never been keen on this idea, has proven he is not ready.

Colin silvia leadership group next year? No

should or will netiz be captain? Yes

Mathew bate ... wat happened? He's young

where has he gone ive barily spotted his read hair the last 3 weeks.

Jamar get a chance to prove himself? Yes, still developing

I wouldnt mind see jamar playin a game.... and possibly playin 3 ruckmen. neitz + newton + one of any PJ jamar and white in forward line would be interesting to see all game.

Nathan Brown, Daniel Ward or Simon godfrey?

Who goes and who stays, personally i think brown has more value than both of them. Nathan Brown, Daniel Ward going

Bizzel , will he stay? Yes, stay

will he retire and save possible delisting?

[Goodvibes 3,596]

I honestley don't understand why Cameron has such big wraps on him. He has been around as long as Daniher the only 2 players he has not recruited are Neitz and Yze and the side still has holes all over the field but people still say he is a genius. We don't have a full back I think there are a lot of people losing faith in Carroll. We don't have any dashing halfback\ wingman who can use the ball. We can't get a centre clearance. We have no one to replace White. We don't have a strong CHF Bate is more a half forward, Newton needs a big year in the gym Robertson should be the 3rd marking forward not the second and we don't have a small forward to help out Davey to at least keep the ball in the forward line which is extreamly important considering how poor Robertson and Neitz are defencively.

Mate, I think it's a bit simplistic to state that because CAC has drafted all bar 2 on our list that he is responsible for the holes. Issues to consider include:

1. The ability of our coaching staff to develop drafted players - not to mention the clubs financial ability to hire a football department to match Collingwood and the interstate teams;

2. Initiative of coaching staff to try players in different positions (the fullback hole that you've alluded to has been filled at many other clubs by one-time forwards);

3. The capacity for our club to entice players from other clubs to fill holes in our list. Look at the big teams - Essendon need another big bodied defender - Mal Michael, Sydney needed a focal point up forward - Barry Hall and a better ruck than Jolly and the get Everitt, West Coast needed a negating midfielder - Tyson Stenglein, and of course the richest of the Vic clubs Collingwood have a proud tradition of filling key posts with recruits of the calibre of Buckley and Rocca. Richest club in the land Adelaide were able to entice Carey and don't be surprised if they get Pavlich. Bizzel, Holland and Pickett were hardly coups and would Moloney be in Geelong's best 22 at the moment?;

4. The ability of our club to hold on to our best players. You allude to being unable to get a centre clearance - Scotty Thompson appears to be pretty good at doing that at Adelaide!;

5. Oh and the basic principle of picking the best available as opposed to meeting needs come draft time that Melbourne like most other clubs seem to publicly endorse.

[Little Goffy 14,451]

Presuming we only manage one more win, we should get picks -

2, 19, 20, 34

or something like that. So Definately a good idea to delist four for a starter, I'd say.

Brown and Ward just turn the ball over or screw up some other way far too often - when you're trying to build up the confidence of the younger guys you can't have experienced players constantly sending us into mad scrambles to cover sudden big holes (consider poor Frawley against the Roos - that's just not fair on a young guy).

Dropping these two reinforces the usefulness of keeping Yze, covering the role Brown & Ward have filled, except with maybe some footskills. Don't forget Whelan, too. And Bartram, Petterd, Bell... all better options for skill and discipline. Five players out who would all be ahead of Ward & Brown.

I think Holland can go. Gorilla-keeper theory is all nice, but Rocca must be the only major FF slow enough for Holland to still be there when it counts.

Dropping Holland increases the value of experimenting a little more with Miller. I think he might have been a decent FF if the spot had been there when young, but it doesn't look like it'll ever happen now. So give him some time down back and see if he can step up next year. If not, it would probably be his last.

I'm over Pickett, to be honest. I'd want to hear a reason for him to be kept, rather than feeling a need to justify his departure.

So that is four.

Notwithstanding above comments, I'd accept a good-value trade for Miller. Might be best for him too.

Jamar is now behind PJ, and honestly I've lost confidence in Jamar's prospects for improvement. A lot of clubs need a 'decent' ruckman, and I still reckon we should be aiming for a top quality ruckman with the first pick, so I think the trade would work out. But I'd hardly be upset if he was kept another year.

If a trade like the one arranged for Walsh (to Port for about a three-pick advancement in the third round of the draft) could be arranged for Ferguson, it might be best for all concerned. Again, no problem for me if we persevere with him. I like the guy, despite his appaling luck.

I'd like to keep the established playing group mostly together - I'd be horrified if Green or Bruce were traded on the eve of a new coach who might be able to push them the extra step to champion level.

As to coaching, I like Todd Viney simply because he got results in the Hawthorn midfield. He's also got out-of-AFL coaching experience and fitness expertise.

And can we please bring in Jimmy Stynes for even a couple of sessions a week as a specialist ruck coach.

Hmmm... that made me think of something - Jeff White's miserable habit of winning hit-outs and tapping to disadvantage has been around a while and is getting worse... is he teachable? Maybe he thinks he owns the ruck position? Both Jamar & Jolly were starved for opportunity because White liked to ruck alone. And other people's comments about his slow slow decision making and low impact despite his pretty good stats ring true to me as well. I've lost confidence in him and honestly think he's a smokey for a shock delisting! Jamar, PJ, Neaves and a top draft pick as a ruck division would be a risk, but when you really think about it, what is White providing at the moment?

So, do I get the coaching job?

[deewag 22]

Realistically we cannot contend for the flag until 2010. By that time the following players should have or will have retired or been delisted.

White, McDonald, Bizzell, Ward, Brown, Holland, Pickett, Neitz, Yze, Whelan?

There is another list that will never be good enough to play in a grand final side

Godfrey, Jamar, Miller, Ferguson

And players who are marginal at the moment but probably need a boost from a new coach to foster their career

C Johnson, Buckley, Dunn, Newton, Neville, Warnock, P Johnson.

Therefore for the 2008 year we need to purge the club and build for the future.

Of the three lists above I would not touch the third list this year as they may have a future.

That leaves the following players to go at the end of the 2007 year. Brown, Ward, Pickett, Holland, Godfrey and Ferguson.

We could consider a trade of TJ for a player such as Brent Staker (possible CHB or CHF)

The following year I would expect that White, McDonald, Neitz and Yze to retire plus a couple of other delistings, possibly Miller and Jamar.

We must look at a plan for the future and not hang on to players who will not bring success to the club. This has happened over the last three years because ND thought we were close to winning a flag, but that time has passed now.