19 hours ago, Adam The God said:

I think his kicking is mostly linked to fitness. He'll dump kick if he's exhausted. The fitter he gets, the better his ball use. Exhibit A 2021-2022.

If he even gets close to that acceleration out of the contest and clearing kick that we saw that year then I won't have any qualms at all about his kicking.

I was so encouraged by his game on Monday, I almost had him best on ground. He's not quite what he once was but he's inching closer and closer.

I think there's more from Clarry to come.

25 minutes ago, layzie said:

If he even gets close to that acceleration out of the contest and clearing kick that we saw that year then I won't have any qualms at all about his kicking.

I was so encouraged by his game on Monday, I almost had him best on ground. He's not quite what he once was but he's inching closer and closer.

I think there's more from Clarry to come.

Me too mate. Thought he was second best on the ground, but I note he didn't get a single coaches vote. I had him as a damaging score chain player and a vital extractor on the day.

But we all see it differently.

I think Clarry can play much better mind you, but that's because for a while there he was the best player in the competition.

Unfortunately for the fans, something has to give.

It's a nice thought to be of the view that Trac and Clarry are getting back to their best. And even if they are, (I'm skeptical) their weaknesses as players too often highlight our issues as an entire side and too often it rears its head. Far too often. Not sure if I mentioned how often. TOO often.

Take nothing away from our 2021 finals series and run to that incredible campaign. It was magic.

But I think if supporters look through a broader lens at our issues from years 18-25, you'll see that not a lot has changed.

Whether it's inaccuracy at goal, wasted inside 50's, bombing long, missed kicks or handballs, the theme is always the same. And they're all symptoms of an issue that we've always had.

Composure.

Across the board, too many individuals that we've persisted with do not possess enough of this trait. And it's been our Achilles heel for coming on eight years. Granted, Godwin's game-plan and our list build didn't require a great deal of compusure which is why we still see the lingering effects in our current on-field performance.

If I'm going to be blunt, I don't think we can go into 26' with Viney, Trac and Oliver playing together. And I actually think the best move for the club going forward is to move Oliver on. For us and him.

I think some supporters are still stuck in this vortex of the 21 finals campaign. As if we will still magically click and get back there, without realising that the game has changed, teams completely unravelled us not long after and our best players of that year are either coming to the end of their careers or players like Trac and Oliver have their own issues and there are absolutely no guarantees that either of those two will get back to their 21' form.

Add to this what I've already pointed out about our list overall having an inability to show composure consistently and it's clear as day that we cannot continue to hold on to all of these players.

And for the record, it's not that I think our players don't have any composure. It's that they don't display it anywhere near consistently enough. Which brings all the issues we see with inaccuracy, wasted inside 50's, missed targets, fumbles, etc.

At the end of this year, we have an opportunity to make some hard but necessary calls and god do I hope Goodwin has the balls to make them. I fear that he won't but I hope he does.

Edited June 11Jun 11 by Howard_Grimes

1 hour ago, Howard_Grimes said:

Unfortunately for the fans, something has to give.

It's a nice thought to be of the view that Trac and Clarry are getting back to their best. And even if they are, (I'm skeptical) their weaknesses as players too often highlight our issues as an entire side and too often it rears its head. Far too often. Not sure if I mentioned how often. TOO often.

Take nothing away from our 2021 finals series and run to that incredible campaign. It was magic.

But I think if supporters look through a broader lens at our issues from years 18-25, you'll see that not a lot has changed.

Whether it's inaccuracy at goal, wasted inside 50's, bombing long, missed kicks or handballs, the theme is always the same. And they're all symptoms of an issue that we've always had.

Composure.

Across the board, too many individuals that we've persisted with do not possess enough of this trait. And it's been our Achilles heel for coming on eight years. Granted, Godwin's game-plan and our list build didn't require a great deal of compusure which is why we still see the lingering effects in our current on-field performance.

If I'm going to be blunt, I don't think we can go into 26' with Viney, Trac and Oliver playing together. And I actually think the best move for the club going forward is to move Oliver on. For us and him.

I think some supporters are still stuck in this vortex of the 21 finals campaign. As if we will still magically click and get back there, without realising that the game has changed, teams completely unravelled us not long after and our best players of that year are either coming to the end of their careers or players like Trac and Oliver have their own issues and there are absolutely no guarantees that either of those two will get back to their 21' form.

Add to this what I've already pointed out about our list overall having an inability to show composure consistently and it's clear as day that we cannot continue to hold on to all of these players.

And for the record, it's not that I think our players don't have any composure. It's that they don't display it anywhere near consistently enough. Which brings all the issues we see with inaccuracy, wasted inside 50's, missed targets, fumbles, etc.

At the end of this year, we have an opportunity to make some hard but necessary calls and god do I hope Goodwin has the balls to make them. I fear that he won't but I hope he does.

This is my sentiment too.

From personal point of view I'd keep Oliver. If we were to choose between him and Petracca.

However, realistically Petracca has more upside and can play in different parts of the ground (specially forward).

So, from an utilitarian point of view, the choice is Petracca.

I don't think we necessarily need to choose between either or. These guys that have been programmed to play a certain way for so many seasons were never going to be able to change the way they played immediately.

We are starting to see better decision making from Clarry and Trac. We're yet to see them and Viney play together recently, but for Clarry and Trac, they've shown positive strides over the last 8 weeks.

Clarry's little dink kick out the front of the stoppage was genius. We smashed Collingwood in centre clearances and had a better inside 50 to score ratio than them. This is on our mids. Our forwards failed to convert the shots.

If Trac and Clarry continue to improve over the course of season we'll need both of them to win contested footy for the duration of their contracts.

1 hour ago, Howard_Grimes said:

Unfortunately for the fans, something has to give.

It's a nice thought to be of the view that Trac and Clarry are getting back to their best. And even if they are, (I'm skeptical) their weaknesses as players too often highlight our issues as an entire side and too often it rears its head. Far too often. Not sure if I mentioned how often. TOO often.

Take nothing away from our 2021 finals series and run to that incredible campaign. It was magic.

But I think if supporters look through a broader lens at our issues from years 18-25, you'll see that not a lot has changed.

Whether it's inaccuracy at goal, wasted inside 50's, bombing long, missed kicks or handballs, the theme is always the same. And they're all symptoms of an issue that we've always had.

Composure.

Across the board, too many individuals that we've persisted with do not possess enough of this trait. And it's been our Achilles heel for coming on eight years. Granted, Godwin's game-plan and our list build didn't require a great deal of compusure which is why we still see the lingering effects in our current on-field performance.

If I'm going to be blunt, I don't think we can go into 26' with Viney, Trac and Oliver playing together. And I actually think the best move for the club going forward is to move Oliver on. For us and him.

I think some supporters are still stuck in this vortex of the 21 finals campaign. As if we will still magically click and get back there, without realising that the game has changed, teams completely unravelled us not long after and our best players of that year are either coming to the end of their careers or players like Trac and Oliver have their own issues and there are absolutely no guarantees that either of those two will get back to their 21' form.

Add to this what I've already pointed out about our list overall having an inability to show composure consistently and it's clear as day that we cannot continue to hold on to all of these players.

And for the record, it's not that I think our players don't have any composure. It's that they don't display it anywhere near consistently enough. Which brings all the issues we see with inaccuracy, wasted inside 50's, missed targets, fumbles, etc.

At the end of this year, we have an opportunity to make some hard but necessary calls and god do I hope Goodwin has the balls to make them. I fear that he won't but I hope he does.

So you are ok to lose Oliver, get an early 20’s pick and compensate his salary to the tune of $600k per year until the end of 2030?

3 minutes ago, Oxdee said:

So you are ok to lose Oliver, get an early 20’s pick and compensate his salary to the tune of $600k per year until the end of 2030?

I am okay with it yes, but not just for the compensation pick and salary off the books in isolation.

I think there are a couple of potential positive roll-on effects from moving him on.

For one, I'm of the belief that we already function just fine and arguably BETTER without one of Oliver and Viney in the side. I think an argument can absolutely be made for that given what we've seen when either of them have missed games over the last few years. And no, I'm not just talking about last year when Oliver missed and was a liability at times on the field. Supporters are obsessed with individual stats and accolades and whilst Oliver's strengths when at his best are in the elite category, we've had a surplus of midfielders who dominate in this area too. Which is why it's not nearly as much of an issue as some think. This is especially so when all those players share the same weaknesses.

Two, I believe moving him on will breathe new life into the group, I think a weight will be lifted. I genuinely believe that and I know some of what he's dealing with thanks to some inside info and I think a move would benefit both parties.

Three, getting to your points about return picks and salary cap off the books. Like all trades, it's never about what you get straight back in return given the multitude of scenarios that are at a club's disposal through pick trading etc. But in short, I think it would allow us to further correct/balance the list either via trading up the draft or trading for a player.

Edited June 11Jun 11 by Howard_Grimes

I agree with you Steve in terms of midfield balance and Viney and Clarry in the same midfield. It's why I'd play Viney forward or as a tagger. And what happens if Jack retires early with concussion symptoms?

If Pickett is going to stay, someone on big coin may have to go…

*Delete*

Edited June 11Jun 11 by Howard_Grimes

26 minutes ago, rpfc said:

If Pickett is going to stay, someone on big coin may have to go…

not necessarily

may retires end of 2026, gawn and viney end of 2027 or 28. who knows about lever, salary cap is constantly going up and up...

30 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

I agree with you Steve in terms of midfield balance and Viney and Clarry in the same midfield. It's why I'd play Viney forward or as a tagger. And what happens if Jack retires early with concussion symptoms?

I just believe the thinking around our list needs to be more expansive. Which I know is hard on supporters forum!

What our footy could look like without one of those players. Not a world where we try and fit them all in. We've been doing that for years with a return of the same results. Inefficiency going forward, inaccuracy at goal, poor ball movement and just a general inability to remain composed when pressured.

Viney as a pressure forward just to make room Oliver is just shuffling deck chairs in my view. I think we just need to be honest now about where we're at as a side. Oliver doesn't scare opposition. Viney either. They know that whenever our bulls get the ball, all they have to do is apply a bit of heat and it will be turned over more often than not. It's been the same story for years. Viney butchering the ball in the forwardline vs the midfield is hardly an upgrade.

It's funny, Collingwood could still unravel us even when those mids of ours were at their contested best in 21. Which should tell people a lot. The game is about moments and making them count. Collingwood are ELITE in that regard. They have players who consistently make the right decisions and execute more often than not regardless of pressure. Regardless of losing contest. Regardless of losing total shots at goal. Regardless of losing the inside 50 count.

That is all it is. Simple.

So it comes down to list. Balance. Attribute diversity. And with that, hard decisions sometimes need to be made for the betterment, growth and evolution of the list. And we're at that stage in my view.

My concern is that Goody is so embedded in that group from a personal relationship standpoint that he will simply not be able to part ways with one of them. But I hope that is only my concern.

If I'm in charge, I'm making some bold but necessary calls at the end of the year. Clarry and Fritsch, you've been stars for us, helped win us that flag, but we're going to move you on.

And so a new chapter begins.

Oliver has to go. Its as simple as that. He is worse than he should be and the team is worse for having him in it.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by Pirlo

16 minutes ago, Pirlo said:

Oliver has to go. Its as simple as that. He is worse than he should be and the team is worse for having him in it.

Funnily enough, watching that game I’d rather keep Oliver than Petracca. Petracca seems broken to me since the awful injury - fumbles a lot, pulls out of contests that he may get hurt, rushes to give away the ball rather than taking the tackle. He still does great things bc he is so talented and hardworking but I think what it may well come down to who we can get the best return for. Which is probably Trac.

7 minutes ago, godees said:

Funnily enough, watching that game I’d rather keep Oliver than Petracca. Petracca seems broken to me since the awful injury - fumbles a lot, pulls out of contests that he may get hurt, rushes to give away the ball rather than taking the tackle. He still does great things bc he is so talented and hardworking but I think what it may well come down to who we can get the best return for. Which is probably Trac.

Yes, watching that game. But that was far and away Petracca's worst game of the season. He looks tired which makes sense given we're due the bye and he lost so much conditioning. Petracca is more explosive, a better kick, a goalscorer, and more versatile. Oliver can do one thing, and he doesn't do it well anymore.

2 minutes ago, Pirlo said:

Petracca is more explosive, a better kick

I think the kicking bit is debatable.

3 minutes ago, ANG13 said:

I think the kicking bit is debatable.

It’s really not.

That says more about Clarry, though.

This board has become incredibly anti-Trac, after what happened last year. I can understand it to an extent, but I also think Trac gets raked over the coals by many on here when he is actually doing pretty well (today he was poor but he’s is a focal point after almost every loss).

Poor old Clarry found some form as a defensive mid but can’t seem to pick up the offence side of his game. And now has to compete with Viney for centre bounce attendances.

You can’t just get rid of core players because they aren’t as good as they used to be. Who plays midfield in their place? Are Bailey Laurie and Trent Rivers going to get us out of the doldrums are they?

Keep both.

6 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

It’s really not.

That says more about Clarry, though.

This board has become incredibly anti-Trac, after what happened last year. I can understand it to an extent, but I also think Trac gets raked over the coals by many on here when he is actually doing pretty well (today he was poor but he’s is a focal point after almost every loss).

Poor old Clarry found some form as a defensive mid but can’t seem to pick up the offence side of his game. And now has to compete with Viney for centre bounce attendances.

Fair enough, I think they are equally bad at kicking. Both are a long way from being their best at the moment and it hurts.

19 minutes ago, Bang Bang Bang said:

You can’t just get rid of core players because they aren’t as good as they used to be. Who plays midfield in their place? Are Bailey Laurie and Trent Rivers going to get us out of the doldrums are they?

Keep both.

Langford, Lindsay, Windsor

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Langford, Lindsay, Windsor

And Viney will be there too. And probably One of Petraca or Oliver.

Can't see how we could transfer both of them at the same time.

14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Langford, Lindsay, Windsor

They are 3-4 years away at least.

3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

This is a good call out. We are very one dimensional in the stoppage and even though we win clearance they are not clean exits often with dump kicks that often get turnover.