14 hours ago, picket fence said:

U are kidding right, other than Fritsch's lucky 6 goals in the 21 Gf he has done little else

Settle down with the emotional delusions. Fritsch is about to enter the top 10 all time goal kickers for the club. He's a 5 time leading goal kicking. Have a bit of respect and take off the brown coloured glasses.

We could sure use some "lucky" goal kickers to kick us 50+ goals a season again.

We're now in rebuild mode and need new leaders to guide our kids like Langford, Windsor, Lindsey, Mcvee etc for a few years. Similar to bringing in Vince and Lewis, we need leaders who are solid players and won't cost much in a trade. We can't afford to trade away 2nd and 3rd round picks to upgrade into the first round and shoot ourselves in the foot again. Those are the picks where you build depth and leadership, which we sadly failed with the past few off-seasons.

8 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

We could sure use some "lucky" goal kickers to kick us 50+ goals a season again.

we sure could. But I very much doubt that will ever be Fritsch again.

42 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

Bergman is a good player, but fancy him earning more (potentially) than Kozzy. Chalk and cheese IMV.

I don’t know about that.

I love the chat about trade targets, but the truth is you can't talk about targets, unless you simultaneously discuss and resolve the bigger issue - WHY WOULD ANYONE GOOD COME TO US? We need to fill holes now/upcoming, but with talent. We don't have draft picks that will alone fix our issues.

Don't get me wrong, I love my club. But that love does not and cannot cloud realities. I am not on board with cultural issues and all that, but there are things we still have not resolved. Goalkicking/forward connection is a forever item for some reason, but I guess in theory we could fix that. One day.

My biggest issue is brand/reputation. We won the flag in 2021, with a potential dynasty ruined by the issues noted above, some bad luck (fight me, we would have won in 2023 if we kept one of Gus/Fritsch (fit) or Melk), poorly managed off-field/club drama and diabolical, frustrating inconsistency. For a while now, the team seems to pick when to turn up. And worse yet, that often happens in games. Why would anyone looking for success come to us? Our decline is evident. Flag, top 4, top 4, 15th, and a real prospect of bottom 4 (or worse). Unlike the Pies/Cats, we can no longer point to a bad year (2024) as an isolated event. The Cats and Pies returned to form and the top of the table after their blip. Today they sit at (clear) 1st and 4th. The difference with them, as it has always been, is brand. They come out and you know what you'll get. It's (partly/mostly) why the Cats have been at the top for sooooooo long! They don't accept the sorts of things we have accepted. Why can't we be like that?

Until we sort that out, we will continue to get some of the NQRs we have traded for in recent years, and instead attract guys who likely look the other way right now.

We have to acknowledge and rectify the above before we can seriously consider (top end) trade targets.

6 minutes ago, Red But Mostly Blue said:

I love the chat about trade targets, but the truth is you can't talk about targets, unless you simultaneously discuss and resolve the bigger issue - WHY WOULD ANYONE GOOD COME TO US? We need to fill holes now/upcoming, but with talent. We don't have draft picks that will alone fix our issues.

Don't get me wrong, I love my club. But that love does not and cannot cloud realities. I am not on board with cultural issues and all that, but there are things we still have not resolved. Goalkicking/forward connection is a forever item for some reason, but I guess in theory we could fix that. One day.

My biggest issue is brand/reputation. We won the flag in 2021, with a potential dynasty ruined by the issues noted above, some bad luck (fight me, we would have won in 2023 if we kept one of Gus/Fritsch (fit) or Melk), poorly managed off-field/club drama and diabolical, frustrating inconsistency. For a while now, the team seems to pick when to turn up. And worse yet, that often happens in games. Why would anyone looking for success come to us? Our decline is evident. Flag, top 4, top 4, 15th, and a real prospect of bottom 4 (or worse). Unlike the Pies/Cats, we can no longer point to a bad year (2024) as an isolated event. The Cats and Pies returned to form and the top of the table after their blip. Today they sit at (clear) 1st and 4th. The difference with them, as it has always been, is brand. They come out and you know what you'll get. It's (partly/mostly) why the Cats have been at the top for sooooooo long! They don't accept the sorts of things we have accepted. Why can't we be like that?

Until we sort that out, we will continue to get some of the NQRs we have traded for in recent years, and instead attract guys who likely look the other way right now.

We have to acknowledge and rectify the above before we can seriously consider (top end) trade targets.

Look there are definitely some things we need to fix at the club, but also at the end of the day in terms of Trade Targets and Free Agency - we're not a destination club and I'm not sure if we ever will be in my lifetime. There are just some clubs in the league that don't have the drawing power of some of the larger clubs. We end up having to pay overs for certain players or hope none of the big boys are circling. I know this is a little defeatist but i think it's realistic.

1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

need new leaders to guide our kids like Langford, Windsor, Lindsey, Mcvee etc for a few years. Similar to bringing in Vince and Lewis

Funnily enough we have a few Premiership players on the list who are good leaders.

Just don't need to trade them out.

We don't need to bring in old players from other clubs now unless Pendles felt like an extra year.

The biggest drawback to a target is Goody as coach. All of the targets have played against Goody game plan. And it’s a style you would only play for money, not enjoyment. Then there is training facility. After all this time an open paddock exposed to one of the busiest roads in Australia. Then the playing list. I hated playing with selfish players like Fritta so there go your forwards. I hated midfielders who got a lot of the ball but couldn’t kick getting all the accolades, and I would not ever put up with May abusing me for every error I make as a back prospect.

That’s without starting on the crowds we draw and no identity to push your brand.

1 hour ago, 48 Year Now said:

The biggest drawback to a target is Goody as coach. All of the targets have played against Goody game plan. And it’s a style you would only play for money, not enjoyment. Then there is training facility. After all this time an open paddock exposed to one of the busiest roads in Australia. Then the playing list. I hated playing with selfish players like Fritta so there go your forwards. I hated midfielders who got a lot of the ball but couldn’t kick getting all the accolades, and I would not ever put up with May abusing me for every error I make as a back prospect.

That’s without starting on the crowds we draw and no identity to push your brand.

I think this is actually changing though. We are now (believe it or not) one of the fastest ball movement sides. We've had a huge game plan overhaul and it's not there yet... but it is so much better than the last couple of years. Had we kicked straight the narrative would be different. I know goal kicking has been a constant issue - but I think previously that was a lot to do with our slow down the line play and mobing it in... we do a lot less of that now.

Things can turn quickly. When we played Hawthorn early last year, they looked an absolute rabble. By the end of the year they were the hollywood hawks.

Something I just read on ‘Zero Hanger’. Hope no issues in quoting it, if so, apologies.

The headline target the Demons have been tied to is ex-Melbourne tall and premiership player Luke Jackson, who is said to be potentially open to a return to the red and blue.

Jackson left the Demons at the end of 2022 after a successful spell with the Demons and could return to the club if he were to seek a move back to Victoria for personal reasons.

Hawthorn onballer James Worpel, who is a restricted free agent, is said to have an interested suitor in Melbourne, who has also been tied to Power tall forward Ollie Lord.

Lord would add to an inconsistent Demons forward line - an area the club is keen to bolster, having also been tied to Lions youngster Logan Morrisbefore he re-signed.

GWS medium-sized forward Callum Brown is another attacker linked to the Demons, with his sharp set shot kicking a standout that would assist Simon Goodwin's front half plans. 

Edited July 1Jul 1 by SadDee

19 minutes ago, deelusions from afar said:

I think this is actually changing though. We are now (believe it or not) one of the fastest ball movement sides. We've had a huge game plan overhaul and it's not there yet... but it is so much better than the last couple of years. Had we kicked straight the narrative would be different. I know goal kicking has been a constant issue - but I think previously that was a lot to do with our slow down the line play and mobing it in... we do a lot less of that now.

Things can turn quickly. When we played Hawthorn early last year, they looked an absolute rabble. By the end of the year they were the hollywood hawks.

Don’t wish to be argumentative but I don’t buy the stats that we are fast moving in any way. And for every side that turns it around five or six don’t.

I’ve responded to trade targets and you can’t say to a trade target we will turn it around

2 hours ago, roy11 said:

Look there are definitely some things we need to fix at the club, but also at the end of the day in terms of Trade Targets and Free Agency - we're not a destination club and I'm not sure if we ever will be in my lifetime. There are just some clubs in the league that don't have the drawing power of some of the larger clubs. We end up having to pay overs for certain players or hope none of the big boys are circling. I know this is a little defeatist but i think it's realistic.

Nah you are on the money.

The sad thing is that after so many years in the doldrums, we clawed our way out irrelevance, back into the relevance sphere again. We were finally talked about, lauded at times, and plastered on the papers for things that never make it there for lesser teams. To get there we had to pay overs to draw guys like Lever and May into the fold, but I think we may have squandered all of that, and while not as bad as the Neeld/Bailey era obviously, we will have to return to overs to entice anyone willing to take the risk of playing in a consistent, successful footy team. Again, teams like the Cats and Pies don't need t do that, because players are drawn to success and are willing to forego a little money to win.

4 minutes ago, Red But Mostly Blue said:

Nah you are on the money.

The sad thing is that after so many years in the doldrums, we clawed our way out irrelevance, back into the relevance sphere again. We were finally talked about, lauded at times, and plastered on the papers for things that never make it there for lesser teams. To get there we had to pay overs to draw guys like Lever and May into the fold, but I think we may have squandered all of that, and while not as bad as the Neeld/Bailey era obviously, we will have to return to overs to entice anyone willing to take the risk of playing in a consistent, successful footy team. Again, teams like the Cats and Pies don't need t do that, because players are drawn to success and are willing to forego a little money to win.

Pies and Cats will have their day.

When Danger / Cameron / Stewart retire over the next 1-2 years they will fall away quite drastically IMO. I know we said this with Selwood & Hawkins

Pies will be sooner than you think. The likes of Pendles, Sidebottom, Mihochek, Howe, Moore will not be there in 1-2 years time and no amount of recruitment / trade will be able to cover that amount of experience.

It is frustrating that we couldn't capitalise on being a top team like other clubs have. We were a premiership team in 2021, and yet failed to land any quality players as a result. Other clubs like Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Brisbane etc all managed to sustain their successful periods and be destination clubs. It sucks seeing all the decent players linked to other clubs, while we get the dregs or overpay to keep the decent ones we have.

It's actually damning how poor our list management has been since the premiership. Since end of 2021 as reigning premiers, we traded in:
Grundy
Schache
Hunter
Fullarton
McAdam
Billings
Sharp

Instead of becoming a destination club where players wanted to come and experience success, we got the above list. Embarrassing. We're now in the position we were in the mid 2010s where we need to build around top draftees again, but our overused strategy of trading up each year has diminished the quality of the top enders we've drafted. We built a premiership around gun midfielders taken high in the draft with Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw. We're now robbing ourselves of being able to repeat that, and we don't have the trade currency to bring it in without trading Petracca or Oliver and paying some of their salary.

1 hour ago, SadDee said:

Hawthorn onballer James Worpel, who is a restricted free agent, is said to have an interested suitor in Melbourne

Why?

10 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

Pies and Cats will have their day.

When Danger / Cameron / Stewart retire over the next 1-2 years they will fall away quite drastically IMO. I know we said this with Selwood & Hawkins

Pies will be sooner than you think. The likes of Pendles, Sidebottom, Mihochek, Howe, Moore will not be there in 1-2 years time and no amount of recruitment / trade will be able to cover that amount of experience.

I hope so, and while I kind of agree with the Pies - they still manage to draw big players because it's a destination club with a big, rabbid, ugly fanbase, big crowds etc. We're not a destination club and obviously don't draw big crowds.

But the Cats, I am not so sure. It's not an original thought or record, but I think they may have cracked the code. Their results over the last 20 years is crazy. I don't even think the loss of those 3 will make that big a dent because they will find replacements in the next 1-2 years, and will have no trouble doing so because the guys coming in know they're going to play at least a prelim, and get a farm etc.

Since 2004, the Cats have finished: 4, 6, 10, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 6, 2, 3, 10, 2, 2, 8, 1, 4, 3, 12, 1, 3 = 4 flags/2 runners up (the only other match during this period is the Tigers with 3 flags and the Hawks with 4 flags, but they missed finals 13 and 9 times, respectively!). The Cats have missed finals 3 times in 21 years! There are guys on the list who were not even born when they started this run. That's CRAZY. Every time their demise has been called, they have come back.

Anyway, the point of all that is not to gloat about the Cats' record, because I can't stand them, but you have to admire their ability to climb out of their period of irrelevance and actually stay there, probably greater than any other modern team in history. And I think it comes down to standards, expectations and turning up week in, week out.

We're not a big crowd destination club, so the only way to draw big names is to rebuild a culture of winning, and knowing what team will turn up every week. Every quarter of every game. The return will be cyclical - we'll win more games, which will draw better names to the club, which will mean we can stay at the top for longer, and win more games/flags. And, hell, even draw the 70/80k crowds we want.

We need to be honest with ourselves before we can make the necessary changes.

FWIW, I am not potting the players. I don't think they're not trying or training or whatever, I think the issue goes further inside the heads of players/expectations of players. I am not sure the standards and expectations are understood or bought into by everyone all the time. I love the boys and this club, and think we have some solid pieces for a good future, which is why it is so important to correct what is happening and set expectations so we don't squander that talent. We just signed Koz for a million years. Would be good for him to be joined by new/developing talent to win games and maybe a flag or two.

Before we won the premiership we had everyone coming to us so destination club theory is a myth.

Certainly wouldn't be taking advice from all these negative people here. Pies and Macrae showed how a turn around can be done.

We now have the chance to be the next Pies or Cats if the club strives for that kind of outcome.

Both those clubs prioritise players over picks. We obviously need a better recruitment team for mature talent though.

1 hour ago, Red But Mostly Blue said:

I hope so, and while I kind of agree with the Pies - they still manage to draw big players because it's a destination club with a big, rabbid, ugly fanbase, big crowds etc. We're not a destination club and obviously don't draw big crowds.

But the Cats, I am not so sure. It's not an original thought or record, but I think they may have cracked the code. Their results over the last 20 years is crazy. I don't even think the loss of those 3 will make that big a dent because they will find replacements in the next 1-2 years, and will have no trouble doing so because the guys coming in know they're going to play at least a prelim, and get a farm etc.

Since 2004, the Cats have finished: 4, 6, 10, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 6, 2, 3, 10, 2, 2, 8, 1, 4, 3, 12, 1, 3 = 4 flags/2 runners up (the only other match during this period is the Tigers with 3 flags and the Hawks with 4 flags, but they missed finals 13 and 9 times, respectively!). The Cats have missed finals 3 times in 21 years! There are guys on the list who were not even born when they started this run. That's CRAZY. Every time their demise has been called, they have come back.

Anyway, the point of all that is not to gloat about the Cats' record, because I can't stand them, but you have to admire their ability to climb out of their period of irrelevance and actually stay there, probably greater than any other modern team in history. And I think it comes down to standards, expectations and turning up week in, week out.

We're not a big crowd destination club, so the only way to draw big names is to rebuild a culture of winning, and knowing what team will turn up every week. Every quarter of every game. The return will be cyclical - we'll win more games, which will draw better names to the club, which will mean we can stay at the top for longer, and win more games/flags. And, hell, even draw the 70/80k crowds we want.

We need to be honest with ourselves before we can make the necessary changes.

FWIW, I am not potting the players. I don't think they're not trying or training or whatever, I think the issue goes further inside the heads of players/expectations of players. I am not sure the standards and expectations are understood or bought into by everyone all the time. I love the boys and this club, and think we have some solid pieces for a good future, which is why it is so important to correct what is happening and set expectations so we don't squander that talent. We just signed Koz for a million years. Would be good for him to be joined by new/developing talent to win games and maybe a flag or two.

Just on the Cats its hard not to disagree with you, but they had a number of key players and recruits which will be really difficult to replicate moving forward.

1. Dangerfield and Cameron - both are generational players. Smith and Holmes will not even get close to their legacy. Who replaces them in the forward line?

2. S.Neale looks good, but if their 1&2 is Neale and Oliver Henry they will struggle with their game plan. Cameron probably plays for another 1-2 years but he already looks quite proppy with those guitar string hammies.

3. Mitch Duncan 34 will also retire this year and C.Guthrie is always injured. T.Bruhn has question marks on him as well.

4. Even Blicavs and who i failed to mention is an athletic freak - he is generally Scott's joker card in terms of matchups and aerobic capacity and chop out ruck. He maynot be a superstar, but is the ultimate swingman.

I do think their downfall is coming in the next 2-3 years. Is it going to be years and years in irrelevance. Probably not, but they will miss finals for consecutive years before the end of this decade. Write it stone.

Pies will have one last shot this year. They'll be there again next year, but will not threaten as GCS, Doggies, Lions and Adelaide will enter their prime (and will remain the main challengers for the next 3-4 years).

5 hours ago, 48 Year Now said:

Don’t wish to be argumentative but I don’t buy the stats that we are fast moving in any way.

Of course you don't. Because that's how confirmation bias works.

1 hour ago, kurtneverdied said:

Pies and Macrae showed how a turn around can be done.

Just ridiculous, but keeps on coming up here.

Pies were in the finals for 3 out of the preceding 4 years to McRae's arrival, and had been in the top 4 for 2 of those, including grand finalists in 2018. McRae took over basically the same list with the addition of (checks notes) 2 x Daicos.

Though once again, this ignores all the occasions when teams have changed coaches and either continued to go backwards, or where improvement has been minimal. And that's by the far the majority of cases.

Not saying McRae isn't a good coach, but most clubs in the league have "good" coaches, and it's not helping. A solid list where you add a star or two on the other hand ...

27 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Of course you don't. Because that's how confirmation bias works.

Bit over my head, I came down in the last shower. So to be clear , do you think we are a fast moving ball movement team?

51 minutes ago, 48 Year Now said:

Bit over my head, I came down in the last shower. So to be clear , do you think we are a fast moving ball movement team?

It’s a way of saying you see what you want to see things due to your own bias or ideas. On Demonland, it is used as tool to dismiss your beliefs or argument.

Many on here use isolated stats to ague their point to confirm their confirmation bias. This is seen as fact and not an interpretation of fact, or confirmation bias.

59 minutes ago, 48 Year Now said:

Bit over my head, I came down in the last shower. So to be clear , do you think we are a fast moving ball movement team?

We moving the ball forward quicker than most teams. In fact we are the second fastest to move the ball forward.

Is this effective? Nope. Do we have poor skills kicking for goal? Yes.

If I was to interpret fast ball movement, it would mean through the sticks, not through the oval.

As I said we are ineffective.

1 hour ago, bing181 said:

Just ridiculous, but keeps on coming up here.

Pies were in the finals for 3 out of the preceding 4 years to McRae's arrival, and had been in the top 4 for 2 of those, including grand finalists in 2018. McRae took over basically the same list with the addition of (checks notes) 2 x Daicos.

Though once again, this ignores all the occasions when teams have changed coaches and either continued to go backwards, or where improvement has been minimal. And that's by the far the majority of cases.

Not saying McRae isn't a good coach, but most clubs in the league have "good" coaches, and it's not helping. A solid list where you add a star or two on the other hand ...

If I’m reading the internet correctly, at the end of 2021 Collingwood brought in Lipinski and N Daicos, plus a bunch of others who haven’t achieved much.

Which would mean that 21 of the 23 players who took them to a 1-point prelim loss in 2022 were on their list in Buckley’s final season, in which they finished bottom 2.

So McRae largely got them bouncing back straight away without major list changes. Obviously N Daicos makes a huge difference but he didn’t, in 2022, change them from a bottom 2 side to a top 4 side.

I don’t understand your constant “but this ignores the countless times new coaches have failed to change a club’s fortunes”. Is anyone saying a change of coach is guaranteed to make us better? Aside from maybe some fringe posters, I doubt it. But you tend to come across as “a change in coach is guaranteed to do nothing without major list changes”, which is equally wrong. Collingwood in 2021-22 is an example.

13 minutes ago, Nietaphart said:

We moving the ball forward quicker than most teams. In fact we are the second fastest to move the ball forward.

Is this effective? Nope. Do we have poor skills kicking for goal? Yes.

If I was to interpret fast ball movement, it would mean through the sticks, not through the oval.

As I said we are ineffective.

Thx for humouring me. I know what confirmation bias is but didn’t expect it here. After all we are a struggling team and we have ladder results as the ultimate judge when we criticise this or that.

very much in the same way you can’t say we move the ball quickly if the result is not a goal. It is a point, out of bounds or a rebound. We can all name great sides that moved the ball fast from the past, but of course they had efficiency.

Closer to home look at our second half of 21 flag.