I agree with all. Stats lie and clangers is far too general. I have been watching since the mid 70's and its a touch sacrilege to Robbie but those 2 are  the best we have had. No doubt.

 

1, Oliver / Petracca

2, Petracca / Oliver

3. Flower

4.Max

5. Lyon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, sue said:

I was in need of a good laugh and reading this I got it:

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_rankings?year=2021&rt=LA&st=CG

 

That top 20 is the who's who of the current AFL listed players.

More opportunities probably means more chances to screw it up.

Long may Trac and Clarry feature at the top.

5 minutes ago, Wizard of Koz said:

I agree with all. Stats lie and clangers is far too general. I have been watching since the mid 70's and its a touch sacrilege to Robbie but those 2 are  the best we have had. No doubt.

 

1, Oliver / Petracca

2, Petracca / Oliver

3. Flower

4.Max

5. Lyon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jakovich could have been one of the greatest players to ever play the game without the back injury.

My God we have had some terrible luck during that awful 57 years.

13 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Jakovich could have been one of the greatest players to ever play the game without the back injury.

My God we have had some terrible luck during that awful 57 years.

Yep he was great. Reality is he probably would have been worked out by oppo coaches with flooding etc. And his fitness must be part of the whole player package, similar to skills, decision making, courage, selfishness etc etc. 

Glenn Lovett, Stinga, Schwarz , they were all fantastic and could have been anything. But injuries. Mid 90s had more than most though. Add Prymke, Sean Charles, Lyon often, to the 3 above and its pretty sad. But now that is history and Hawthorn can have years like that rammed down their throat for the next 50. The baton has been changed hands.

39 minutes ago, dworship said:

A couple of things in this; I've mentioned this before but it irked me for a long time that the kicker wouldn't/ couldn't deliver the ball to advantage. Saying that it's a cardinal sin for a forward to play from behind is a somewhat antiquated view. You sometimes hear dinosaurs like BT say "he's got a cheapy over the back" but if Cozzy is caught behind 20m from goal and the kicker has a 30 m kick to land it on his head and a 25m kick to hit him up if he was on a lead where do you think the ball should be delivered? In the past, in the scenario given it would have been on the chest of a defender. One of the things I have so often seen Spargo do and now have seen Bowey do is to kick to "advantage". Sometimes that also means where the boundary line is your friend (without making it an "insufficient attempt" free).

So in the scenario above; if Trac kicks the ball 50m over Cozzies and the defenders head and it lands 4m behind Coz does that constitute a clanger? Is Coz to be criticised for not playing in front? I think we all know the outcome!

Another way to look at it is if the forward is behind the defender the player delivering the ball has a much more difficult assignment to find his man ... he'd need to deliver with pinpoint accuracy (over the top)

Plus, he may not even be able to see the target properly apart from an occasional waving hand (if the forward is caught out playing from behind)

At ground level, spacial awareness and the timing of the length of the kick is a lot harder than it looks

Where as if the kicker just kicks it out in front of a leading player or to a player playing in front, it's a much easier kick.  Or kick it into space for a player to run on to it

Footy hasn't changed that much where the basics still don't need to be adhered to. 

And if all 5 or 6 forwards continually play in front that would be a midfielders dream

Inside 50 conversion is highly dependant on hitting up targets time after time.  Lose possession and it's a scoring opportunity missed

I haven't checked but I'm imagining that our inside 50 conversion rate during the finals must have been very good

T-Mac & Brown were very good at presenting during the finals and the 3 little fellas played a big part too

And Fritsch played the 3rd forwards role to a nicety.  Often floating in from the side or putting his body on the line playing in front.  Gawn & LJ the same

A lot to like from a forward line that isn't exactly star-studded

 

*I'm assuming you and most others know most of the above but others mightn't

 

Sorry to add to the groupthink, but they get the ball in contested situations AND try to do something with it. That is a recipe for high Clanger numbers and flags.

And then there's the advantage the forward can have with regards to free kicks (playing in front) Arms chopped, push in the back, high contact etc etc

Awfully difficult to win a free kick playing from behind.  Not a good percentage play

And if a defender is allowed the front position they can kill the play (or the forward foray)

They can double fist or punch the ball away towards the boundary line or simply mark the ball

A good forward knows how to feed the front & centre blokes too.  If he can't mark it, his hands can dictate where the ball might end up.  But that's reserved for the class forward

Playing from behind, all that is a much harder assignment.  Clangers will eventuate but again, who's fault?

The thing I like about this list is Luke Dunstan is at 26. Second Saint on the list behind Brad Couch. I heard it said Ratten didn't like Dunstans turn-overs and the big knock on him was his disposal, but considering the company he is in on that list he is a pretty good ball winner and fits in well with our territory gained football. Looks like he is a really good pick up.

4 hours ago, Wizard of Koz said:

I agree with all. Stats lie and clangers is far too general. I have been watching since the mid 70's and its a touch sacrilege to Robbie but those 2 are  the best we have had. No doubt.

 

1, Oliver / Petracca

2, Petracca / Oliver

3. Flower

4.Max

5. Lyon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Neuter no 5 then Gaz 

Swarta might have been the best if all if not injured !! 

4 hours ago, 58er said:

Neuter no 5

Can't see him agreeing to that.

The quality of delivery into the forward line will, more often than not, depend on how well the receiver makes position to receive.

Think Harmes to Fritsch - perfect lead in front into space and perfect kick to advantage. Think also the next play - Tracca to a contest where Fritsch was behind but, if not for Maxie's hand, Fritsch would have taken a perfect hanger from behind.

In both scenarios, the delivery was spot on but the second might have been called a clanger.

GO DEES

10 hours ago, Wizard of Koz said:

1, Oliver / Petracca

2, Petracca / Oliver

3. Flower

4.Max

5. Lyon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is sacrilege. Robbie can never be displaced from 1.

10 hours ago, Macca said:

*I'm assuming you and most others know most of the above but others mightn't

 

🙋‍♀️ That’d be me. Thank you for such a well-written explanation. 🙂

6 hours ago, 58er said:

Neuter no 5

Wow. no father son

10 hours ago, Macca said:

And then there's the advantage the forward can have with regards to free kicks (playing in front) Arms chopped, push in the back, high contact etc etc

Awfully difficult to win a free kick playing from behind.  Not a good percentage play

And if a defender is allowed the front position they can kill the play (or the forward foray)

They can double fist or punch the ball away towards the boundary line or simply mark the ball

A good forward knows how to feed the front & centre blokes too.  If he can't mark it, his hands can dictate where the ball might end up.  But that's reserved for the class forward

Playing from behind, all that is a much harder assignment.  Clangers will eventuate but again, who's fault?

Maybe the Dogs defence needs to read this.  3 of Frittas 6 goals came from playing behind.

(Now putting on my original K Tel Tin Foil Hat, if one considers the space time continuum, does the classification of playing from behind be contingent on which way you are running?  Anyway dogs were swallowed in a black hole).

Fwd line needs space to run into,  and delivery needs to be to your advantage.

10 hours ago, Macca said:

And then there's the advantage the forward can have with regards to free kicks (playing in front) Arms chopped, push in the back, high contact etc etc

Awfully difficult to win a free kick playing from behind.  Not a good percentage play

And if a defender is allowed the front position they can kill the play (or the forward foray)

They can double fist or punch the ball away towards the boundary line or simply mark the ball

A good forward knows how to feed the front & centre blokes too.  If he can't mark it, his hands can dictate where the ball might end up.  But that's reserved for the class forward

Playing from behind, all that is a much harder assignment.  Clangers will eventuate but again, who's fault?

I don’t really agree with this. Forwards often have to come up the ground now because otherwise the opposition will set up a wall at CHB. It’s all hands on deck to get that contest halved if high kicks come in before worrying about finding an inside 50. Especially with so many teams aggressively zoning and gun intercept players.

Then there’s often space created inside 50 for the forwards to lead back in to. And space is really the aim of the game. Find those one on ones with room for a forward to lead.

We got much better this year at kicking out to space to a forward leading back who can hook their lead or putting air under the kick so the forward can balance up. 

A signature Fritsch move is him leading back towards goal. And Ben Brown would often be pushing back, body a defender who lost contact with him and then come forward to mark. In previous years we’ve expected Weid to move like Fritsch which hasn’t worked and played too fast for him. Fritsch excels at that quick back lead, and Brown excels at pushing back then out reaching a scrambling opponent.

Front on contact and arm chop frees are just as likely in these situations.

We certainly improved on slower plays that got to half forward and required a hard lead at the ball carrier, but that’s really plan B. Plan A for scoring is to score when the ball is in quick transition. 

1 hour ago, tiers said:

The quality of delivery into the forward line will, more often than not, depend on how well the receiver makes position to receive.

Think Harmes to Fritsch - perfect lead in front into space and perfect kick to advantage. Think also the next play - Tracca to a contest where Fritsch was behind but, if not for Maxie's hand, Fritsch would have taken a perfect hanger from behind.

In both scenarios, the delivery was spot on but the second might have been called a clanger.

GO DEES

So with the 2nd incident (which I can't recall) could the scenario have been different if Fritsch has taken the front position and then Gawn (thinking on his feet) then protects the marking attempt by Fritsch?

The antiquated thinking that playing in front has been described as is people getting it wrong

The coaches want their players playing in front (as they always have) and the 'Hanger' has become antiquated

30 minutes ago, Jontee said:

Maybe the Dogs defence needs to read this.  3 of Frittas 6 goals came from playing behind.

(Now putting on my original K Tel Tin Foil Hat, if one considers the space time continuum, does the classification of playing from behind be contingent on which way you are running?  Anyway dogs were swallowed in a black hole).

Fwd line needs space to run into,  and delivery needs to be to your advantage.

Yeah, I'm talking about playing the game in a basic sense ... not every incident is the same and playing from behind can sometimes be advantageous.  Luck plays a part and sometimes defenders can be outpositioned if they are in front

But in a general sense, the player playing in front nearly always has an advantage as long as the ball is out in front of him or delivered correctly

16 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don’t really agree with this. Forwards often have to come up the ground now because otherwise the opposition will set up a wall at CHB. It’s all hands on deck to get that contest halved if high kicks come in before worrying about finding an inside 50. Especially with so many teams aggressively zoning and gun intercept players.

Then there’s often space created inside 50 for the forwards to lead back in to. And space is really the aim of the game. Find those one on ones with room for a forward to lead.

We got much better this year at kicking out to space to a forward leading back who can hook their lead or putting air under the kick so the forward can balance up. 

A signature Fritsch move is him leading back towards goal. And Ben Brown would often be pushing back, body a defender who lost contact with him and then come forward to mark. In previous years we’ve expected Weid to move like Fritsch which hasn’t worked and played too fast for him. Fritsch excels at that quick back lead, and Brown excels at pushing back then out reaching a scrambling opponent.

Front on contact and arm chop frees are just as likely in these situations.

We certainly improved on slower plays that got to half forward and required a hard lead at the ball carrier, but that’s really plan B. Plan A for scoring is to score when the ball is in quick transition. 

Ok, what about the often 100 - 200+ hit up passes we see in most games where the player in front takes an easy mark?  The uncontested mark (which gains ground)

Forwards do that as well (or at least they attempt to do it)

Playing in front doesn't get talked about a lot but believe me, every coach at any level will place a heavy emphasis on this basic of the sport

Ask anyone who has ever played or coached for a good length of time

Tell you what I'm going to do ... In certain games this year I'm going to note down what actually happens with our inside 50 forward forays. A detailed analysis (when I've got time) ... others might want to do the same exercise and we can compare notes

The results might surprise people but I've already got a good idea what the results might be

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

So with the 2nd incident (which I can't recall) could the scenario have been different if Fritsch has taken the front position and then Gawn (thinking on his feet) then protects the marking attempt by Fritsch?

 

Your suggested scenario could never have happened. Fritsch's opponent leaves him alone near the goal square and heads out to where he thinks the next contest might happen. Fritsch wasn't playing behind, his opponent left him alone, lost contact and paid the price.

A good example of the 'hanger' in the forward line being an antiquated practice is Jeremy Howe

20 or 30 years ago he could have been a 80+ a year goalkicker ... but not these days.  Defenders are too smart and with the crowded forward lines & zoning means the high flyer from behind is virtually obsolete

The percentage play is to get to the front position ... marking becomes easier, the front and centre little blokes have more of a chance with a spilled bsll and as previously mentioned, the free kick comes into play

22 minutes ago, tiers said:

Your suggested scenario could never have happened. Fritsch's opponent leaves him alone near the goal square and heads out to where he thinks the next contest might happen. Fritsch wasn't playing behind, his opponent left him alone, lost contact and paid the price.

As I said, I can't recall seeing the incident but again, one of our biggest issues from 2006 onwards (apart of 2018 & 2021) was our lforwards not presenting well enough

Now, it does take skill to win the front position (and a lot of courage) so it is easier said than done.  Playing in front is a talent

Edited January 25, 20223 yr by Macca

And the thrust of my argument centres around clean clearances out of the middle (stoppage situations included - in the midfield)

If we are the best in that area ( from an overall perspective) we definitely need our forwards presenting for an easy score to eventuate

So we can't afford to lose that advantage

e.g. From a centre bounce down Gawn taps to Viney who handballs to Oliver or Petracca who delivers the ball to a leading forward (in the corridor)

A score results

Rinse & repeat

Edited January 25, 20223 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, Jontee said:

Wow. no father son

Neiter not ......

14 hours ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

It's the worst stat in football.

The best players are always well represented, especially mids at the coalface.

Perhaps it is now.

This time last year the worst stat in football was number of years since last premiership.