32 minutes ago, deanox said:

He is already top 5 midfielders in the comp and arguably our best player of the last 30 years. Coaching isnt holding him back.

You are jumping the gun a bit. Arrogant view to think he cannt improve with better coaching. He will be top five when he dominates a few finals.

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Yep, Bigfooty nuffies reporting this years first and next years first for Oliver and a second rounder (just a Cartlon supporters suggestion though I believe).

It's one thing nuffies on BF reporting it, but posters here regurgitating BF rumours puts them in the same basket 

21 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

It's one thing nuffies on BF reporting it, but posters here regurgitating BF rumours puts them in the same basket 

I’m not even on BF and my rumour does not come from there but since you seem to know so much then enlighten us or maybe keep your insults to yourself when you know f... all 

21 hours ago, Billy said:

Cripps is a poor mans Clayton Oliver 

...with just a big difference in that he doesn't kiss umpires arkss 

6 hours ago, Demons11 said:

I’m not even on BF and my rumour does not come from there but since you seem to know so much then enlighten us or maybe keep your insults to yourself when you know f... all 

Chin up sunshine, oldest trick in the agents book.  Oliver is going nowhere but you keep believing 

8 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

You are jumping the gun a bit. Arrogant view to think he cannt improve with better coaching. He will be top five when he dominates a few finals.

Dominating finals isnt a requirement, because not all players play finals.

He has only played 5 seasons since being drafted.

In each of the last 4 years, he has had more disposals than any othe MFC player has ever had in the history of the game.

He has had the 1st, 4th, 3rd and 3rd most contested possessions in the comp in the last 4 years. 

He has had the 6th, 9th, 3rd, and 10th most disposals in the comp in the last 4 years.

He has had the 7th, 13th, 3rd and 8th most effective disposals in the comp in the last 4 years. 

He has had the 5th, 7th, 3rd, and 6th most tackles in the comp in the last 4 years.

He has had the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 7th most clearances in the comp in the last 4 years.

 

These are the stats that are relevant to midfielders. He is comfortably in the best 5 midfielders in the competition.

It would be arrogant if he said he couldn't get better full stop. He hasn't said that. And neither did I.

He doesn't need "better coaching" to get there. It is ridiculous of you to claim he doesnt have good coaching, when he has been able to be able to develop this well.

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by deanox

4 hours ago, deanox said:

Dominating finals isnt a requirement, because not all players play finals.

He has only played 5 seasons since being drafted.

In each of the last 4 years, he has had more disposals than any othe MFC player has ever had in the history of the game.

He has had the 1st, 4th, 3rd and 3rd most contested possessions in the comp in the last 4 years. 

He has had the 6th, 9th, 3rd, and 10th most disposals in the comp in the last 4 years.

He has had the 7th, 13th, 3rd and 8th most effective disposals in the comp in the last 4 years. 

He has had the 5th, 7th, 3rd, and 6th most tackles in the comp in the last 4 years.

He has had the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 7th most clearances in the comp in the last 4 years.

 

These are the stats that are relevant to midfielders. He is comfortably in the best 5 midfielders in the competition.

It would be arrogant if he said he couldn't get better full stop. He hasn't said that. And neither did I.

He doesn't need "better coaching" to get there. It is ridiculous of you to claim he doesnt have good coaching, when he has been able to be able to develop this well.

Stand by what I say. And to break it down a little more for you as you like stat.

In the past four year he has finished outside the top 100 players for kicks three times and once finished 43. He has had a lot of handballs  but has received a  criticism for his dinky hanballing to other players from supporters and footy judges, especially this year. And remember he has been at the foot of the best tap ruckman all that time. Like all 23 year olds he requires good coaching to fully develop his game. That requires someone with skill, experience and good communication to deliver instuction and teaching on all aspects of his game. If you take this as a criticism you are reading this the wrong way. He, like others at MFC needs a big year next year as his result in the Best and Fairest testifies. You cannot be top five midfielder if you finish 6th in your Clubm who have finished 9th in their Best and Fairest.

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by Half forward flank

A must read for aspiring elite midfielders:  Lachie Neale's:  inside-the-mind-of-the-afl-s-best

This year, "I worked really hard on driving with my legs, kicking the ball a lot more and trying to get centre forward to set up a few more attacking plays for us, rather than just trying to accumulate the footy. I've worked really hard to change that and add little bits and pieces this year and it's come to fruition a bit this year and, if I kicked straighter this year, I'd have a few more goals (he's kicked 11.13)."

"There's been patches throughout this season where I haven't probably played at my best, so I can become even more consistent and try to deliver more week in and week out. I've tried to add a little bit in terms of when I get attention and release our players and free up a few of our players, which I haven't done so well in the past.

"It might not show in disposals and clearances and key stats, but trying to influence the game in other ways as well going forward."

I see a lot of Oliver in Neale prior to this year's improvement.  I have been criticised on DL for saying Oliver accumulates high stats but doesn't impact the game.  He needs to impact games and kick goals himself and have more goal involvements.  Then he will be in the class of Dusty, Neale, Dangerfield.

I love Oliver and would love to see him fulfill his potential so I hope the club develops him to become a complete, elite player and not leave it up to 'natural' improvement.  I have little doubt he can do it.

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

23 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I see a lot of Oliver in Neale prior to this year.  I have been criticised on DL for saying Oliver accumulates high stats but doesn't impact the game.  He needs to impact games and kick goals himself and have more goal involvements.  Then he will be in the class of Dusty, Neale, Dangerfield.

I hope the club develops him to become a complete, elite player and not leave it up to 'natural' improvement.  I have little doubt he can do it.

Oliver is definitely good at padding out his stats, looks good that he gets 30+ each week, but he could be so much more damaging with 20 & 2-3 goals. There was a few weeks where Oliver started to really drive forward, but it didn't last too long.

Dustin Martin rarely has really huge possession numbers, but give him chance of space and he will hurt you, badly.

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by BW511

46 minutes ago, BW511 said:

Oliver is definitely good at padding out his stats, looks good that he gets 30+ each week, but he could be so much more damaging with 20 & 2-3 goals. There was a few weeks where Oliver started to really drive forward, but it didn't last too long.

Dustin Martin rarely has really huge possession numbers, but give him chance of space and he will hurt you, badly.

Yeah in tight we know what Oliver can do. The next phase is creating space for himself and what he does with the ball when he is in space. There were definitely some patches most notably the Adelaide game where there was a clear emphasis for him to drive his legs and break out of stoppages with pace before using the footy (Pointed out several times by his biggest admirer, King). I was one of those questioning why we don't see this more often from him. I feel its probably due to midfield roles and who does what more perhaps. We know that Trac and Viney are both encouraged to use their strength and power to break the tackle for forward momentum out of stoppages. Oliver for the most part gets the ball and looks to try and release players.

Considering the increased use of Petracca in the middle this year Oliver did well to keep some level of consistency. Now that they've had a full season together the combination of Oliver, Trac and Viney continuing to build chemistry and strategy is something I'm looking forward to for the next few seasons. All three have the potential to really break a game open on any given day. Brayshaw has perhaps fallen behind a bit but I think he showed that when he's put in the middle he's still so capable. Just needs to find that extra role when he's not in at the coal face.

Edited October 7, 20204 yr by Yung Blood

On 10/5/2020 at 4:23 PM, BW511 said:

Interestingly, I have been keeping one eye on the Cripps situation for this very reason. For those who don’t know, Cripps partner has some serious health concerns and there is suggestions of heading home to WA to assist her.

If Cripps goes home, you can bet Carlton will have cash and will want the best ball winner they can find (Oliver)
 

If things go totally pear shaped and Clarry did walk, it would be him instigating it, not the MFC. It is not too hard to see that they could improve quite rapidly and accelerate past us. They have some elite big men and are not afraid to target big fish after years of picking up GWS off cuts.

Perhaps this is what prompted the panicked call to his management from Petracca?

If we all hope for changes in our midfield over the offseason to fix the balance and end up with 5 more years of Viney, but lose Clarry, I’m out. I can’t possibly accept that. I think we’ve all been a little concerned that missing finals could prompt a raid on our couple of top Enders.
 

This could be and likely is just be a beat up based on the McClure comments, or maybe Gary Lyon thinks we’d all be shocked if Brayshaw goes to Perth? I’d hardly call that a ‘bombshell’ though

 

 

Yeah one of my friends who knows another friend of his friend who is his brother told me............  OMG no class no substance I do not believe a word....

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A must read for aspiring elite midfielders:  Lachie Neale's:  inside-the-mind-of-the-afl-s-best

This year, "I worked really hard on driving with my legs, kicking the ball a lot more and trying to get centre forward to set up a few more attacking plays for us, rather than just trying to accumulate the footy. I've worked really hard to change that and add little bits and pieces this year and it's come to fruition a bit this year and, if I kicked straighter this year, I'd have a few more goals (he's kicked 11.13)."

"There's been patches throughout this season where I haven't probably played at my best, so I can become even more consistent and try to deliver more week in and week out. I've tried to add a little bit in terms of when I get attention and release our players and free up a few of our players, which I haven't done so well in the past.

"It might not show in disposals and clearances and key stats, but trying to influence the game in other ways as well going forward."

I see a lot of Oliver in Neale prior to this year's improvement.  I have been criticised on DL for saying Oliver accumulates high stats but doesn't impact the game.  He needs to impact games and kick goals himself and have more goal involvements.  Then he will be in the class of Dusty, Neale, Dangerfield.

I love Oliver and would love to see him fulfill his potential so I hope the club develops him to become a complete, elite player and not leave it up to 'natural' improvement.  I have little doubt he can do it.

His k/hb ratio this year was 0.8, compated to 0.6 in 19 and 18, and 0.4 in 17 and 16. So it's a clear improvement.

I felt at the start of the year there was a determined effort to kick more. But as we know he was turning it over by foot a lot and was rightly hammered in the media.

He turned that around by driving out of the contest with his legs, gaining space and balance and kicking with less pressure. It was effective with his kicking effectiveness increasing dramatically for a 5 week block after that media hammering (starting with the Adelaide game).

It isnt a surprise that his kicking was rubbish in the Swans and Freo games. Was that the weather and subsequent game style? Or was he being down on form one of the reasons we lost?

His k/hb ratio for the first half of the season (r 1-9) was 0.79, while after that it increased to 0.90, also demonstrating changes in game style.

 

Interestingly, his kicking efficiency has been very similar over the last 3 years, but in 18 and 19, it was much more consistent between games, where in 20 in went up and down (which kicking ~20% more). Potentially showing he was trying something different.

 

 

Regarding coaching, I'll highlight this article:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the-twist-turning-oliver-s-game-around-20200806-p55j3g.html

"Demons coach Simon Goodwin identified that emerging midfielder Clayton Oliver was working on "driving his legs out of contest areas" to become a better player.

...

It's not as though Melbourne's coaches haven't correctly identified the area in which he needs to improve to become a gun of the competition.

... both Oliver and his coaches recognise that to maximise his value he needs to find space after winning the unwinnable ball.

That's why three weeks ago Goodwin was able to identify the midfielder's room for improvement while backing him to get there as one of the hardest-working players he had seen."

 

Sounds like he is getting the coaching he needs.

28 minutes ago, deanox said:

His k/hb ratio this year was 0.8, compated to 0.6 in 19 and 18, and 0.4 in 17 and 16. So it's a clear improvement.

I felt at the start of the year there was a determined effort to kick more. But as we know he was turning it over by foot a lot and was rightly hammered in the media.

He turned that around by driving out of the contest with his legs, gaining space and balance and kicking with less pressure. It was effective with his kicking effectiveness increasing dramatically for a 5 week block after that media hammering (starting with the Adelaide game).

It isnt a surprise that his kicking was rubbish in the Swans and Freo games. Was that the weather and subsequent game style? Or was he being down on form one of the reasons we lost?

His k/hb ratio for the first half of the season (r 1-9) was 0.79, while after that it increased to 0.90, also demonstrating changes in game style.

 

Interestingly, his kicking efficiency has been very similar over the last 3 years, but in 18 and 19, it was much more consistent between games, where in 20 in went up and down (which kicking ~20% more). Potentially showing he was trying something different.

 

 

Regarding coaching, I'll highlight this article:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/the-twist-turning-oliver-s-game-around-20200806-p55j3g.html

"Demons coach Simon Goodwin identified that emerging midfielder Clayton Oliver was working on "driving his legs out of contest areas" to become a better player.

...

It's not as though Melbourne's coaches haven't correctly identified the area in which he needs to improve to become a gun of the competition.

... both Oliver and his coaches recognise that to maximise his value he needs to find space after winning the unwinnable ball.

That's why three weeks ago Goodwin was able to identify the midfielder's room for improvement while backing him to get there as one of the hardest-working players he had seen."

 

Sounds like he is getting the coaching he needs.

 

When I mentioned coaching, I was thinking the 'how to improve' in addition to identifying the 'what needs to improve'.  (A bit like knowing we need to improve our fwd cohesion but coaches haven't worked out the magic formular to make it happen). 

Certainly agree, this year shows he is improving his weaknesses.  He strikes me as being very coachable so am confident the improvement will continue.

 

I was really saying he has elite stats but is not yet the elite player some suggest due (imv) to lack of  scoreboard/gameimpact.  But he is just 23.  Dusty, Dangerfield and Neale were 25-27 when they reached that elite level.  Oliver will be just as good if not better when he gets to that age group.

Imagine having both Oliver and Petracca as high impact mid-fielders.

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by Lucifer's Hero

22 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

You are jumping the gun a bit. Arrogant view to think he cannt improve with better coaching. He will be top five when he dominates a few finals.

He is top 5 now. He doesn't need to dominate finals to be a top 5 midfielder. That's not a good argument.

5 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A must read for aspiring elite midfielders:  Lachie Neale's:  inside-the-mind-of-the-afl-s-best

This year, "I worked really hard on driving with my legs, kicking the ball a lot more and trying to get centre forward to set up a few more attacking plays for us, rather than just trying to accumulate the footy. I've worked really hard to change that and add little bits and pieces this year and it's come to fruition a bit this year and, if I kicked straighter this year, I'd have a few more goals (he's kicked 11.13)."

"There's been patches throughout this season where I haven't probably played at my best, so I can become even more consistent and try to deliver more week in and week out. I've tried to add a little bit in terms of when I get attention and release our players and free up a few of our players, which I haven't done so well in the past.

"It might not show in disposals and clearances and key stats, but trying to influence the game in other ways as well going forward."

I see a lot of Oliver in Neale prior to this year's improvement.  I have been criticised on DL for saying Oliver accumulates high stats but doesn't impact the game.  He needs to impact games and kick goals himself and have more goal involvements.  Then he will be in the class of Dusty, Neale, Dangerfield.

I love Oliver and would love to see him fulfill his potential so I hope the club develops him to become a complete, elite player and not leave it up to 'natural' improvement.  I have little doubt he can do it.

I think the "driving with my legs" and "[setting] up a few more attacking plays" are the things Oliver needs to and will work on, but consistency IMO isn't one of them. As @deanox's excellent post above highlights, Oliver's consistency and level for a player of his age is unmatched.

I'd say Oliver is comfortably A grade, even on the cusp of A+ grade, but will walk to A+ status if he can hit the scoreboard more/get involved in scores from clearance more and accelerate out of stoppages more consistently. 

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by A F

I think coaching does play some part in maximising Oliver's dominance though. The fact that he, Petracca and Viney were all dominant contested ball winners this year and we often lost overall clearance, means that our coaching is not good enough in that area of the ground IMO.

I think a new midfield coach will take Clarry to another level.

Edited October 8, 20204 yr by A F

1 minute ago, A F said:

I think coaching does play some part in maximising Oliver's dominance though. The fact that he, Petracca and Viney were all dominant contested ball winners this year and we often lost clearance, means that our coaching is not good enough in that area of the ground IMO.

I think a new midfield coach will take Clarry to another level.

I think it's a lot to do with Max to be honest mate, 

these guys are dominant mids, but i don't think we get anything like the value for Max's dominance that we should, but the reality of Max's dominance is that we set up very aggressively to win clearance and don't give ourselves much room to defend as a result, so if we lose stoppage or they get it to the outside we're under the pump. 

Max in my view is the single most dominant tap ruckman i've ever seen, and we should be scoring 5-6 goals per game as a result of that dominance. but the majority of his taps the players aren't reading, or aren't quite right so they're either contested or to the other side too often. 

I think a gun midfield/stoppage coach could tidy this up very quickly, i think this is the area, where if we get it right, we will become a top 4 side very quickly. because our backline is solid, and if we can get the ball in to our forwards 1v1 from clean clearance more regulalry, they'll be hard to stop.

2 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I think it's a lot to do with Max to be honest mate, 

these guys are dominant mids, but i don't think we get anything like the value for Max's dominance that we should, but the reality of Max's dominance is that we set up very aggressively to win clearance and don't give ourselves much room to defend as a result, so if we lose stoppage or they get it to the outside we're under the pump. 

Max in my view is the single most dominant tap ruckman i've ever seen, and we should be scoring 5-6 goals per game as a result of that dominance. but the majority of his taps the players aren't reading, or aren't quite right so they're either contested or to the other side too often. 

I think a gun midfield/stoppage coach could tidy this up very quickly, i think this is the area, where if we get it right, we will become a top 4 side very quickly. because our backline is solid, and if we can get the ball in to our forwards 1v1 from clean clearance more regulalry, they'll be hard to stop.

Completely agree, it's funny that whenever max is injured our midfield seems to be more productive clearance wise in my mind. And really that shouldn't be the case, with Max in we should be so much better. Hopefully what you said comes through and we fix it next year (but i doubt it).

1 minute ago, A F said:

I think the "driving with my legs" and "[setting] up a few more attacking plays" are the things Oliver needs to and will work on, but consistency IMO isn't one of them. As @deanox's excellent post above highlights, Oliver's consistency and level for a player of his age is unmatched.

I'd say Oliver is comfortably A grade, even on the cusp of A+ grade, but will walk to A+ if he can hit the scoreboard more/get involved in scores from clearance more and accelerate out of stoppages more consistently. 

We are saying the same thing: he has things to improve to be elite.  In time he will be. 

imv his performances weren't consistent this year.  Not saying the stats don't say that.  I'm going on the coaches votes which show he voted in 6 of 17 games for a total of 34 votes.  24 of those votes were in 3 games. 

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We are saying the same thing: he has things to improve to be elite.  In time he will be. 

imv his performances weren't consistent this year.  Not saying the stats don't say that.  I'm going on the coaches votes which show he voted in 6 of 17 games for a total of 34 votes.  24 of those votes were in 3 games. 

Was definitely a down year for Clarry. but i feel like he showed positive signs in the areas the majority of people would like to see him improve. 

He's definitely running and carrying more, kicking more, getting forward more and i feel like his kicking is much better. 

I'm actually backing it to really click for him next year and will be putting some cheeky $$ on Clarry to win the brownlow in 2021. i feel like he's so close to going to the next level and even overtaking Lachie Neale. 

26 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

Was definitely a down year for Clarry. but i feel like he showed positive signs in the areas the majority of people would like to see him improve. 

He's definitely running and carrying more, kicking more, getting forward more and i feel like his kicking is much better. 

I'm actually backing it to really click for him next year and will be putting some cheeky $$ on Clarry to win the brownlow in 2021. i feel like he's so close to going to the next level and even overtaking Lachie Neale. 

 

I repeat the post you quoted:

31 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We are saying the same thing: he has things to improve to be elite.  In time he will be.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I think it's a lot to do with Max to be honest mate, 

these guys are dominant mids, but i don't think we get anything like the value for Max's dominance that we should, but the reality of Max's dominance is that we set up very aggressively to win clearance and don't give ourselves much room to defend as a result, so if we lose stoppage or they get it to the outside we're under the pump. 

Max in my view is the single most dominant tap ruckman i've ever seen, and we should be scoring 5-6 goals per game as a result of that dominance. but the majority of his taps the players aren't reading, or aren't quite right so they're either contested or to the other side too often. 

I think a gun midfield/stoppage coach could tidy this up very quickly, i think this is the area, where if we get it right, we will become a top 4 side very quickly. because our backline is solid, and if we can get the ball in to our forwards 1v1 from clean clearance more regulalry, they'll be hard to stop.

Totally agree, mate.

It's why I was harsher on Max this year too. I just don't think we're getting bang for our buck from him, given he could barely get off the ground in the second half of the year.

As you say, our defence is solid, hopefully we can add another winger or two to compliment Langdon and fix our midfield and I completely concur. Top 4 is a reasonable aim.

I'd be spending big on a midfield coach, get Yze to look after the forwardline or strategy, and look at two others and Stafford being the ruck coach and that's it. I wonder if Stafford is an issue?

42 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

We are saying the same thing: he has things to improve to be elite.  In time he will be. 

imv his performances weren't consistent this year.  Not saying the stats don't say that.  I'm going on the coaches votes which show he voted in 6 of 17 games for a total of 34 votes.  24 of those votes were in 3 games. 

We're saying just about the same thing mate, but I'm saying he's elite already.

I just think it's the difference between A grade and A+ grade.

My good mate's, sister's friend,. brother 's ,  girlfriend's Dad said that Clayton is going no where. He is staying put. 

That is good enough for me.  Tell them they are dreaming  Barry.   So there! 

1 hour ago, A F said:

I think coaching does play some part in maximising Oliver's dominance though. The fact that he, Petracca and Viney were all dominant contested ball winners this year and we often lost overall clearance, means that our coaching is not good enough in that area of the ground IMO.

I think a new midfield coach will take Clarry to another level.

Agree vehemently with what you and Lucifer have been saying AF, i would just like to be able to see the plan and is Max a factor?

On 10/6/2020 at 6:27 AM, Ethan Tremblay said:

If Oliver is traded this year I’ll donate an eyeball to science. 

I’m blind in one eye, if you’re not using it, can I have it?