51 minutes ago, binman said:

In your opinion.

And yes i know that it is given given forums are places to state opinion. But you sometimes run the risk, it seems to me, of confusing fact and opinion. 

No I don't

I'm a realist and you are too much of an optimist. And you make far too many excuses

I'm not sure you even understand how footy works ... you're too much of a dreamer and a group-thinker

So were Hassa Mann,  Alves,  Wells,  Flower, Ditterich, JMac and others all poor captains?  By your silly way of measuring things they all failed.

You are another one who doesn't understand drafting.  You have been well and truly conned

You make it personal,  I make it personal.

You don't like my views put me on ignore.  Won't worry me one bit.

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

And they got it horribly wrong

Well done  Champion data

No they didn't because they were rating talent, and talent doesn't guarantee performance.

See what I'm saying?

14 minutes ago, Macca said:

No I don't

I'm a realist and you are too much of an optimist. And you make far too many excuses

I'm not sure you even understand how footy works ... you're too much of a dreamer and a group-thinker

So were Hassa Mann,  Alves,  Wells,  Flower, Ditterich, JMac and others all poor captains?  By your silly way of measuring things they all failed.

You are another one who doesn't understand drafting.  You have been well and truly conned

You make it personal,  I make it personal.

You don't like my views put me on ignore.  Won't worry me one bit.

Blimey, over reaction much.

I made it personal by saying 'you sometimes run the risk, it seems to me, of confusing fact and opinion' ? Are you serious ? Pretty mild comment by me

Not meant as an insult but even if taken that way certainly not proportionate to those you just threw at me - i don't understand how footy works, i'm a dreamer and group thinker, i make too many excuses and i don't understand how drafting works (nor do the professional recruiters seemingly) - Sheesh. I must have really touched a nerve.

And i have no idea what you point you are making about Hassa man, Alves, Wells etc etc (don't worry about elaborating by the by).

If you can't engage in a discussion without resort to insult then i won't bother trying to have a reasonable discussion with you.

Whatever floats your boat i guess. 

See ya.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

 

See what I'm saying?

Not really

I don't understand much of what you say at all

You are too argumentative ... you should let others have their say without constantly jumping at shadows

However,  I doubt you'll ever learn from your mistakes.

 

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by Macca

2 minutes ago, binman said:

See ya.

Good riddance

One more time waster gone

On 1/8/2020 at 1:45 PM, Diamond_Jim said:

Suppose the measure for powerhouses then and now are different. Attendance wise we were ahead by miles simply because we had the MCG. Supporters of opponent teams pencilled in their MCG match simply because it was their one day of "comfort" in watching the football.

Moneywise the teams were still relative amateurs I assume with the weekly pay be a few pounds at most. Training was twice a week after work etc. You didn't need big money to run a footy club perhaps.

And of course at the time we were a subset of the MCC who probably controlled our purse-strings.

And then we get to the big question.. geography... up until some point a teams following was largely determined by which suburb you lived in. Controlling got the northern suburbs. Carlton won the immigrants etc. Did Melbourne benefit or did we just get the male children of the silvertails who registered their kids for school and clubs at birth. Stereotype perhaps but there is a shred of truth.

So I suppose we were a powerhouse in an era when perhaps it didn't matter as much.

Very good point DJ.

I reckon we got serious when RDB came back for 5 years but we were coming from a long way back and even Ron couldn't improve the list that much.  But Ron did leave things in better shape for Northey. 

It's always amazed me how other clubs can often have an abundance of talent where as we've often struggled to even have half a dozen top performers.  Year after year after year.  Last year we had very few top performers.  5 & 17 as a result.  

The biggest failure has been with list building. 

We've had various coaches,  captains & leadership groups yet as time goes on it still comes down to the levels of actual playing talent. 

So if the FD (re the recruitment team) can't do their job then those who ultimately make all the FD appointments are the next rung in the chain.  And the various boards we've had who have overseen it all.  Does it all stem from the top?  I'd say yes.  As a club we sit back.

Again,  list building and building premiership type lists has been our failure. 

My measurement has always been to compare our list to the best team's lists.  And we've often fallen short often to quite a large degree.  And it's no accident if the theme is consistent. 

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by Macca

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Very good point DJ.

I reckon we got serious when RDB came back for 5 years but we were coming from a long way back and even Ron couldn't improve the list that much.  But Ron did leave things in better shape for Northey. 

It's always amazed me how other clubs can often have an abundance of talent where as we've often struggled to even have half a dozen top performers.  Year after year after year.  Last year we had very few top performers.  5 & 17 as a result.  

The biggest failure has been with list building. 

We've had various coaches,  captains & leadership groups yet as time goes on it still comes down to the levels of actual playing talent. 

So if the FD (re the recruitment team) can't do their job then those who ultimately make all the FD appointments are the next rung in the chain.  And the various boards we've had who have overseen it all.  Does it all stem from the top?  I'd say yes.  As a club we sit back.

Again,  list building and building premiership type lists has been our failure. 

My measurement has always been to compare our list to the best team's lists.  And we've often fallen short often to quite a large degree.  And it's no accident if the theme is consistent. 

I don't know what to say except that you are missing the point. Raw talent and recruiting it is only one part of it, having strong on field and off field leadership is another part of it, having a great development program is another, so too is having a strong coaching group. You can add to that having a system based approach that allows a 'one soldier down, the next steps in' approach. You can also layer a great medical and fitness group. Further still you need strong sports psychology or a culture that keeps everyone focussed and positive through personal and group though patches. 

All of those factors play into success, both one off and sustained. Sure, you will struggle to win without talent, but you'll struggle to win without the other factors also, and you'll need to align many or all of those to create a dynasty. 

As an aside, great teams make individuals look elite. Very few do it on their own in team sport. Sure there are the freaks but many of the teams that are successful over a period of time are not that way because of individual talent. They make each other look good because they are predictable to each other and drilled on where to be and when so they can receive or block. Talent helps big time but so does all the other stuff. It is just to simplistic to focus on just one aspect. 

1 hour ago, FlashInThePan said:

I don't know what to say except that you are missing the point. Raw talent and recruiting it is only one part of it, having strong on field and off field leadership is another part of it, having a great development program is another, so too is having a strong coaching group. You can add to that having a system based approach that allows a 'one soldier down, the next steps in' approach. You can also layer a great medical and fitness group. Further still you need strong sports psychology or a culture that keeps everyone focussed and positive through personal and group though patches. 

All of those factors play into success, both one off and sustained. Sure, you will struggle to win without talent, but you'll struggle to win without the other factors also, and you'll need to align many or all of those to create a dynasty. 

As an aside, great teams make individuals look elite. Very few do it on their own in team sport. Sure there are the freaks but many of the teams that are successful over a period of time are not that way because of individual talent. They make each other look good because they are predictable to each other and drilled on where to be and when so they can receive or block. Talent helps big time but so does all the other stuff. It is just to simplistic to focus on just one aspect. 

But I am not focusing on one aspect ... just highlighting the most important aspect. 

Proven talent in a combination that can win big.

All the rest of it can't work without the base product. 

e.g.  Our 2012/13 list couldn't possibly win a premiership regardless of whether every other aspect of the club was firing on all cylinders.

Is that clear enough for you?

Or do you need 20 or 30 other years where we've clearly been a ordinary outfit?

My original point stands ... we have not ever had a great list since the halcyon days and that is why we haven't won big since '64. 

What is your reasoning about our lack of success?  Bad luck?  The curse?  The MCC involvement? 

Come on ... I've stuck my neck out,  you do the same.

Tell us all why we've been largely unsuccessful for more than half a century

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by Macca

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

But I am not focusing on one aspect ... just highlighting the most important aspect. 

Proven talent in a combination that can win big.

All the rest of it can't work without the base product. 

e.g.  Our 2012/13 list couldn't possibly win a premiership regardless of whether every other aspect of the club was firing on all cylinders.

Is that clear enough for you?

I've come in late on this discussion 'Macca', but I agree that our list has been substandard.

That recent list of our top 10 players of the last decade pretty much showed that up as a fact.

The Champion Data rating last year was a joke...

I do like the way we look now and they have us at 12...a better list than the one they rated as best in the AFL.

Part of the problem has been development, coaching etc. but you still need quality to work with.

The trading and additions we've made over the last couple of years have strengthened the list...we just need to get and keep them on the park.

I know you're not a fan of our forward set up and for good reason...it's our weakness.

I think Fritsch could be the wildcard here but he is going to work best as the 3rd forward in a traditional set up...Tommy is a number 2 at best and we don't have the Key...It's going to have to be manipulated to work.

We don't have the players to play a traditional forward set up...maybe with the mid sizers we can make something work.

Goodie is going to have to earn his money and pull something out of the bag...

As the thread is about the Captain...I've said it before but Gawn as sole skipper for me.

...but I don't think it will make a world of difference.

Get good cattle, coach them well and keep them on the park.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I've come in late on this discussion 'Macca', but I agree that our list has been substandard.

That recent list of our top 10 players of the last decade pretty much showed that up as a fact.

The Champion Data rating last year was a joke...

I do like the way we look now and they have us at 12...a better list than the one they rated as best in the AFL.

Part of the problem has been development, coaching etc. but you still need quality to work with.

The trading and additions we've made over the last couple of years have strengthened the list...we just need to get and keep them on the park.

I know you're not a fan of our forward set up and for good reason...it's our weakness.

I think Fritsch could be the wildcard here but he is going to work best as the 3rd forward in a traditional set up...Tommy is a number 2 at best and we don't have the Key...It's going to have to be manipulated to work.

We don't have the players to play a traditional forward set up...maybe with the mid sizers we can make something work.

Goodie is going to have to earn his money and pull something out of the bag...

As the thread is about the Captain...I've said it before but Gawn as sole skipper for me.

...but I don't think it will make a world of difference.

Get good cattle, coach them well and keep them on the park.

 

And I noticed that 'Saty' has been copping it on the training thread for giving an honest appraisal of our 2019 season.  Good on him I say. 

Must be the time to be all chipper and optimistic hey?  The off season brings out the optimists but I hope they aren't disappointed (again)

All things considered I reckon the team last year was a 10 win outfit that only won 5 games.  And for whatever reason we fell away completely.  Good clubs don't allow that to happen.  It was as if we were in tank mode.  Perhaps we were.

10 - 12 wins is my call for 2020 but if everything goes well we might get 1 or 2 more wins.  But if we fall away again like we did last year 8 wins only is on the cards.  Tricky start to the season too.

I just don't rate the list that highly ... a lot of if's and but's and our game plan would want to improve greatly too.  As you've pointed out rjay,  the forward line remains the key for me.  Our ball movement and leg speed is too slow too.  Our disposal skills are often poor and we often choke in front of goal. 

Clean disposal from the stoppages is problematical and we desperately need May & Lever to be injury free.  There are a few other issues but we've got a lot to overcome.

I understand we've recruited to rectify needs but I want to see lots of positive signs before I buy-in.

Every player needs to get the maximum out of themselves ... no hand-holding,  if it is to be it is up to me (RDB)

Happy to be proven wrong if we do really well and win a couple of finals. 

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by Macca

So somewhere between 8 and 14 wins eh @Macca?  That's a pretty short neck you have there.

And a "happy to be wrong" reserve parachute at the end for icing.

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by Fifty-5

8 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

I don't know what to say except that you are missing the point. Raw talent and recruiting it is only one part of it, having strong on field and off field leadership is another part of it, having a great development program is another, so too is having a strong coaching group. You can add to that having a system based approach that allows a 'one soldier down, the next steps in' approach. You can also layer a great medical and fitness group. Further still you need strong sports psychology or a culture that keeps everyone focussed and positive through personal and group though patches. 

All of those factors play into success, both one off and sustained. Sure, you will struggle to win without talent, but you'll struggle to win without the other factors also, and you'll need to align many or all of those to create a dynasty. 

As an aside, great teams make individuals look elite. Very few do it on their own in team sport. Sure there are the freaks but many of the teams that are successful over a period of time are not that way because of individual talent. They make each other look good because they are predictable to each other and drilled on where to be and when so they can receive or block. Talent helps big time but so does all the other stuff. It is just to simplistic to focus on just one aspect. 

Totally agree FIP.

when I did my degree (Phillip Ins 90s) one of my lecturers was ?Hook who was one of the key personnel at the Hawks.

He stressed the total structure as you outlined.

i am hoping we have that same blend now and the ability to recognise and build "our" decade of success.

 

8 hours ago, rjay said:

I've come in late on this discussion 'Macca', but I agree that our list has been substandard.

That recent list of our top 10 players of the last decade pretty much showed that up as a fact.

The Champion Data rating last year was a joke...

I do like the way we look now and they have us at 12...a better list than the one they rated as best in the AFL.

Part of the problem has been development, coaching etc. but you still need quality to work with.

The trading and additions we've made over the last couple of years have strengthened the list...we just need to get and keep them on the park.

I know you're not a fan of our forward set up and for good reason...it's our weakness.

I think Fritsch could be the wildcard here but he is going to work best as the 3rd forward in a traditional set up...Tommy is a number 2 at best and we don't have the Key...It's going to have to be manipulated to work.

Goodie is going to have to earn his money and pull something out of the bag...

Get good cattle, coach them well and keep them on the park.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Macca said:

And for whatever reason we fell away completely.  Good clubs don't allow that to happen. 

Clean disposal from the stoppages is problematical and we desperately need May & Lever to be injury free.  There are a few other issues but we've got a lot to overcome.

I understand we've recruited to rectify needs 

Every player needs to get the maximum out of themselves ... no hand-holding,  if it is to be it is up to me (RDB)

Just emphasising the points I strongly agree with. Thanks for all comments. Yes I am "dpositive" and all feedback from training has reinforced that.

its gonna be another long season. Goodie and the team are really going to have to earn their money.  

20 minutes ago, dpositive said:

Totally agree FIP.

when I did my degree (Phillip Ins 90s) one of my lecturers was ?Hook who was one of the key personnel at the Hawks.

He stressed the total structure as you outlined.

i am hoping we have that same blend now and the ability to recognise and build "our" decade of success.

Please tell me he didn't say, "There's no 'I' in 'team'". And if he did, I hope someone pointed out that there is 'me'.

In terms of talent and leadership an interesting situation is evolving at Philly in the NBA.

Simmons is one of the most talented players in the world. A lock for the all star team for his career. His skill set is extraordinary. In terms of talent he has been compared to le bron.

But the knock on his game is leadership and his refusal to take his game out of his comfort zone by not taking jump shots. On leasership he has been criticized for not stepping up in big games and passing in clutch moments instead of say driving to the hoop.

Embid is also supertalented. Incredibly skilled and strong. Not the same knock on his leadership but there are some question marks.

There are no other natural leaders.

Philly had the talent to win the title last year. They got pipped by the ultimate winner who boasted arguably the best leader in the NBA, Leonard. Leonard was brilliant all finals series and against Philly put his team on his back, culminating in a freak clutch three pointer. Nothing between those two teams talent wise.  Leadership was the critical difference.

Phillt have the talent (which of coure is critical) but unless Simmons and embid step up and lead their team the way say Giannis does they are not winning it the title this year either.

 

 

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by binman

3 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Please tell me he didn't say, "There's no 'I' in 'team'". And if he did, I hope someone pointed out that there is 'me'.

Not sure, but don't believe he did. There were many "buzz words/phrases" at the time but Hook was fantastic in stressing  structures and components, individual traits and organisational.He always stressed the difference she between organisations but his practical application to his footy experience was very insightful.

12 minutes ago, binman said:

In terms of talent and leadership an interesting situation is evolving at Philly in the NBA.

Simmons is one of the most talented players in the world. A lock for the all star team for his career. His skill set is extraordinary. In terms of talent he has been compared to le bron.

But the knock on his game is leadership and his refusal to take his game out of his comfort zone by not taking jump shots. On leasership he has been criticized for not stepping up in big games and passing in clutch moments instead of say driving to the hoop.

Elvis is also supertalented. Incredibly skilled and strong. Not the same knock on his leadership but there are some question marks.

There are no other natural leaders.

Philly had the talent to win the title last year. They got pipped by the ultimate winner who boasted arguably the best leader in the NBA, Leonard. Leonard was brilliant all finals series and against Philly put his team on his back, culminating in a freak clutch three pointer. Nothing between those two teams talent wise.  Leadership was the critical difference.

Phillt have the talent (which of coure is critical) but unless Simmons and embid step up and lead their team the way say Giannis does they are not winning it the title this year either.

Showing my age a bit here, but as a Pistons fan I can more than attest to the value of structure, roles and 'playing the right way' (credit Larry brown) and seeing teams, who are in no way the most talented, have the highest success by value of coaching, leadership and identity.

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Showing my age a bit here, but as a Pistons fan I can more than attest to the value of structure, roles and 'playing the right way' (credit Larry brown) and seeing teams, who are in no way the most talented, have the highest success by value of coaching, leadership and identity.

 

Pop, srguably one of the greatest nba coaches, has a built a dynasty at San Antonio on the same principles.

12 minutes ago, binman said:

Pop, srguably one of the greatest nba coaches, has a built a dynasty at San Antonio on the same principles.

Interestingly I heard Jordan Lewis talking yesterday about how the Hawks based a lot of their principles on the Spurs.

 

Can a separate thread be created for all of the discussion that is not related to  the 2020 Captiancy. I come in here expecting information, discussion and opinions on the Captiancy only to read about the 1960-2000's and other unrelated diatribe.

3 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

So somewhere between 8 and 14 wins eh @Macca? 

Yep,  and I reckon many have the same sort of variable outcome ... if they were being honest.

If we get a rash of injuries or we don't regain form we could easily have another unproductive year re wins

But if everything goes right we might eke out 13 or 14 wins

But I have already said that previously ... there are a lot of variables in footy.

For instance,  after our rash of injuries and other issues early last year I revised my expectations right down ... but not all the way down to 17 losses.

You should take all those who were predicting finals last year to account.  Who the hell was predicting a 5 win season?  I'd say no one.

Make sense to you now? 

You reckon we're going to win the flag?  You've been telling everyone that ad nauseum

You should put your money where your mouth is and make sure it hurts your hip pocket.  Good luck trying to get a collect. 

I would never bet against my own team so you'll have to find another bookie.

Edited January 9, 20205 yr by Macca

24 minutes ago, chookrat said:

Can a separate thread be created for all of the discussion that is not related to  the 2020 Captiancy. I come in here expecting information, discussion and opinions on the Captiancy only to read about the 1960-2000's and other unrelated diatribe.

I think Max and Viney should - and will be - co captains.

1 hour ago, chookrat said:

Can a separate thread be created for all of the discussion that is not related to  the 2020 Captiancy. I come in here expecting information, discussion and opinions on the Captiancy only to read about the 1960-2000's and other unrelated diatribe.

As rjay said,  we could make Gawn the sole captain and it wouldn't make a world of difference.

All the players on the list need to get the best out of themselves and be self driven

If they need someone to hold their hands then we're in for another year of pain.  The players need to be able to think for themselves. 

That is the real issue ... the rest of it is just shuffling the deck chairs.

I also believe that Jones & Viney were doing about as well as they can do so why change?  If Jones has stepped down then fair enough but he's done nothing wrong in the role.

Edited January 10, 20205 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, Macca said:

As rjay said,  we could make Gawn the sole captain and it wouldn't make a world of difference.

All the players on the list need to get the best out of themselves and be self driven

If they need someone to hold their hands then we're in for another year of pain.  The players need to be able to think for themselves. 

That is the real issue ... the rest of it is just shuffling the deck chairs.

I also believe that Jones & Viney were doing about as well as they can do so why change?  If Jones has stepped down then fair enough but he's done nothing wrong in the role.

So the Captaincy Role (There should only ever be one) and Onfield Leadership are not important...

and the Draft is a complete lottery...

Ok right....

 

Saw an Instagram post with Gawn, Viney and Lever training together outside official training. 

My first thought - "Is that the leadership group?"