Amazing despite our mediocrity and lack of recognised  leadership that posters here still defend completely dud captains. 

  On 23/09/2019 at 23:38, Redleg said:

I know drafting is an inexact science, but we have had far too many misses. I won't mention wasted early picks in Toumpas, Cook and Morton as that would only upset people.

Thanks for upsetting me 'Red'...

  On 23/09/2019 at 21:19, Whispering_Jack said:

I think it’s interesting that Patrick Cripps was on course to win the Brownlow until Teague came along and changed the way Carlton played bringing more players to the fore who ultimately took votes away from him. 

Also interesting that if Neale stayed a Docker, Fyfe probably doesn't win.

Plus, if Kelly had been traded last year, Dangerfield probably wins.

A lot of luck in footy, on and off the field.

Edited September 23, 20195 yr by Redleg

  On 23/09/2019 at 23:42, rjay said:

Thanks for upsetting me 'Red'...

Sorry, can I shout you a coffee?

  On 23/09/2019 at 23:41, america de cali said:

Amazing despite our mediocrity and lack of recognised  leadership that posters here still defend completely dud captains. 

I'm not sure they're defending the captains, they just don't see this as the correct metric to evaluate them and that's fair.

This list shows why...

  On 23/09/2019 at 21:04, waynewussell said:

Add these blokes to the list of 'worthless' captains...

Easton Wood (0 votes)

Tom Jonas (0 votes)

Ben Stratton (0 votes)

Witts (1 vote)

Geary (1 vote)

Walker (2 votes)

Hurn (3 votes)

Heppel (3 votes)

J Selwood (3 votes)

P Davis (3 votes)

Ron Barassi... In the two seasons he won the Demons' best-and-fairest award, 1961 and 1964, he managed only 10 votes from the umpires.

 

  On 23/09/2019 at 23:44, rjay said:

I'm not sure they're defending the captains, they just don't see this as the correct metric to evaluate them and that's fair.

This list shows why...

 

Only Heppel and Selwood out of that bunch would be considered playing as potential  true vote attracting mid fielders. The others are key forwards and defenders who never traditionally do well in Brownlows. Witts could have gotten more but he plays for the Suns. Still Heppel and Selwood have more votes each than both our two so called leaders combined. I believe the metric is valid. Viney and Jones are complete non entities and irrelevant in the umpires eyes.

Edited September 23, 20195 yr by america de cali

  On 23/09/2019 at 13:27, Sir Why You Little said:

Spare me the excuses please....

Both Captains play in the Midfield 

Played all season. Did nothing. 

FFS TMac polled 6 votes from 2 games

Jones had an OK year - not great and not particularly bad. But he didn't spend much of it in the midfield. He spent most of the season on the wing or the half back flank with occasional stints forward.

Whether Jones and Viney should be captains is a good question, but their polling in the Brownlow is probably the least worthy metric by which to assess their suitability for the job. 

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:02, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Jones had an OK year - not great and not particularly bad. But he didn't spend much of it in the midfield. He spent most of the season on the wing or the half back flank with occasional stints forward.

Whether Jones and Viney should be captains is a good question, but their polling in the Brownlow is probably the least worthy metric by which to assess their suitability for the job. 

Goodwin just basically played Jones anywhere where he could hide him for the majority of the season. He was a liability at both ends and in the middle. His season was sub VFL standard throughout. The only positives were some cheap goals he got on the end of a few times.

Edited September 24, 20195 yr by america de cali

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:02, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Jones had an OK year - not great and not particularly bad. But he didn't spend much of it in the midfield. He spent most of the season on the wing or the half back flank with occasional stints forward.

Whether Jones and Viney should be captains is a good question, but their polling in the Brownlow is probably the least worthy metric by which to assess their suitability for the job. 

Jones year was far from ok. What did he do that makes you say that?

i am always amazed at how low we judge our own. 

The Brownlow is a Midfielders award, and our 2 Captains play in that area of the ground, 43 games out of 44

fairly damming to me

  On 23/09/2019 at 23:38, Redleg said:

 Experts working on drafting for a year or two with a group of players, should be able to nail top 10 picks most of the time. Not always, but most of the time. If they can't, they are no good at their job.

Agree, any fool can pick from the Top10.
It's deeper in the draft the good selectors really earn their coin.

Viney wasn't irrelevant in the Elimination final of 2018, coming back after a seven match absence due to injury, he took G Ablett apart in the first half, going a long way to helping the team move through to the Semi... his 20 possessions included 13 contested, along with 11 tackles... He goes one better in the Semi v Hawks with 27 possessions, 17 of those contested. I looked back to his previous few games before injury... Round 16 - 28 possessions/10 contested... Round 15 - 26 possessions/14 contested.

Then I checked his most recent games in 2019... last four rounds - 3 above 20 possessions, one other 18 possessions.

Most here would be aware that injury has had a detrimental effect on Viney's form for the past four seasons... He has had great difficulty putting a pre-season together in that time. When he has made it onto the field, he continues to give his all... fearless, dogged and, on several occasions, inspiring! There is no mystery about his appointment as Captain... he is still young. Barring injury, he will get better. Childish to treat him with such disrespect!

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:18, waynewussell said:

Viney wasn't irrelevant in the Elimination final of 2018, coming back after a seven match absence due to injury, he took G Ablett apart in the first half, going a long way to helping the team move through to the Semi... his 20 possessions included 13 contested, along with 11 tackles... He goes one better in the Semi v Hawks with 27 possessions, 17 of those contested. I looked back to his previous few games before injury... Round 16 - 28 possessions/10 contested... Round 15 - 26 possessions/14 contested.

Then I checked his most recent games in 2019... last four rounds - 3 above 20 possessions, one other 18 possessions.

Most here would be aware that injury has had a detrimental effect on Viney's form for the past four seasons... He has had great difficulty putting a pre-season together in that time. When he has made it onto the field, he continues to give his all... fearless, dogged and, on several occasions, inspiring! There is no mystery about his appointment as Captain... he is still young. Barring injury, he will get better. Childish to treat him with such disrespect!

Viney has upside but not as a leader. Jones needs to retire pronto. 

Willow coming on SEN with Whately now re his lost medal presentation last night

 

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:20, america de cali said:

Viney has upside but not as a leader. Jones needs to retire pronto. 

Jones won't retire till he's told.
He's smart enough to know he won't earn 350K a year in the real world.
Gotta fund the family ski trips somehow.
He calls it "Perspective".

Viney leads by example... the closest we have to Selwood. He is 25 and yet to reach his peak. Jones has been outstanding for a long time!

Jones stopped being outstanding 2 years ago.

What is really amazing here is that Trolls on this site can reach well in excess of 1500 posts!

 

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:10, Sir Why You Little said:

Jones year was far from ok. What did he do that makes you say that?

i am always amazed at how low we judge our own. 

The Brownlow is a Midfielders award, and our 2 Captains play in that area of the ground, 43 games out of 44

fairly damming to me

He wasn't dropped to the reserves. You may believe he should have been (and at times I did, too) but he kept his position in the side.  

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:29, waynewussell said:

Viney leads by example... the closest we have to Selwood. He is 25 and yet to reach his peak. Jones has been outstanding for a long time!

How would both our Captains have played last Saturday afternoon?

what kind of inspirational leadership did we see in 2019?

Lay it all out for us all to see. 

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:37, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

He wasn't dropped to the reserves. You may believe he should have been (and at times I did, too) but he kept his position in the side.  

Wow. That is telling criteria

no suprise we finished 17 under those guidelines 

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:29, waynewussell said:

Viney leads by example... the closest we have to Selwood. He is 25 and yet to reach his peak. Jones has been outstanding for a long time!

'Wayne', you've made a good point re the metric of the Brownlow not being a good indicator of whether or not someone should be captain. I agree with you on this.

However I don't think Viney is anything like Selwood as a captain.

On ground I can see some similarities but off ground they are poles apart. 

Personally I would rather Viney step down and concentrate on playing.

Nathan won't be Captain next season.

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:31, waynewussell said:

What is really amazing here is that Trolls on this site can reach well in excess of 1500 posts!

 

If only the club won more and embarrassed itself less.
Far less material to work with.
Wonder how the trolls are going on Yellow and Black right now.

Edited September 24, 20195 yr by Fork 'em

  On 23/09/2019 at 23:38, Redleg said:

Well it's actually not hindsight, if they declare their choices before the draft.

As an example most on DL thought we would take Daniel Talia if he was there at our pick. He was and we took Jordan Gysberts.

It was a shock to most DL's. It got much more shocking as the years rolled on.

That is but one of many examples.

I know drafting is an inexact science, but we have had far too many misses. I won't mention wasted early picks in Toumpas, Cook and Morton as that would only upset people.

Experts working on drafting for a year or two with a group of players, should be able to nail top 10 picks most of the time. Not always, but most of the time. If they can't, they are no good at their job.

As we know, drafting and trading are the ways to build a good list. Stuff that up and success becomes nearly impossible. 

All clubs have any misses, I still stand by my post that no one on this site could do a better job than the recruiting teams for any club

Edited September 24, 20195 yr by drysdale demon
spelling

  On 24/09/2019 at 00:40, Sir Why You Little said:

Wow. That is telling criteria

no suprise we finished 17 under those guidelines 

I'm not sure if we're agreeing or arguing! I agree that Jones should not be captain and that he is lucky not have been dropped during the season just passed. When I said that his season was OK because he wasn't dropped, that wasn't intended to be a ringing endorsement, just a statement that if he had actually been any poorer, he would have been playing in the VFL side.

However, as I've said many times on Demonland, the team's capatin doesn't have to be its best player. It has to be someone who is guaranteed to be in the team's best 22 when everyone is available but more importantly has to show leadership on and off the field. (In my opinion, showing leadership on field was not that important until they changed the rule about runners being on the ground). Off field leadership includes stuff we see - such as media interviews - as well as things we would have no idea about (setting training standards, meeting/greeting sponsors, setting professional standards, working with the younger players, etc). As Jones in 2020 could not possibly be guaranteed a spot in the best 22 and as neither Jones or Viney are good media performers, I don't think either should be captain.

Getting back to the point of this thread, how a player goes in the Brownlow is no indicator of whether they should be captain or not. Low vote numbers mean just as much as high vote numbers (does anyone believe Dustin Martin would be a good captain?)

Let the Co's just focus on getting the best pre-season in possible.

Both only managed half a pre-season so lets see how they go on all cylinders.

It's not just about fitness though they both need to improve their decision making and disposal skills and Viney needs to add some serious evasive agility and quick ball spread by hand to his arsenal if he's going to be asked to continue to play serious time in the middle.

Big M Captain and AVB as VC if he makes it through.  May as DVC or VC if AVB is still NQR towards the season proper.

I think Jack will improve with a full pre-season but he aint no captain.