16 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Nicky Winmar.
Who didn't get boo'd ....

Is that the same Nicky Winmar who was lucky to make it out alive from Victoria Park, flanked by security guards?

Who was spat on, and called a black c*** ?

What do you think prompted him to lift his jumper and point to his skin that day? A polite enquiry from the crowd?

When you decide - or think you can decide - which cultural dances Goodes can / can't perform, you're channeling the ghost of the old Coll president Alan McAllister, who said words to the effect of: 'we don't have a problem with Aboriginal people, as long as they conduct themselves the way we want them to.'

Edited June 19, 20195 yr by Grapeviney

25 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

Is that the same Nicky Winmar who was lucky to make it out alive from Victoria Park, flanked by security guards?

Who was spat on, and called a black c*** ?

What do you think prompted him to lift his jumper and point to his skin that day? A polite enquiry from the crowd?

When you decide - or think you can decide - which cultural dances Goodes can / can't perform, you're channeling the ghost of the old Filth president Alan McAllister, who said words to the effect of: 'we don't have a problem with Aboriginal people, as long as they conduct themselves the way we want them to.'

Well said, agree 1000%.

23 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Then you should have said that. Even then it is problematic because you’re referencing a crowd of people who’s ethnicity and background you have no way of determining individually. It is therefore still a blanket statement and still racially charged with labels and preconceived judgments. Using the word “some” furthermore renders your comment meaningless given that “some” is an arbitrary marker with no clearly defined metric. It could mean many, it could mean a few or anywhere else in between.

When it comes to commenting on a matter as sensitive as race, either be precise in your language or be prepared to have the holes in your Swiss cheese logic picked apart like the Demon defence in the first half of 2019. 

I apologise you were unable to understand my point without trying to turn it into some white people being victimised.

Ps Note I said 'some'

2 hours ago, Grapeviney said:

Is that the same Nicky Winmar who was lucky to make it out alive from Victoria Park, flanked by security guards?

Who was spat on, and called a black c*** ?

What do you think prompted him to lift his jumper and point to his skin that day? A polite enquiry from the crowd?

When you decide - or think you can decide - which cultural dances Goodes can / can't perform, you're channeling the ghost of the old Coll president Alan McAllister, who said words to the effect of: 'we don't have a problem with Aboriginal people, as long as they conduct themselves the way we want them to.'

No-one can decide what cultural dances a footballer can perform at a crowd of people any more than that footballer can decide how those cultural dances should/shouldn't be perceived by that crowd.

Racists may indeed have been incensed that this black so-and-so was "not behaving the way they wanted him to", no doubt about that. But others may have simply seen a man who they didn't particularly warm to running at them in an aggressive fashion, stoking up an argument with the nuffies, being divisive and acting like a dill.

You do realise it is okay and not racist for a person who happens to have light coloured skin to dislike a man who has black toned skin? Just as it is okay for a man with black toned skin to like/dislike a man with white toned skin. There are other possible reasons why one person might not like another person, whether it be their politics, personality, attitude - whatever!

To assert as you have that everyone with white toned skin at those games who boo'd Goodes' "War Dance" was somehow cursed by the ghost of Alan McAllister is a blanket judgment with no basis in reality. You absolutely cannot know that.

Again, racism exists wherever a negative value judgment is placed on a human being or group of human beings based solely on their physical and cultural appearance. It matters not what hue the skin.

It is amazing how simple this truth is yet so difficult for many to comprehend.

Edited June 19, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

2 hours ago, Melb16 said:

I apologise you were unable to understand my point without trying to turn it into some white people being victimised.

Ps Note I said 'some'

Your point is invalid as I explained and therefore meaningless.

35 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Your point is invalid as I explained and therefore meaningless.

It's interesting that out of my original post the ONLY thing you tried to argue was that it was racist to white people. Which says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.

Your straw man arguments will distract some from the real issues, which is unfortunate.  But it's not going to trick anyone with any sense of decency.

Make sure you watch the documentary too. Sam Newman will need someone to stick up for him after it's aired publicly...

3 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

Oh come on Matty, you’re a learned man, a scholar if you will. 

Are you aware of the term ‘institutionalised privilege’?  That’s why ‘white people’ is a moot point.

Or in another way...

 

“I wish I was another race, gender, minority group” - said no western white man ever...

 

Yes, I'm familiar with this line of reasoning EO. It brings back distant memories of third year pol-sci at Melbourne Uni, when indoctrinated Arts faculty heads would ram Marcuse, Chomsky, Foucalt and other radical post-Modernists of the New Left down our throats ad nauseum. It's a cute piece of intellectual sleight of hand, but that's all it is.

Slippery slope when you start declaring that the ends justify the means when it comes to prejudice. History is replete with genocides and atrocities which began with just that notion as the seed.

 

4 hours ago, Grapeviney said:

Is that the same Nicky Winmar who was lucky to make it out alive from Victoria Park, flanked by security guards?

Who was spat on, and called a black c*** ?

What do you think prompted him to lift his jumper and point to his skin that day? A polite enquiry from the crowd?

When you decide - or think you can decide - which cultural dances Goodes can / can't perform, you're channeling the ghost of the old Coll president Alan McAllister, who said words to the effect of: 'we don't have a problem with Aboriginal people, as long as they conduct themselves the way we want them to.'

 

I assume Winmar was being a divisive, virtue-signalling, social justice warrior, provoking a crowd who were exercising their freedom of speech in the spirit of true blue fun and banter...

 

24 minutes ago, Melb16 said:

It's interesting that out of my original post the ONLY thing you tried to argue was that it was racist to white people. Which says a whole lot more about you than it does about me.

Your straw man arguments will distract some from the real issues, which is unfortunate.  But it's not going to trick anyone with any sense of decency.

Make sure you watch the documentary too. Sam Newman will need someone to stick up for him after it's aired publicly...

It matters not to me whether someone is racist to white people, black people, Asian people or Middle Eastern people. I deplore racism and will call it out when I see, whether it's by you, Sam Newman or Anthony Mundine. All ignoramuses should have a spotlight shone on them.

You're out of your depth.

9 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

It matters not to me whether someone is racist to white people, black people, Asian people or Middle Eastern people. I deplore racism and will call it out when I see, whether it's by you, Sam Newman or Anthony Mundine. All ignoramuses should have a spotlight shone on them.

You're out of your depth.

Watch the documentary and then come back with your views.

I'll semi take your point on being careful with words. Only if for the greater cause.

I'm sorry for racially abusing all white people and I accept my own apology.

Edited June 19, 20195 yr by Melb16

31 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Yes, I'm familiar with this line of reasoning EO. It brings back distant memories of third year pol-sci at Melbourne Uni, when indoctrinated Arts faculty heads would ram Marcuse, Chomsky, Foucalt and other radical post-Modernists of the New Left down our throats ad nauseum. It's a cute piece of intellectual sleight of hand, but that's all it is.

Slippery slope when you start declaring that the ends justify the means when it comes to prejudice. History is replete with genocides and atrocities which began with just that notion as the seed.

 

I'm not sure you understood my gist... good banter in this thread though Matty, keep it up.

21 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

We actually started booing him early before all the BS about racism started.
There was this incident and another similar poor act which could have also been towards Godfrey in another game.
The AFL looked at them and of course called all clear due to their bias towards Brownlow winners and the games .... "Stars."
Richmond supporters had their own reasons that he also got away with.

 

As for the supposed "War dance."
He could've gone with the traditional emu or kangaroo dances to show his pride in culture in front of his own supporters but instead chose to go with a recently made up one running at opposition supporters brandishing an imaginary spear on National TV.
The booing he got wasn't because of racism till he tried to be the next Nicky Winmar.
Who didn't get boo'd ....
Just reaped what he sowed and then cried poor me when it all blew up in his face.

So I assume you boo every player that bumps another behind play. Does that also include pinching, jumper punching or gut punches?

You must spend the majority of each game you attend booing, Forkem.

Or do you just reserve that for aboriginal players?

Everybody seems to have a slightly different take.

My understanding was that Nicky Winmar was showing  a typical Vic Park crowd that intestinal fortitude got the saints the win that day.

But after the media published Wayne Lubdy's photo, showing skin, Nicky wisely decided never let the truth get in the way.

I could be wrong but I think Im right.

 

 

1 hour ago, Matsuo Basho said:

It matters not to me whether someone is racist to white people, black people, Asian people or Middle Eastern people. I deplore racism and will call it out when I see, whether it's by you, Sam Newman or Anthony Mundine. All ignoramuses should have a spotlight shone on them.

You're out of your depth.

I would argue that, as you appear to be a tertiary-educated white male, that you are the one who is out of their depth when discussing the true meaning of racism. Look beyond how the dictionary defines the word and understand that the notion of racism is underpinned by thousand of years of white imperialism throughout history. And sadly, in Australia, we don’t need to look back very far to see evidence of that. Our high court didn’t recognise native title until 1992. We didn’t apologise for the forceable removable of aboriginal children by Australian government agencies until 2008. Oh yes, how civilised we are. 

Only a white man of privilege would believe that they can be subjected to the same racial bias as our first peoples have been. And why anyone would seek to identify with this through idiotic comparisons of “racism” toward white people is hard to understand. Again, look beyond the word and have the common sense to accept what the term racism actually means in practise. 

Agreed. Well said Smokey

1 hour ago, Smokey said:

I would argue that, as you appear to be a tertiary-educated white male, that you are the one who is out of their depth when discussing the true meaning of racism. Look beyond how the dictionary defines the word and understand that the notion of racism is underpinned by thousand of years of white imperialism throughout history. And sadly, in Australia, we don’t need to look back very far to see evidence of that. Our high court didn’t recognise native title until 1992. We didn’t apologise for the forceable removable of aboriginal children by Australian government agencies until 2008. Oh yes, how civilised we are. 

Only a white man of privilege would believe that they can be subjected to the same racial bias as our first peoples have been. And why anyone would seek to identify with this through idiotic comparisons of “racism” toward white people is hard to understand. Again, look beyond the word and have the common sense to accept what the term racism actually means in practise. 

You’re completely wrong for reasons I’ve already outlined. My skin colour, nationality and socio-economic background has no bearing on the universality and accuracy of the truth I am speaking. And how would you know if I was ‘privileged’ anyway? I might live in a housing commission flat and get around in a wheelchair for all you know. Your comment is as full of preconceived judgments and prejudices as Demon16’s.

I don’t dispute the history of Western imperialism nor the racially biased policies of previous Australian governments. Why would you think I would? To understand and appreciate what I’m saying you’re going to have to unglue yourself from that limiting paradigm and see racism for what it is across all spectrums of experience.

Side note: “... as you appear to be a ...” is never a good way to start an argument on this topic.

Edited June 19, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

15 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

You’re completely wrong for reasons I’ve already outlined. My skin colour, nationality and socio-economic background has no bearing on the universality and accuracy of the truth I am speaking. And how would you know if I was ‘priveliged’ anyway? I might live in a housing commission flat and get around in a wheelchair for all you know. Your comment is as full of preconceived judgments and prejudices as Demon16’s.

I don’t dispute the history of Western imperialism nor the racially biased policies of previous Australian governments. Why would you think I would? To understand and appreciate what I’m saying you’re going to have to unglue yourself from that limiting paradigm and see racism for what it is across all spectrums of experience.

Side note: “... as you appear to be a ...” is never a good way to start an argument on this topic.

"You appear to be" was in reference to you announcing to the internet that you completed an undergrad while arguing that white people suffer racial bias. Wow that sentence is hard to read without throwing my phone at the wall.  

In the context of racism, being white is inherently to be privileged. It doesn't matter if you're from housing commissions or a private school, you weren't and never have been subject to racial bias as our indigenous people have, ergo your comments are truly condescending to those who actually experience it.

Your meaningless verbosity may be enough to fool some, but here in the real world, white people are not subject to racism. Anyone that claims they are on a quest to be recognised as a victim because they likely have nothing better to complain about in life. 

And that is what I call privilege.

7 hours ago, Smokey said:

"You appear to be" was in reference to you announcing to the internet that you completed an undergrad while arguing that white people suffer racial bias. Wow that sentence is hard to read without throwing my phone at the wall.  

That is NOT what I’ve argued at all. Ive repeatedly said that ANYONE can experience and suffer from racial bias. Black, white, brown, yellow, pink and otherwise. If you define racism as an exclusively black problem at all times, in all places and in all situations you effectively dehumanise segments of the population and give a green light now and into the future the kind of vitriolic, hatred tinged language that incubates further division among human beings in all their varieties of appearance.

Do you really think racism will be eradicated in this world by advocating ‘an eye for an eye’ or at the very least turning a blind eye to it? Because that’s what your hysterical and twisted reaction to my post effectively does. Mahatma Gandhi has a very special quote about that. I encourage you to look it up.

Bring people together. Unite them. Do not use language which is discriminatory, language which denies people their sovereign individuality, or language which ultimately is based on the lie that one group of people is inherently somehow constituted biologically, spiritually and emotionally differently from another. That is very germinal seed of conflict Sir no matter how hard you don’t want it to be, or with what force you want to throw your smartphone at the wall in frustration.

Smearing me as ‘privileged’ and therefore somehow incapable of comprehending your warped logic does not alter this truth. Bias and prejudice in all of its insidious forms should be called out and held to account at every turn, for the evil Hydra that it is.

Edited June 19, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

 MB: 0

Smokey: 1

Isnt this supposed to be a football forum??? Why does every post degenerate into a boring battle between opinionted buffoons who think they are morally superior? 

Being one of the most privileged people in history, white, Australian, middle class, male, born in the 2nd half of the 20th century, healthy and happy. It is very difficult to truly understand what it is to feel the hatred of racism. But what I do know is that racial taunts have no effect on me, why would they. To call me a monkey means nothing, I couldn't care less. That same taunt to an aboriginal is hurtful and racist. I believe that I am immune to racism because I have won the human lottery. Privileged white  males in particular struggle to appreciate the plight of those that have not won the human lottery. Adam Goodes has been very privileged in many areas but he carries a burden that I cannot fully understand. He has every right to stand up and call out racism and perform a dance at his workplace. I apologise for the hurt he felt against his heritage it was wrong, but he could be a dirty sniper on the field. 

White liberal syndrome. It’s real folks.

“This syndrome causes white liberals to expect less from blacks out of a desire to signal to others their awareness of racism ... and to believe that white people have no authority to talk about race issues. Bayard saw this as just another way that whites exploited blacks. Not for money or power in this case but for moral absolution. Or as he put it ‘Negros have been used and exploited in many ways by white Americans but it is only recently that they have been asked to satisfy the masochistic craving of disenchanted liberals for self-flaggelation and rejection’.”

Mmm. Uncomfortable reading for some of you I would imagine.

Published the New York Times no less by black race commentator Coleman Hughes. Wonderful writer I highly recommend him.

Watch.

 

Watch the video yet, gents? C'mon, it's only 6 minutes long.

"My activism did not spring from my being gay, or for that matter, from my being black. Rather it is rooted fundamentally in my Quaker upbringing and the values that were instilled in me by my grandparents who reared me. Those values are based on the concept of a single human family and the belief that all members of that family are equal. Adhering to those values has meant making a stand against injustice, to the best of my ability, wherever and whenever it occurs."

- Bayard Rustin, American human rights activist and senior advisor to Martin Luther King Jnr (who also incidentally criticized white so-called progressives).

That's real liberalism right there. All men are created equal type stuff. Judge by the content of character not by the colour of skin type stuff. Not this cheap watered down rubbish cowards propagate to feel better about themselves.

Matsuo Basho - 5

The Mob - 0 (Forfeited)

 

 

* Crickets *

 

14 hours ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

 

I assume Winmar was being a divisive, virtue-signalling, social justice warrior, provoking a crowd who were exercising their freedom of speech in the spirit of true blue fun and banter...

 

Pretty sure Winmar was a diver, y'know. Ducking his head for frees and all that.

51 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Watch the video yet, gents? C'mon, it's only 6 minutes long.

"My activism did not spring from my being gay, or for that matter, from my being black. Rather it is rooted fundamentally in my Quaker upbringing and the values that were instilled in me by my grandparents who reared me. Those values are based on the concept of a single human family and the belief that all members of that family are equal. Adhering to those values has meant making a stand against injustice, to the best of my ability, wherever and whenever it occurs."

- Bayard Rustin, American human rights activist and senior advisor to Martin Luther King Jnr (who also incidentally criticized white so-called progressives).

That's real liberalism right there. All men are created equal type stuff. Judge by the content of character not by the colour of skin type stuff. Not this cheap watered down rubbish cowards propagate to feel better about themselves.

Matsuo Basho - 5

The Mob - 0 (Forfeited)

 

 

* Crickets *

 

I like that you've bristled up a little here. Some emotion in one of your posts, I'm all for it. Let's see if we can coax out just a little bit of empathy now.

100% of the people you've chosen to lecture in this thread support Goodes. A skewed figure for someone who 'deplores racism'. 

One thing I'm sure (hope) we agree on is that there was an element of the abuse Goodes received was racially motivated. I think that the majority of it was/is. That is my opinion from the sample size that I have come in contact with. Meanwhile, you're hellbent on trying to make people prove what percentage that was (obviously not possible) in order to protect those the might've been lumped in with the bigots. 

You've tried to compare whites experiencing racism to minorities and in this case indigenous Australians experiencing racism. I find that completely misses the mark at best. 

All of the people that have put forward considered arguments in this thread disagree with you. You may not put me in that category, if that's the case, I'm not fussed. But have you considered that? Everyone is wrong and you're right? Even the person that seems to know you personally disagreed with you.

Maybe you're just more intelligent than everyone?

Edited June 20, 20195 yr by Melb16