Farewell Jesse Hogan

[Deemania since 56 6,640]

On 8/23/2018 at 5:28 PM, Billy said:

He’s 23yo for gods sake, who has gone through a hell of a lot, wait till he’s 25-26, with the way the young blokes are developing, he’ll be a superstar 

His potential reigns, even after the past two years in which (the rest of) our Club has struggled almost continuously to reliably deliver the ball with the adage of 'eyes up' that may have otherwise encouraged Hoges to lead into space, to bring the ball to ground goalward and to score a phenomenal amount of goals - or provide goal assists - in that timeframe and yet, he still has an impressive record of goals scored, remains a tremendous threat to opposing teams' backmen and has made his way all over the forward line to become more involved and more mobile as an attacking forward with exceptional forward line defensive pressure.

Now that the Dees in general are moving the ball with intent rather than ' bombing ' it to earn a statistic (aka the Jones' mantra), the team is more suited to enabling Hoges to be the forward he actually is - dynamic and prolific. Let's hope that these team qualities continue and further develop, and from that, Hoges' potential is assured and with it, the MFC success rate will escalate markedly. 

[beelzebub 23,377]

19 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Don't forget your question marks.

And I see you don't have a replacement for him.  Cheers.

Of course I wouldn't expect you to comprehend. You probably do the easy crosswords too.

We actually play more fluent football without him I'd argue.

Just like you the whole thing became too Hogan- centric.

Have you read Red Fox ? If not do so...it's about a team orientated bloke that emphasised team play. The abilities of individuals are to be welcomed...but if you suffer the folly of allowing that to dictate the team suffers 

He knew a thing or two.

Again WB...how are we travelling without Hogan ? Dare to answer ?

[Moonshadow 17,676]

38 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Don't forget your question marks.

And I see you don't have a replacement for him.  Cheers.

 

[old dee 23,792]

15 hours ago, Nasher said:

Unless Hogan asks to go, he won’t be traded. You can blow on about professional club and every player has a price and improve the list and blah blah blah, but at the end if the day, no club willingly parts with a player of his calibre. 

What if a better one was available?

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

3 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

 

I could reply with the same gif re: those who would consider trading him.  

[Moonshadow 17,676]

7 minutes ago, old dee said:

What if a better one was available?

 

OD how dare you be perfectly reasonable in only 7 words!

If Hogan was having 2nd thoughts and a trade with Freo could land us Cerra and pick 5 (or similar) and we could package up 5 and our 2nd rounder for Whitfield, Cogniglio or Shiel, I think we'd have to seriously consider it. Would it improve our list? Yes. Does it fill needs that we currently have? Yes. Is it win/win? Yes 

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

The trade Hogan debate is much like a trade Oliver debate. It’s ridiculous, but if a team (like Richmond) would give us Cotchin, Dusty and draft picks, we’d take it. 

 

People saying Wiedemans form proves the possibility that Hogan isn’t first selection, flat ridiculous. We have a 50+ goal forward vs at best a 20 odd goal forward. Has wiedeman held his own, yes, but that isn’t the question, plus I’d suggest all 3 of our keys can fit. 

 

Also Hogan in the backline is a silly suggestion, it removes most of his natural talents in my opinion, plus why would we bother when Lever (the best intercept marker in the competition) will come back. 

[old dee 23,792]

2 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

OD how dare you be perfectly reasonable in only 7 words!

If Hogan was having 2nd thoughts and a trade with Freo could land us Cerra and pick 5 (or similar) and we could package up 5 and our 2nd rounder for Whitfield, Cogniglio or Shiel, I think we'd have to seriously consider it. Would it improve our list? Yes. Does it fill needs that we currently have? Yes. Is it win/win? Yes 

Your problem is Mr Shadow you are too logical!

[Jibroni 5,004]

1 minute ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

The trade Hogan debate is much like a trade Oliver debate. It’s ridiculous, but if a team (like Richmond) would give us Cotchin, Dusty and draft picks, we’d take it. 

 

I think I have more chance of winning the lottery than the MFC being offered a trade such as this.

But I agree with most as this thread is just crazy. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

4 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

OD how dare you be perfectly reasonable in only 7 words!

If Hogan was having 2nd thoughts and a trade with Freo could land us Cerra and pick 5 (or similar) and we could package up 5 and our 2nd rounder for Whitfield, Cogniglio or Shiel, I think we'd have to seriously consider it. Would it improve our list? Yes. Does it fill needs that we currently have? Yes. Is it win/win? Yes 

I posted that same thing yesterday, Moonie.  I made it very clear that if he indicated that he wanted to go home then I'd expect the club to come up with a suitable trade to get it done.  I'd be disappointed in him leaving, but at the same time we would at least get something in return.

My point is that, outside of that, we shouldn't be considering trading him.  We don't need to trade him - our list is strong, we have good coverage across the ground and we have a young list that is maturing together.  Why we would trade him outside of a need to go home is what I don't understand.  We don't need to do it.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

4 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

OD how dare you be perfectly reasonable in only 7 words!

If Hogan was having 2nd thoughts and a trade with Freo could land us Cerra and pick 5 (or similar) and we could package up 5 and our 2nd rounder for Whitfield, Cogniglio or Shiel, I think we'd have to seriously consider it. Would it improve our list? Yes. Does it fill needs that we currently have? Yes. Is it win/win? Yes 

I’d argue it does not improve our list. Midfield depth is not our issue, based on talent I think we have the most stacked midfield in the competition. Sacrificing a key forward for a developing midfielder and an already proven midfielder is not what we need. 

 

there is nothing reasonable about the suggestion of trading Hogan, there is no logic to it unless he has asked for a trade. It’s honestly one of the most ridiculous list management suggestions since, well ever. 

[Dr.D 1,771]

17 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

The trade Hogan debate is much like a trade Oliver debate. It’s ridiculous, but if a team (like Richmond) would give us Cotchin, Dusty and draft picks, we’d take it. 

  

People saying Wiedemans form proves the possibility that Hogan isn’t first selection, flat ridiculous. We have a 50+ goal forward vs at best a 20 odd goal forward. Has wiedeman held his own, yes, but that isn’t the question, plus I’d suggest all 3 of our keys can fit. 

 

Also Hogan in the backline is a silly suggestion, it removes most of his natural talents in my opinion, plus why would we bother when Lever (the best intercept marker in the competition) will come back. 

I think you're missing the point and all people that mention he kicks 50 goals etc. are only mentioning half of the picture. Hogan's defensive pressure, 2nd efforts etc. can be disgraceful at times and his poor attitude on field can be a culture killer. Also, his kicking for goal lets us down quite a bit against the good teams. Ultimately, people can't deny that Melbourne has played with real spirit the last 2 weeks without Hogan. Losing Lever was a loss, losing Hogan wasn't a loss and was actually a gain and I called it early. You can't place a value on attitude, intensity and effort and hogan needs to really lift.

Edited August 28, 2018 by Dr.D

[jackaub 1,402]

4 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

I think you're missing the point and all people that mention he kicks 50 goals etc. are only mentioning half of the picture. Hogan's defensive pressure, 2nd efforts etc. can be disgraceful at times and his poor attitude on field can be a culture killer. Also, his kicking for goal lets us down quite a bit against the good teams. Ultimately, people can't deny that Melbourne has played with real spirit the last 2 weeks without Hogan. 

Thats the bit they are missing Good Dr

See above Goals analysis

Edited August 28, 2018 by jackaub

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

4 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

I think you're missing the point and all people that mention he kicks 50 goals etc. are only mentioning half of the picture. Hogan's defensive pressure, 2nd efforts etc. can be disgraceful at times and his poor attitude on field can be a culture killer. Also, his kicking for goal lets us down quite a bit against the good teams. Ultimately, people can't deny that Melbourne has played with real spirit the last 2 weeks without Hogan. 

But how we have played and Hogan missing is independent data. Setting up 6-6-6 has meant more 1 v 1 contests, which is a situation Hogan will thrive in. We’ve been lowering our eyes and hitting targets, which would help Hogan. 

 

We are are not playing better due to not having Hogan in the side, but rather structural changes made up the ground. 

 

We have also also played without Viney, so really we shouldn’t bring him in because the spirit is only due to 22 players on the field, not at all anything structural at all 

Edited August 28, 2018 by Mad_Melbourne

[jackaub 1,402]

4 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

But how we have played and Hogan missing is independent data. Setting up 6-6-6 has meant more 1 v 1 contests, which is a situation Hogan will thrive in. We’ve been lowering our eyes and hitting targets, which would help Hogan. 

 

We are are not playing better due to not having Hogan in the side, but rather structural changes made up the ground. 

 

We have also also played without Viney, so really we shouldn’t bring him in because the spirit is only due to 22 players on the field, not at all anything structural at all 

Maybe not its not broke at the moment is it.Hogans absence has been well and truely covered.

But anyhow we wont know if playing without Hogan is working or not due to the many other factors.

But it appears to be working.

[Dr.D 1,771]

8 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Thats the bit they are missing Good Dr

See above Goals analysis

Couldn't find it on the last 2 pages but all i know is that he has kicked 4 or 5 goals from 5 games against top 8 teams. So I don't care what analysis is provided. The reason richmond are the best team is because they have 22 guys cracking in. Hogan doesn't. 

[ManDee 7,153]

If nothing else playing well without Hogan will be good for Hogan. He is not the messiah and may have to rethink his attitude, perhaps he may even choose to chase and tackle and perhaps even try a second effort. I think he will stay but trading him would not be the end of the world.

[jackaub 1,402]

See Below Dr

Well I guess any half descent forward could have kicked  35 against GC -4,WB-4,FREO-2,SK-3,WB-5,

AD-5,CARL-1,GC-3,SK-3.

as against 

SYD-1,AD-1,GEE-1,PA- 0,CW-0,ESS-2,RICH-2,HAW-1,NM-1,GEE-3      Total12

[Dr.D 1,771]

19 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

But how we have played and Hogan missing is independent data. Setting up 6-6-6 has meant more 1 v 1 contests, which is a situation Hogan will thrive in. We’ve been lowering our eyes and hitting targets, which would help Hogan. 

 

We are are not playing better due to not having Hogan in the side, but rather structural changes made up the ground. 

 

We have also also played without Viney, so really we shouldn’t bring him in because the spirit is only due to 22 players on the field, not at all anything structural at all 

Just putting up an argument to fit your point. Melbourne had some great wins last year without Hogan also. It's not just this year.  Hogan's 1 on 1 contested work isn't anywhere near where it used to be. He falls to the ground too easily, plays for frees far too much and wrestles with players he doesn't need to. 

Mentioning Viney alongside Hogan is embarrassing. Viney gives 100% each week. Hogan fluffs around acting tough and whining and staging. Sure he kicks enough goals, due to our high inside 50s, but I'm sorry sometimes goals alone aren't enough. You need defensive pressure in this day and age. Just look at buddy franklin and the way he chases out of D50. or Josh kennedy. Hogan is often still whingeing when the ball is in his area and that's a disgrace.

I don't give too much credence to people's knowledge of footy on this board. I wanted to get rid of Watts 5 years ago and predicted that he wouldn't play well and that our pick 31 would be a better player. People like you probably wanted him to stay. I was the one wanting Frost and Harmes in the team from day dot. I was the first one to question Petracca's kicking when everyone else was still star struck by his draft position. I've got so many runs on the board. And yes, I would prefer to have guys like Hannan, Harmes, Fritsch etc. than anyone who doesn't give 100%.  One thing I got wrong is that I thought we would miss finals. The only thing i'm happy to be wrong about!

Edited August 28, 2018 by Dr.D

[Dr.D 1,771]

7 minutes ago, jackaub said:

See Below Dr

Well I guess any half descent forward could have kicked  35 against GC -4,WB-4,FREO-2,SK-3,WB-5,

AD-5,CARL-1,GC-3,SK-3.

as against 

SYD-1,AD-1,GEE-1,PA- 0,CW-0,ESS-2,RICH-2,HAW-1,NM-1,GEE-3      Total12

Are you even looking at those team. Gold coast twice, dogs, free, stkilda twice, carlton..? wow. I could kick a bag against some of those teams. Do it when it counts. Hogan turns to water when things get tough because he is mentally weak and thats why he has failed time and time again against the good teams. I have no personal reason to not like Hogan. I like a stack of melbourne players but one thing i can't stand is slackness and lack of work rate. 

[jackaub 1,402]

Agreed Dr that's was what I was trying to point out

[Dr.D 1,771]

11 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Agreed Dr that's was what I was trying to point out

oh. my bad! i feel like everyone is against my point of view but at the end of the day I didn't start this thread and there are clearly many people that are a bit over the hogan fanfare. 

[Neil Crompton 5,561]

19 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

I don't give too much credence to people's knowledge of footy on this board. I wanted to get rid of Watts 5 years ago and predicted that he wouldn't play well and that our pick 31 would be a better player. People like you probably wanted him to stay. I was the one wanting Frost and Harmes in the team from day dot. I was the first one to question Petracca's kicking when everyone else was still star struck by his draft position. I've got so many runs on the board. And yes, I would prefer to have guys like Hannan, Harmes, Fritsch etc. than anyone who doesn't give 100%.  One thing I got wrong is that I thought we would miss finals. The only thing i'm happy to be wrong about!

Wow! With runs on the board like that, our football department would be mad not to take you on as an adviser! Send them your CV

[Nasher 33,616]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

What if a better one was available?

 

If a better one was available it would only be for the same reason Hogan would be available: because they’ve asked to leave. In that case if we had convinced this hypothetical elite forward to leave their existing club and come to us, we would have the higher negotiating position and could bring them here without losing Hogan. I note we did not lose any key position defenders in our acquisition of Jake Lever.

[Dr.D 1,771]

8 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Wow! With runs on the board like that, our football department would be mad not to take you on as an adviser! Send them your CV

lol nah jason taylor and josh mahoney know what they are doing. It's funny how everyone thought we got ripped off by only getting pick 31 for watts. Looking back, Port adelaide got ripped off and we got pick 31 (Fritsch)