Was the win against West Coast rigged?

[daisycutter 29,695]

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

We are diametrically opposed on this issue ... I'm being quite honest when I say I almost always never notice the umpires,  any decisions they make or any aftermath.  My view is that the better team generally wins.

I watch the sport in a completely different way to most because my view is that the umpires are in a no-win situation in a sport that is un-umpirable.  So I switch off in compartmental way.

Try watching one game as I do - not a Demons game,  some other random game where you don't have a dog in the fight.  Not even a tip.  A game where you don't care who wins.  Ignore every umpiring decision and just watch the football.  Here's the thing,  we can do that with other sports but it's very hard to do it with footy.  But it can be done. 

Then you'll see my view as I see it - I already know and acknowledge your view - I've seen and heard it 1000's of times.  No disrespect meant there either.  You are one of many.

The above mght suit someone else Dappa because when we post here,  it's an open forum. 

i'd say you are showing plenty of disrespect there, macca

you base your whole rigid argument on your belief that the game is un-umpirable

this is patent rubbish and even if it was true what is wrong with saying that the umpiring (along with poorly written rules and afl interference changing the interpretation of rules etc) is sub-standard and demanding better outcomes.

the rules can be tightened up/improved, the interpretations can be stopped from constant in-season changes and the whole umpiring department can be overhauled and made more independent and above all more professional including a move to full time professional umpires (over time).

and just because you wouldn't be an umpire "for quids" is really quite irrelevant. I can think of thousands of jobs i wouldn't do " for quids" but plenty of others would and is not an excuse to accept mediocrity or demand something better

[titan_uranus 25,038]

8 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

To be fair, Oscar McDonald not being pinged for holding the ball after dropping an easy mark (fumbles and a lack of composure will be our downfall) then ducking into a tackle was a shocker.

There was a worse one IMO - VDB got caught early in the game (first quarter I think) near the boundary line, got given an eon to handpass it, should have been holding the ball. I think it led to a goal, too.

7 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

You should change your name to 'Clint Fumbles' soon.  It's all you ever talk about.

That's not fair, Wiseblood.

He also talks a lot about getting back behind the mark.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Just now, titan_uranus said:

He also talks a lot about getting back behind the mark.

Finally some balance.

[rpfc 28,726]

I have a three word rating for this thread...

[Macca 17,032]

24 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i'd say you are showing plenty of disrespect there, macca

you base your whole rigid argument on your belief that the game is un-umpirable

this is patent rubbish and even if it was true what is wrong with saying that the umpiring (along with poorly written rules and afl interference changing the interpretation of rules etc) is sub-standard and demanding better outcomes.

the rules can be tightened up/improved, the interpretations can be stopped from constant in-season changes and the whole umpiring department can be overhauled and made more independent and above all more professional including a move to full time professional umpires (over time).

and just because you wouldn't be an umpire "for quids" is really quite irrelevant. I can think of thousands of jobs i wouldn't do " for quids" but plenty of others would and is not an excuse to accept mediocrity or demand something better

I reckon the rigid argument is with those who view umpiring and umpires in an old-school way.  And that isn't directed at you so don't take offence.

My view is almost a solo one so I doubt whether you would have heard it before - not to this degree anyway.  And new views are often rejected or dismissed so as not to interfere with old-school thinking.

So if you are offended,  you shouldn't be.  If people here dislike or hate umpires, that's their choice.  I obviously have a different take on things - the other side of the argument that rarely gets heard or talked about.

@Bossdog  usually speaks on my behalf on these matters but he hasn't been here for a while - can't say I blame him.  I do 'like' his posts though.

But this type of argument about umpires has been going on in the same way for forever and a day.  It's never been any different and it will go on in the same way for another 5,  10,  20, 40 years hence.  Unless the sport changes in a dramatic way in order to make the game way way easier to umpire than it ever was.  You know,  like AFLX ?

Edited August 22, 2018 by Macca

[monoccular 17,568]

18 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

There was a worse one IMO - VDB got caught early in the game (first quarter I think) near the boundary line, got given an eon to handpass it, should have been holding the ball. I think it led to a goal, too.

That's not fair, Wiseblood.

He also talks a lot about getting back behind the mark.

You obviously failed to see VDB being legged without penalty (assuming this is the same incident) 

[daisycutter 29,695]

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

I reckon the rigid argument is with those who view umpiring and umpires in an old-school way.  And that isn't directed at you so don't take offence.

My view is almost a solo one so I doubt whether you would have heard it before - not to this degree anyway.  And new views are often rejected or dismissed so as not to interfere with old-school thinking.

So if you are offended,  you shouldn't be.  If people here dislike or hate umpires, that's their choice.  I obviously have a different take on things - the other side of the argument that rarely gets heard or talked about.

@Bossdog  usually speaks on my behalf on these matters but he hasn't been here for a while - can't say I blame him.  I do 'like' his posts though.

all you have said is that you think it is un-umpirable (repeatedly). No-one is arguing it is easy (it's not easy in many other sports either)

the rest is just verbiage

you are implying that nothing can be done and to just accept it

where are your suggestions to improve the state of umpiring, you seem to just say it is as good as it can be because it is un-umpirable

[Macca 17,032]

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

all you have said is that you think it is un-umpirable (repeatedly). No-one is arguing it is easy (it's not easy in many other sports either)

the rest is just verbiage

you are implying that nothing can be done and to just accept it

where are your suggestions to improve the state of umpiring, you seem to just say it is as good as it can be because it is un-umpirable

Because of the nature of the sport as it stands right now,  I don't believe the game can be umpired any better than it is being umpired right now.  Full time umpires might improve things a bit but if my estimation that 3 of 10 decisions are incorrect is correct,  maybe 15 of 20 right or 7.5 out of 10.  So not a great deal of difference.  But full-time umps might not make any difference at all.

And compared to just about any other sport,  that is a terrible strike-rate.  Thus, all the angst in our sport as opposed to most other sports.  Well,  that's the reaction that happens anyway.  But again,  I don't blame the umps.

A more open game would help but that seems light years away ... zero interchanges and 15 a side but lets face it,  that ain't gonna happen either. 

So in my opinion,  we're stuck with what we've got and not much will change.  You know dc,  I could have had a very similar conversation with you 20 years ago or even 40 years ago.  True dinks - I've always had the same attitude.

By the way,  getting 7 out of 10 decisions correct in footy is comparable to getting 9 out of 10 decisions correct in say,  a sport like basketball (more so the NBA)

In essence,  I haven't got a fix though ... not a feasible one anyway.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

33 minutes ago, monoccular said:

You obviously failed to see VDB being legged without penalty (assuming this is the same incident) 

This. Blatant trip but the umpire was too scared to call it coz the fans were screaming baaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll and would likely have jumped the fence, ice pipes in hand, ready to decapitate the bloke. 

[jnrmac 20,154]

This thread title is embarrassing. Mods can we please change it? Maybe 'questionable umpiring?'

Imagine the media quoting this garbage. We would look like the biggest bunch of idiots going around.

Let alone have the whole umpiring dept ensuring we get completely rogered this weekend

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

We are diametrically opposed on this issue ... I'm being quite honest when I say I almost always never notice the umpires,  any decisions they make or any aftermath.  My view is that the better team generally wins.

Try watching one game as I do - not a Demons game,  some other random game where you don't have a dog in the fight.  

Then you'll see my view as I see it - I already know and acknowledge your view - I've seen and heard it 1000's of times. 

The above mght suit someone else Dappa because when we post here,  it's an open forum. 

- We sure are. And that's great you have that view. I won't say I'm envious, but I certainly respect that view.

- I do watch them, mate. Almost all of them (you know how much fantasy footy I play).

- You're wrong. I DON'T see it as you see it. I've soaked in all the data the same way you have, and I've come to a DIFFERENT conclusion. The more "other" games I watch, the more I see there are variances in umpiring you're not accounting for, for some reason. And yes, I've heard your view as well (maybe not 1000s of times, I'll grant you that)... You're not Robinson Crusoe. And while I respect your view, I think you're wrong. TRY not to crucify me for it, or better yet, try to assume it's possible I've CONSIDERED my view, and haven't made it ad-hoc like seemingly everyone else. You should know better than to think I've come to my conclusions because of a lack of forethought, or a lack of experience.

- Absolutely. Like I've said over and over. I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong. I'm just saying we don't agree. Shall we leave it at that?

[daisycutter 29,695]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

Because of the nature of the sport as it stands right now,  I don't believe the game can be umpired any better than it is being umpired right now.  Full time umpires might improve things a bit but if my estimation that 3 of 10 decisions are incorrect is correct,  maybe 15 of 20 right or 7.5 out of 10.  So not a great deal of difference.  But full-time umps might not make any difference at all.

And compared to just about any other sport,  that is a terrible strike-rate.  Thus, all the angst in our sport as opposed to most other sports.  Well,  that's the reaction that happens anyway.  But again,  I don't blame the umps.

A more open game would help but that seems light years away ... zero interchanges and 15 a side but lets face it,  that ain't gonna happen either. 

So in my opinion,  we're stuck with what we've got and not much will change.  You know dc,  I could have had a very similar conversation with you 20 years ago or even 40 years ago.  True dinks - I've always had the same attitude.

By the way,  getting 7 out of 10 decisions correct in footy is comparable to getting 9 out of 10 decisions correct in say,  a sport like basketball (more so the NBA)

In essence,  I haven't got a fix though ... not a feasible one anyway.

you're too defeatist for me, macca

reminds me of all the naysayers who said we could never convince the afl to change their stance on the white away strips. well we did and believe me there will be big changes in the umpiring department too. there has to be.  it may take years but it will improve.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,903]

After 9 pages, I'm still not sure whether Joeboy's OP was intended to be taken seriously or whether he was just pulling our collective legs.

[red&blue1982 255]

3 hours ago, jnrmac said:

This thread title is embarrassing. Mods can we please change it? Maybe 'questionable umpiring?'

Imagine the media quoting this garbage. We would look like the biggest bunch of idiots going around.

Let alone have the whole umpiring dept ensuring we get completely rogered this weekend

Why is it embarrassing you? It's just a title to create discussion.

Edited August 22, 2018 by red&blue1982

[Macca 17,032]

8 hours ago, daisycutter said:

you're too defeatist for me, macca

reminds me of all the naysayers who said we could never convince the afl to change their stance on the white away strips. well we did and believe me there will be big changes in the umpiring department too. there has to be.  it may take years but it will improve.

On the evidence to date,  nothing much has changed nor do I believe anything will change ... and yours and mine opinions won't matter a jot anyway.  Not now,  not ever.

We are mere onlookers who pass comment ... but I maintain we should hold the umpires in high regard and there should be a great level of respect shown towards umpires.

At local level you have to behave yourself ... my 50+ seasons of sport taught me that.  Abuse an umpire and you'll get reported and suspended.  Become a serial offender and you'll probably get banned for life.  So as an onlooker,  my attitude mirrors my playing days.

That is all I've got to say on the matter.  If you or others disagree,  so be it.

[daisycutter 29,695]

47 minutes ago, Macca said:

On the evidence to date,  nothing much has changed nor do I believe anything will change ... and yours and mine opinions won't matter a jot anyway.  Not now,  not ever.

We are mere onlookers who pass comment ... but I maintain we should hold the umpires in high regard and there should be a great level of respect shown towards umpires.

At local level you have to behave yourself ... my 50+ seasons of sport taught me that.  Abuse an umpire and you'll get reported and suspended.  Become a serial offender and you'll probably get banned for life.  So as an onlooker,  my attitude mirrors my playing days.

That is all I've got to say on the matter.  If you or others disagree,  so be it.

????

boy, you sure know how to shift the goalposts

[Macca 17,032]

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

????

boy, you sure know how to shift the goalposts

No ... it is all connected from my point of view and is therefore a very complex argument.

You just don't like my view and I don't like your view.  Let's leave it that.

[daisycutter 29,695]

10 minutes ago, Macca said:

No ... it is all connected from my point of view and is therefore a very complex argument.

You just don't like my view and I don't like your view.  Let's leave it that.

my view is simply that the standard of umpiring is below what i expect of such a professional sport and needs improvements

it's not all the umpires fault per se, but the whole system from the afl's rules administration, the afl's week to week interference with umpiring, the umpiring dept administration and the fact we have part time umpires in a full-time professional multi billion dollar industry

we can do better and we should always strive to do better, it's not that hard to understand 

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by daisycutter

[Macca 17,032]

34 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

my view is simply that the standard of umpiring is below what i expect of such a professional sport and needs improvements

it's not all the umpires fault per se, but the whole system from the afl's rules administration, the afl's week to week interference with umpiring, the umpiring dept administration and the fact we have part time umpires in a full-time professional multi billion dollar industry

we can do better and we should always strive to do better, it's not that hard to understand 

 

Well I will talk to you in 5 years time and we'll see if anything has changed.

And if you want change to happen you are probably going to have to do sonething about it yourself.  Don't ask me how to go about doing that.  Maybe send off an email to AFL HQ?

I don't necessarily disagree with your points on how things can be improved but my belief is that the custodians of the sport are incompetent so I am not holding my breath. 

There is cause & effect or we can blame the A-end of a problem.

Edited August 22, 2018 by Macca

[jnrmac 20,154]

9 hours ago, red&blue1982 said:

Why is it embarrassing you? It's just a title to create discussion.

Talk to me after the weekend when we get shafted by umpiring.

[sue 9,126]

16 hours ago, red&blue1982 said:

Why is it embarrassing you? It's just a title to create discussion.

While I don't care 1.5 hoots if this thread is quoted as proof on the WCE forums that they were done in, I can see that some might find that embarrassing. 

Maybe embarrassing is the wrong word.  Perhaps counter-productive is the real worry.  If it seeps out into the AFL media/community it may well have an effect on umpiring in the near future.  The umps are human (though I'm not sure about their AFL bosses who may influence them.) 

Anyway, surely we don't have to resort to click-bait titles to 'create discussion'.

[red&blue1982 255]

48 minutes ago, sue said:

While I don't care 1.5 hoots if this thread is quoted as proof on the WCE forums that they were done in, I can see that some might find that embarrassing. 

Maybe embarrassing is the wrong word.  Perhaps counter-productive is the real worry.  If it seeps out into the AFL media/community it may well have an effect on umpiring in the near future.  The umps are human (though I'm not sure about their AFL bosses who may influence them.) 

Anyway, surely we don't have to resort to click-bait titles to 'create discussion'.

I'm not sure what you mean by counter-productive?

To really know if the umpires were consciously favoring us on the the weekend, or any other match, I'd expect you'd have to do some serious investigative work.

I know the timing of the discussion seems to negate the celebration of a great win, but it's just a discussion about match fixing. I'd say almost everyone who watched that game would of thought we were the better team and deserved to win.

 

[davo 209]

On 8/21/2018 at 8:10 AM, joeboy said:

I’ve watched the replay 3 times and still can’t comprehend how we were awarded frees, or at least not penalized for many blatant errors, despite the howls of abuse throughout the game from an overwhelmingly anti Melbourne crowd.

The non payment of a free kick against O.Mac ,when he took on the tackler by dropping his head into an oncoming chest, was just one of  many mind boggling decisions surprisingly in our favour.

In my conspiracy theory, the AFL contrived a feel good story ending

You are a frickin imbecile 

[red&blue1982 255]

7 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Talk to me after the weekend when we get shafted by umpiring.

Are you seriously going to seal your lips because you think it'll have an effect on the umpiring of our next match?