POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 15

[waynewussell 6,237]

With Tyson, its not about a player finding pace that he never had... its about a player finding form that he did have, consistently... for a significant period of time.

[Scoop Junior 3,513]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

While our backline definitely has issues we lost this game through the middle of the ground. 

St Kilda went to school on our QB game and used run and overlap in a swarm once they gained possession.  

Until we can defend through the middle of the ground we won't get anywhere. 

But where I'm more positive than most is that aspects of our game are top notch.  And they're aspects that are not easy to get right.  Contested possession, clearance work and the ability to get repeat F50 entries are areas all clubs aspire to excel in, but it's not easy to achieve. 

I do think we should be able to develop far better defensive structures through the middle of the ground. 

But we're running out of time.  Clearly, Goodwin takes the blame for this, but I trust he can turn it around.

Yep I think you make a really good point ProDee about what we're doing right, which is often overlooked when we have such a disappointing loss.

Our ability to win the inside ball and get enough supply is up there with the best in the competition. So we're clearly being well developed in that part of the game.

But definitely some tinkering needs to be made in how we set up defensively when the opposition gain possession in and around our forward 50m, especially on wide grounds like the MCG. St Kilda's ability to move the ball up the ground time and time again without pressure and isolate 1v1s or 2v2s in its forward 50 was an absolute joke. And it has happened enough times over the last two years to be cause for concern.

In my view we would have comfortably beaten Geelong and St Kilda if we could've defended their rebound better. Geelong went at 66% for scores per inside 50 (off the charts) and St Kilda at 58% (ridiculous for a bottom three side). Win those games and we would be sitting second at 10-4, with the footy public lauding what we're doing. Arguably we should've also beaten Port taking us equal top.

It shows two things - 1) this is a game of really fine margins and 2) we are doing a lot of things right.

Even as we stand here at Round 15, we are effectively only improved defensive transition off being a top 4 side.

Edited July 2, 2018 by Scoop Junior

[waynewussell 6,237]

Tyson is out of form... how long this will be tolerated is difficult to predict... the reasons may be many and diverse. He will play his 100th in the next few weeks, a profile that fits comfortably with this young team. Don't forget that he averaged 25 disposals a game throughout 2016 & 2017... Hardly the makings of a 'no future at MFC' is it?

[SFebes 4,884]

Players that are out of form are being played out of position, is it their fault or the coaches?

Hannan at FF

Hogan as a mid

ANB, I don't even know what his role is apart from run

Tyson on a wing

 

[Lord John 26]

After Sunday's effort I fear the season is is in serious danger becoming a train wreck and the only light at the end of the tunnel is a freight train bringing  another missed

opportunity of finals footy. Sadly it looks like another repeat of last year's fade. Not enough respect was paid to a team that had won only two games and some puzzling selections contributed to a very disappointing effort. As a long time supporter I left the ground thinking what's the point of wasting time being subjected to this frustrating torture. I think the unhappy fact is we are  still not good enough. No doubt I'll get over it but at he moment the future doesn't seem to offer much hope!

[Dr. Gonzo 24,270]

2 hours ago, waynewussell said:

Tyson finished?? Just turned 25... I don't think so. Playing out of position, probably... down on confidence, definitely... injured... maybe, but finished? 

His career isn't finished but my hope in him being anything more than depth is. He is slow, lazy, zero awareness, constant turnover and doesn't kick enough goals. He'll play til he's 30 I just hope it's not with Melbourne. Maybe Carlton would like him, they seem to bank as many GWS rejects as they can get their hands on.

[DeeWiz 296]

Yet again umpiring decisions let us down, but I don't see umpiring as big of a problem as last week. Last week I thought we got robbed as we played well enough (in fact much better than this week) but didn't get rewarded with 4 points due to poor umpiring decisions. This week we only have ourselves to blame as we played poorly which probably left ourselves open to poor umpiring in any case. Losing to a team with 2 wins on the board should NEVER be the umpires fault.

How does one score 117 points and still lose a match? Our attack is potent but there are still issues prevalent as we continuously bombed in long balls which either got easily picked off or we had 2-3 players fly for it with no crumbing forwards. A lot of times this allowed Saints to settle and transition end to end and kill us (as well as insane turnovers and hospital handballs).

Far from the slick inside 50 entries we managed to find in our run of 6 wins. Not sure if its an instruction from the coaching team, or whether the players actually don't have the ability to look for the short pass into the 50. Hogan is wasted playing further down the field. In the 4th quarter when Goody decided to let Hogan loose deep into our forward line he was causing a bit of a headache for the Saints. Why are we waiting until the 4th quarter when we're on the ropes to make these changes?

Why does Goody persist with wasting our best mids on tagging the oppo? Seems like a very negative way to go to me. Especially when we have one of the best rucks in the comp and a steady supply why would we possibly want to waste an inside mid on tagging? We were losing clearances all day until the 4th quarter when Viney was released from tagging and the Saints were really struggling to deal with it. This whole tagging tactic has been a key factor in every one of our losses so far, and hasn't worked, so why keep using it?

Finally, we concede 119 points to a team that has only won 2 games all year and struggle to average 70 odd points a game. If it wasn't for the late surge we were comprehensively embarrassed by a bunch of cellar dwellers. Our record on the MCG this season says all you need to know about our structure. There seems to be a pattern here from Goody. I genuinely think he is crazy, just loves to keep repeating the same thing over and over again even when it doesn't work for certain scenarios. It's like banging your head against a wall over and over again. Why play such a high forward press and expose our backline (especially an inexperienced backline).

You would think after the first few times the Saints go end to end and goal we would react to that. Well Goody's idea of a reaction is throwing Fritsch in defence and keeping the same high press (insanity). All they had to do was kick sideways, spread and away they went. We have no adaptability to game conditions, and smells of pure arrogance and disrespect for the Saints. Goody, for a guy that repeats the mantra "we respect our opposition" clearly doesn't practice what he preaches.

Then Goody blames it on the players not having qualities or habits ingrained in them. No Goody, this is not how it works. Maybe take some responsibility for your poor game plan and decisions first of all. The coach is meant to be a leader, not hanging out his troops to dry. I hate to single out any of our boys for the loss because they probably are made to look worse players than they are due to poor coaching decisions and structures allowing the opposition to play the way they do. Yesterday was a good example.

[Elegt 872]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

His career isn't finished but my hope in him being anything more than depth is. He is slow, lazy, zero awareness, constant turnover and doesn't kick enough goals. He'll play til he's 30 I just hope it's not with Melbourne. Maybe Carlton would like him, they seem to bank as many GWS rejects as they can get their hands on.

I don't understand why people consider Tyson trade bait.  do you really think other afl clubs will want him lol. gws got rid of him for a reason and Melbourne got conned hard.

[DeleteUser 638]

59 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Gee I was disapointed in Viney in the first half. I hold him in the highest of regard and I know he was tagging but imo he needs to mature and realise how the game is going.  Have the power to make changes during the game or challenge Goody prior to the game.  He should not be tagging, he is our most influential player and almost won us the game in the last quarter.

how many touched in the first Quater, 2?

I blame his hairdo

It is a fair dinkum shocker

Something my mum would have majicked out of a bowl in the early 80s.

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

15 minutes ago, DeeWiz said:

Yet again umpiring decisions let us down, but I don't see umpiring as big of a problem as last week. Last week I thought we got robbed as we played well enough (in fact much better than this week) but didn't get rewarded with 4 points due to poor umpiring decisions. This week we only have ourselves to blame as we played poorly which probably left ourselves open to poor umpiring in any case. Losing to a team with 2 wins on the board should NEVER be the umpires fault.

How does one score 117 points and still lose a match? Our attack is potent but there are still issues prevalent as we continuously bombed in long balls which either got easily picked off or we had 2-3 players fly for it with no crumbing forwards. A lot of times this allowed Saints to settle and transition end to end and kill us (as well as insane turnovers and hospital handballs).

Far from the slick inside 50 entries we managed to find in our run of 6 wins. Not sure if its an instruction from the coaching team, or whether the players actually don't have the ability to look for the short pass into the 50. Hogan is wasted playing further down the field. In the 4th quarter when Goody decided to let Hogan loose deep into our forward line he was causing a bit of a headache for the Saints. Why are we waiting until the 4th quarter when we're on the ropes to make these changes?

Why does Goody persist with wasting our best mids on tagging the oppo? Seems like a very negative way to go to me. Especially when we have one of the best rucks in the comp and a steady supply why would we possibly want to waste an inside mid on tagging? We were losing clearances all day until the 4th quarter when Viney was released from tagging and the Saints were really struggling to deal with it. This whole tagging tactic has been a key factor in every one of our losses so far, and hasn't worked, so why keep using it?

Finally, we concede 119 points to a team that has only won 2 games all year and struggle to average 70 odd points a game. If it wasn't for the late surge we were comprehensively embarrassed by a bunch of cellar dwellers. Our record on the MCG this season says all you need to know about our structure. There seems to be a pattern here from Goody. I genuinely think he is crazy, just loves to keep repeating the same thing over and over again even when it doesn't work for certain scenarios. It's like banging your head against a wall over and over again. Why play such a high forward press and expose our backline (especially an inexperienced backline).

You would think after the first few times the Saints go end to end and goal we would react to that. Well Goody's idea of a reaction is throwing Fritsch in defence and keeping the same high press (insanity). All they had to do was kick sideways, spread and away they went. We have no adaptability to game conditions, and smells of pure arrogance and disrespect for the Saints. Goody, for a guy that repeats the mantra "we respect our opposition" clearly doesn't practice what he preaches.

Then Goody blames it on the players not having qualities or habits ingrained in them. No Goody, this is not how it works. Maybe take some responsibility for your poor game plan and decisions first of all. The coach is meant to be a leader, not hanging out his troops to dry. I hate to single out any of our boys for the loss because they probably are made to look worse players than they are due to poor coaching decisions and structures allowing the opposition to play the way they do. Yesterday was a good example.

Goody rarely hangs players out to dry, if ever.  While the gameplan needs work, the players also need to learn to do the tough stuff consistently, and that includes defensive efforts.  Goody can have the best game plan in the world, but if the players don't have the fortitude to enforce it, then there is little he can do.

[Soidee 1,496]

Yep general feeling of most!  I don’t know anymore of how things will turn around.

yes we are no longer cellar dwellers however, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect a finals appearance of a club that has not gone into September since 2006.

every word possible has been aired on this site in frustration, and footy ups is a rarity.  Six wins on the trot had us all in rare atmosphere, then we go and trot out a lousy performance against a much poorer team on the weekend.

It’s all been said!  Those of us who are footy tragics just don’t get it!  I pay premium membership year in year out, and still the club falls away.  Going by to the G is no longer happy and I always expect a loss now.  

Blah blah blah.....

[Wiseblood 24,637]

8 minutes ago, Soidee said:

Yep general feeling of most!  I don’t know anymore of how things will turn around.

Most would have said this after the loss to Richmond earlier in the year. I get how most are feeling, but it only takes one win to turn things back to the right direction. 

[DeleteUser 638]

44 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Goody rarely hangs players out to dry, if ever.  While the gameplan needs work, the players also need to learn to do the tough stuff consistently, and that includes defensive efforts.  Goody can have the best game plan in the world, but if the players don't have the fortitude to enforce it, then there is little he can do.

Good points until the last line:

He can a) drag players mid game to set examples and rip into them and b) summarily drop players

In my view some need to summarily put in stocks but I get it's not the Middle Ages anymore (much to my chagrin sometimes)

So, who are the slackers who aren't doing the hard yards who we can drop. Someone mentioned Brayshaw. Petracca. (I am not saying they're culprits but have variously popped up)

[DeeWiz 296]

43 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Goody rarely hangs players out to dry, if ever.  While the gameplan needs work, the players also need to learn to do the tough stuff consistently, and that includes defensive efforts.  Goody can have the best game plan in the world, but if the players don't have the fortitude to enforce it, then there is little he can do.

Fair comment and I should clarify. You are correct as he doesn't go as far as singling out players (unlike us rabid fans here!) which I appreciate. My thought specifically was that it's a little poor to say that his troops (collectively as a unit) couldn't execute his version of reality. Maybe a little adjustment to play to our strengths is required more than anything. I still have faith that we can steady the ship. Whether or not it happens is yet to be seen.

[bobby1554 1,261]

22 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Most would have said this after the loss to Richmond earlier in the year. I get how most are feeling, but it only takes one win to turn things back to the right direction. 

True, just have to look at St Kilda to see that. Basket case before they beat the Suns.

[WERRIDEE 5,503]

20 minutes ago, bobby1554 said:

True, just have to look at St Kilda to see that. Basket case before they beat the Suns.

St.Kilda are a basket case. We lost to a basket case that should be remembered make no mistake we are a joke ATM, but it can turn around and it better turn around fast because our season is almost over.

[Redleg 41,405]

17 hours ago, Jaded said:

then I will come here after a loss and respectfully tell you and your salt lamp to get stuffed. 

 

What is a salt lamp?

[Redleg 41,405]

7 hours ago, Nasher said:

 The opinion of most others is water off a duck’s back, don’t worry!

That is a pretty poor post from you. I expect better. BTW am I in the "most others "category? Just wondering.

[SFebes 4,884]

7 hours ago, Nasher said:

I gave Jaded a reply because I’m a fan, I respect her views and we’ve known each other on here for a long time. The opinion of most others is water off a duck’s back, don’t worry!

Nasher with all due respect, you've turned into one of the few who seems more interested in potting others opinions. Would be appreciated to hear some thoughts from you for a change on where we are going right or wrong as a football club/team. You used to, but hardly these days?

[Redleg 41,405]

Jack Steele was on SEN today and said that they saw how we had been beaten by the Pies and Port. They knew if they used their pace and players worked hard to create overlap, they would beat us. They did and they did. He found it pretty simple as to what they had to do.

My question is, what did our coaching panel do to counter what other sides and presumably us as well knew, as to how we can be beaten.

All I can see, is that we actually made it harder for us to win, by going even taller and slower.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

7 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Jack Steele was on SEN today and said that they saw how we had been beaten by the Pies and Port. They knew if they used their pace and players worked hard to create overlap, they would beat us. They did and they did. He found it pretty simple as to what they had to do.

My question is, what did our coaching panel do to counter what other sides and presumably us as well knew, as to how we can be beaten.

All I can see, is that we actually made it harder for us to win, by going even taller and slower.

The same thing happened last season.  It took us until the off season to do anything about it, but now we're in the same position again.  Have we learned anything from the previous 12 months?  Selection will tell us plenty on Thursday night.

[chookrat 4,267]

3 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Jack Steele was on SEN today and said that they saw how we had been beaten by the Pies and Port. They knew if they used their pace and players worked hard to create overlap, they would beat us. They did and they did. He found it pretty simple as to what they had to do.

My question is, what did our coaching panel do to counter what other sides and presumably us as well knew, as to how we can be beaten.

All I can see, is that we actually made it harder for us to win, by going even taller and slower.

Goodwin addressed this post match explaining our defensive running was poor.  It is less about our players not having enough pace and more to do with us being slow to react when they  win the ball or the ball break our press.

[SFebes 4,884]

At least we won the AFLX premiership.

[beelzebub 23,382]

3 minutes ago, chookrat said:

Goodwin addressed this post match explaining our defensive running was poor.  It is less about our players not having enough pace and more to do with us being slow to react when they  win the ball or the ball break our press.

Not a lot of gain to be had reacting quickly if the other side can run quicker.

It just strikes me a lot of what Herr Goodwin utters doesn't gel with the reality.

[DeeZee 7,445]

27 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Jack Steele was on SEN today and said that they saw how we had been beaten by the Pies and Port. They knew if they used their pace and players worked hard to create overlap, they would beat us. They did and they did. He found it pretty simple as to what they had to do.

My question is, what did our coaching panel do to counter what other sides and presumably us as well knew, as to how we can be beaten.

All I can see, is that we actually made it harder for us to win, by going even taller and slower.

This is exactly what said in one of my previous posts.

The fact that St Kilda used the same tactic as collingwood and by the time Goodwin changed anything it was too late in the last quarter, where we out scored them.

What he did was completely open up our forward line so we had more players up the ground to pressure them and then run like mad into the 50 when we got it.

I could see what the Saints were doing in the first quarter , but Goody didn’t change till the last.

Edited July 2, 2018 by DeeZee