POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 9

[Dr. Gonzo 24,206]

7 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I was mainly referring to their 13 scoring shots in the first quarter.  mostly gettable shots, they could have easily scored 9 goals and be up by 40 pts plus

They did that last year too and we reeled them back in. Games are played over 4 quarters.

[Sir Why You Little 37,016]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

1 point loss to Geelong, 3 point loss to the Bulldogs, 5 point loss to Freo, absolutely demolished the undefeated Crows.

Yeah, a rabble 

At 0-6 they were

stop making excuses for a game once we should have won. 

It's all above the shoulders. 16 losses against a club nobody teally wants. 

We had loads of chances to win yesterday "But running towards goal we handball sideways to a stationary player..."

why?

we were doing that when Neeld was in charge, are these players over coached so that all natural instincts are quashed?

or is it just an MFC thing....

[HBDee 361]

To those that said Jones was useless yesterday and said he is past it and one even suggesting he be relinquished of the captaincy, hang your heads. He was one of our better players yesterday and has been for probably, lets say ten years! Spuds.

Watts whilst not his best game, did some good things and fairly starved of opportunity. I'm the first to get on his back but can't give him too much grief apart from a couple of soft efforts, again he had some mates.

The umpiring whilst they missed and gave few shockers, there were arguably a few that should've been paid to North for us dropping the ball or incorrect disposal as well. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by HBDee

[SFebes 4,884]

5 minutes ago, HBDee said:

To those that said Jones was useless yesterday and said he is past it and one even suggesting he be relinquished of the captaincy, hang your heads. He was one of our better players yesterday and has been for probably, lets say ten years! Spuds.

Watts whilst not his best game, did some good things and fairly starved of opportunity. I'm the first to get on his back but can't give him too much grief apart from a couple of soft efforts, again he had some mates.

The umpiring whilst they missed and gave few shockers, there were arguably a few that should've been paid to North for us dropping the ball or incorrect disposal as well. 

I think your eyes must be painted on!

[HBDee 361]

1 minute ago, SFebey said:

I think your eyes must be painted on!

Maybe both eyes were open instead of just one.......

[Chris 2,892]

11 minutes ago, HBDee said:

To those that said Jones was useless yesterday and said he is past it and one even suggesting he be relinquished of the captaincy, hang your heads. He was one of our better players yesterday and has been for probably, lets say ten years! Spuds.

Watts whilst not his best game, did some good things and fairly starved of opportunity. I'm the first to get on his back but can't give him too much grief apart from a couple of soft efforts, again he had some mates.

The umpiring whilst they missed and gave few shockers, there were arguably a few that should've been paid to North for us dropping the ball or incorrect disposal as well. 

You are being very generous to the umpires. They missed plenty of obvious frees to us, I saw four clear trips, numerous holding the balls, Bernie getting punched, Buggs 50, Salem being tackled without the ball, and others. They also paid a few stinkers the other way, Frost's holding which cost us a goal, the DOOB on Hibberd, Salam giving away a free for too high while being tackled without the ball, etc etc. 

Yes a few weren't paid to them that should have been but a lot of 50/50 decisions went to them and very few if any went to us. Marry that with those mentioned above and the umps were deplorable and one sided. 

[beelzebub 23,329]

1 minute ago, Chris said:

You are being very generous to the umpires. They missed plenty of obvious frees to us, I saw four clear trips, numerous holding the balls, Bernie getting punched, Buggs 50, Salem being tackled without the ball, and others. They also paid a few stinkers the other way, Frost's holding which cost us a goal, the DOOB on Hibberd, Salam giving away a free for too high while being tackled without the ball, etc etc. 

Yes a few weren't paid to them that should have been but a lot of 50/50 decisions went to them and very few if any went to us. Marry that with those mentioned above and the umps were deplorable and one sided. 

You never want to go down the path of saying the umps cost us a game but I'm standing at the gate , it's open ..... 

[Macca 16,958]

Hard to win games when we have 3 rotating ruckmen (Pedersen, Watts & T-Mac) who clearly aren't up to the task and it's also hard to win games when most of our forwards can't do the basics properly (Kent,  Weideman, Watts, Garlett,  Bugg) When that happens in conjunction, a loss is almost certainly forthcoming.

And we'll probably go in with the same sort of ruck & forward set-up next week.

It's a season where games are decided 'On the day' ... we're not the only team with consistency issues.  About the only team who is consistent is Brisbane.  Every other team is dropping games they should win and winning games against the odds. 

How we fare next week is dependent on which Gold Coast team turns up ... ditto for the QB clash against Collingwood. 

The sooner we get a ruckman back, the better.  The same can be said for Hogan.

 

 

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

3 hours ago, Demon77 said:

Soidee and myself mentioned this earlier in the thread, that happened right in front of me and I was in total disbelief that a man built like that wouldn't take one for the team. It was a pivotal moment for mine. Most on here have great views on the game but in reality, to allow North 13 scoring shots in the first quarter was probably where we lost the game. Our boys worked so hard to get back as they have all year and that leaves no margin for error so I expect mistakes by foot or hand as the risk is higher. Don't forget, we trailed the Crows by 28 and everything came off that night, yesterday it didn't.

I love getting up and shouting at opposition players who shirk it, first time I have jumped out of my seat and yelled out at one of ours....it was disgusting 

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

27 minutes ago, Macca said:

Hard to win games when we have 3 rotating ruckmen (Pedersen, Watts & T-Mac) who clearly aren't up to the task and it's also hard to win games when most of our forwards can't do the basics properly (Kent,  Weideman, Watts, Garlett,  Bugg) When that happens in conjunction, a loss is almost certainly forthcoming.

And we'll probably go in with the same sort of ruck & forward set-up next week.

It's a season where games are decided 'On the day' ... we're not the only team with consistency issues.  About the only team who is consistent is Brisbane.  Every other team is dropping games they should win and winning games against the odds. 

How we fare next week is dependent on which Gold Coast team turns up ... ditto for the QB clash against Collingwood. 

The sooner we get a ruckman back, the better.  The same can be said for Hogan.

 

 

We dont have ruck options when our No 1 and No 2 are out injured, so of course we'll go in with a similar setup, we dont have a choice. We still won the clearances 39-34 and obviously Goodwin has midfield strategies to address our lack of a ruckman.  

[Macca 16,958]

1 minute ago, Travis16 said:

We dont have ruck options when our No 1 and No 2 are out injured, so of course we'll go in with a similar setup, we dont have a choice. We still won the clearances 39-34 and obviously Goodwin has midfield strategies to address our lack of a ruckman.  

Forget those clearances numbers that you see Trav ... we got smashed out of the middle when the game was up for grabs in the 3rd quarter.  And I'm talking about clean clearances that our eyes can see.  I was keeping tabs and it was 6 to 1 for that 3rd quarter (clean clearances)

And many of our 1st half clean clearances were stifled across our half forward line due to our forwards not presenting or playing from behind.  North on the other hand used the ball to far greater effect with their clearances.

Goldstein was clearly the difference where as last week, Pyke couldn't turn a huge advantage in the ruck to his own advantage.  Can you imagine how we'd be reacting if Gawn got 74 tapouts and we got trounced?  This place would melt down.

[beelzebub 23,329]

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

Forget those clearances numbers that you see Trav ... we got smashed out of the middle when the game was up for grabs in the 3rd quarter.  And I'm talking about clean clearances that our eyes can see.  I was keeping tabs and it was 6 to 1 for that 3rd quarter (clean clearances)

And many of our 1st half clean clearances were stifled across our half forward line due to our forwards not presenting or playing from behind.  North on the other hand used the ball to far greater effect with their clearances.

Goldstein was clearly the difference where as last week, Pyke couldn't turn a huge advantage in the ruck to his own advantage.  Can you imagine how we'd be reacting if Gawn got 74 tapouts and we got trounced?  This place would melt down.

Ahh, someone using eyes and not stats. Welcome

Coming out of the guts...often in a haphazard ( oooh nearly mucked that one too ) we encountered a wall. Thing is WE built it, effectively, by having a crap setup with hardly a presentation !!

When we limit the handball rubbish and get a kick out to a leading fwd we look like a completely different outfit.

[Adam The God 30,215]

5 hours ago, jnrmac said:

We still leak goals. Our defence plays a man down with Oscar.

Oscar was ordinary yesterday, but our midfield was a lot more ordinary than any of our backs.

They might be able to be applauded for their ability to go close in the clearances, but the lack of two-way running from our mids was staggering for the most part yesterday. North killed us on the spread and they're not a quick side. They were just more switched on.

When the ball is coming down so easily from half back and out of the middle, our defenders have very little chance. Particularly, being undersized. But undersized isn't the problem. That would be to gloss over the deficiencies in the mids' performance yesterday.

I recall vividly a play during the third term where North's transition was under 14's training drill stuff. We failed to cover space. We failed to chase our opponents. We failed to tackle and get body on our opponents. It was probably our worst play for the year. That said it all. I can't recall if North kicked a goal from that play, but they certainly scored. It was straight down the corridor. It wasn't clever use of space or the angles, or clever ball use. It was just our guys refusing to work. Unforgivable. 

[Macca 16,958]

3 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Ahh, someone using eyes and not stats. Welcome

Coming out of the guts...often in a haphazard ( oooh nearly mucked that one too ) we encountered a wall. Thing is WE built it, effectively, by having a crap setup with hardly a presentation !!

When we limit the handball rubbish and get a kick out to a leading fwd we look like a completely different outfit.

Our forwards as a collective are letting us down bub.  Sometimes we do ok but from a consistency point of view, we don't do the basics well enough.  Forwards must play in front and relish the front position.  Too many of our forwards are looking for the 'cheapie' out the back.  It's been an issue since the Neitz days.  Our set shots when kicking for goal are often poor as well.  We're not the only team with the same deficiencies but we need to fix our own house.

Against the Hawks, their backmen were leading our forwards to the ball and yesterday, the same thing happened.  When we did win clean clearances in the first half,  we couldn't win the ball across the 50 metre arc (or keep control of the ball)

All the same, we really need Gawn & Hogan back if we're wanting to consistently win games.  If they're not our 2 most important players, they'd go close.

 

[dimmy 1,307]

I must admit I am a Watts, OMac,TMac fan (some people think I am a masochist). I have also been a long suffering follower ( 60+ years)

• Watts has been asked to act as a 2nd ruckman for extended periods this year. When he goes back to the Fwd line he is buggared (no rest), so cut some slack on him for the current situation. Because of this we are virtually playing a forward short for endurance. plus he is the bloke you want to have the ball in his hand at high half fwd. He still has enormous skills when he gets the ball, but he is not a bash and crash player.
• OMac : work in Progress. He was left on Brown who is bigger and stronger, plus was getting the ball lace out to him. There was too much clean ball coming towards them. A couple of times it was someone else in the contest so a review of the rplay may change some opinions. OMac is not perfect, but has enormous potential. He just is not ready to look after their spearhead yet.
• TMac : See Watts above in relation to time off the ball. He had to then go down and assist in defence. Difficult task !!
• We may have won clearances statistically , but not quality. That comes from a dominant ruckman. If you translate Goldsteins HO to Advantage to our blokes he has given them 15 more chances to take the ball away cleanly. The role of the dominant ruckman has become more important  this year with no 3rd man up which is where Watts, Tmac and Pedersen would excel.
• I am an optimist in that the current situation is going to be good for us in the longer term. Let us face it we were not going to challenge for P'ship this year but we are developing as Goody days.
• Petracca is spending more time in the midfield as is Hannan( who is getting more comfortable at AFL level) as per yesterday. Tyson was good yesterday as well. Salem is a lot tougher than what I gave him credit for.

[Adam The God 30,215]

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I thought Dom Tyson had his best game of the year.

He's been building nicely and has tidied up his disposal in the last fortnight. Just don't tell Steve.

4 hours ago, Jaded said:

It's not Oscar. I can't understand why supporters have such tunnel vision that they think all our woes begin and end with 1 player. Oscar did OK under the circumstances against a much much bigger and more experienced opponent.

The problem is our defensive structures. I don't like our zone defence, we are too easy to score against from a single turnover, and it kills us. We won ONE game at the G this year, that's deplorable. We can't switch fast enough on big grounds, and we've gone from being a defensively sound team, to being incredibly easy to score against on the counter attack. It's very disappointing and very worrying.

Goodwin needs to fix this and fast. If we can't win games at the G, we can't ever play or win finals. Simple.

It's not our zone defence. It's our players' ability to work hard enough. The zone doesn't hold up if there's a weak link. That doesn't mean we give up because it's too hard though. We'll concede some soft goals over the back occasionally, but if we get our heads right and our work rate is there you'll barely notice it. 

The zone is the key to our attack and ball movement. And as we've seen, we can slice any team open if we want to.

3 hours ago, chook fowler said:

See that swamp dweller Scott was being critical of us for getting physical with his boys. What a pathetic, wingeing bastard - especially when he was well known as a sniper when playing.  

And more galling given his blokes didn't stop sniping all day. A typical Scott side. They played like their coach.

[DubDee 25,806]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

They did that last year too and we reeled them back in. Games are played over 4 quarters.

we lost that one too

[deelete my account 1,194]

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

at 0-6 they were a rabble, the MFC has for years assisted opposition teams to find form. 

Did you notice that they also beat Adelaide? Or do you only watch MFC games?

Edit: It's not making excuses to be realistic about the opposition you faced. People aren't saying it was one of the best games for nothing, North showed up and played great footy. We didn't for periods of the game.

Edited May 22, 2017 by DominatrixTyson

[beelzebub 23,329]

Im wondering how observant our man Goody is to history, and i mean the quite recent stuff , i.e since being at Melbourne.

A persistent problem is our allowance of opposition teams to get a jump on us. That in mind i should think it prudent to play a little cautious in the 1st qtr let the lads find their feet and sorted to the pace of the game. Might be best to take a rather defensive stance to begin with. 

That in mind what sense in leaving Oscar to the slaughter whilst Tom fiddles away up front....where the ball wasn't ???

Yes it was adjusted...but effectively the game was already over..( even that early ....yes )

Makes no sense to me.

Play to your strengths ffs 

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

47 minutes ago, Macca said:

Forget those clearances numbers that you see Trav ... we got smashed out of the middle when the game was up for grabs in the 3rd quarter.  And I'm talking about clean clearances that our eyes can see.  I was keeping tabs and it was 6 to 1 for that 3rd quarter (clean clearances)

And many of our 1st half clean clearances were stifled across our half forward line due to our forwards not presenting or playing from behind.  North on the other hand used the ball to far greater effect with their clearances.

Goldstein was clearly the difference where as last week, Pyke couldn't turn a huge advantage in the ruck to his own advantage.  Can you imagine how we'd be reacting if Gawn got 74 tapouts and we got trounced?  This place would melt down.

Disagree on Goldstein. And I'm not looking and numbers alone, I was there as I always am.  And you cant blame our stifled clearances on the midfield setup when you are blaming the forwards??  

My point is we dont have other ruck options, we have to address this the best we can and Goodwin and co, along with the midfield, have done well in the circumstances nullifying the influence of opposition ruckmen.  Norths own on bigfooty were screaming down Goldstein during the game for not having enough influence.

Pederson 18 possesions and 2 goals.  Goldstein 17 possessions, no goals, and lots of inconsequential hitouts.

At the end of the day we get enough of the ball to win more than we lose, but we dont....

Edited May 22, 2017 by Travis16

[GM11 776]

5 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Im wondering how observant our man Goody is to history, and i mean the quite recent stuff , i.e since being at Melbourne.

A persistent problem is our allowance of opposition teams to get a jump on us. That in mind i should think it prudent to play a little cautious in the 1st qtr let the lads find their feet and sorted to the pace of the game. Might be best to take a rather defensive stance to begin with. 

That in mind what sense in leaving Oscar to the slaughter whilst Tom fiddles away up front....where the ball wasn't ???

Yes it was adjusted...but effectively the game was already over..( even that early ....yes )

Makes no sense to me.

Play to your strengths ffs 

Especially when Frost doesn't play like a KPD. Woefully undermanned without Tom there.

[Macca 16,958]

Just now, Travis16 said:

Disagree on Goldstein. And I'm not looking and numbers alone, I was there as I always am.  And you cant blame our stifled clearances on the midfield setup when you are blaming the forwards??  

My point is we dont have other ruck options, we have to address this the best we can and Goodwin and co, along with the midfield, have done well in the circumstances nullifying the influence opposition ruckmen.  Norths own on bigfooty was screaming down Goldstein on bigfooty during the game for not having enough influence.

Pederson 18 possesions and 2 goals.  Goldstein 17 possessions, no goals, and lots of inconsequential hitouts.

At the end of the day we get enough of the ball to win more than we lose, but we dont....

I was never blaming the forwards alone ... I also am looking at the fact that we didn't have an advantage in the ruck (no Gawn)

Last year against North Gawn got 25 taps to advantage in that narrow loss.  And we've replaced Gawn with Pedersen.  Therefore, Goldstein became a weapon yesterday.  I'd be surprised if he doesn't attract votes from the coaches.

When the game was up for grabs in the 3rd quarter yesterday, we couldn't get our hands on it.  Again, the influence of Goldstein.  And when we did win enough of the ball in the first half but we often wasted it or our forwards let us down.

We're going to sometimes win games without a ruckman but to expect to always win with Pedersen as our ruckman is totally unrealistic.

I was not surprised at all by yesterday's loss.  Our weaknesses are our weaknesses.  As previously stated, we badly miss Gawn & Hogan.  And we've only got about 13-14 'starting 22' players.   The rest are interchangeable.

 

[deelete my account 1,194]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Lyon on SEN this morning said that if he were Todd Viney he'd be heavily targeting May from GC - we don't have a gorilla backman and get caned by these tall guys over and again (lucky Daniher couldn't kick straight)

His wikipedia page says he's from NT, but went to school at Melboure grammar. I wonder if he's itching to get back into a blazer and toff around again.

Edited May 22, 2017 by DominatrixTyson

[Sir Why You Little 37,016]

24 minutes ago, DominatrixTyson said:

Did you notice that they also beat Adelaide? Or do you only watch MFC games?

Edit: It's not making excuses to be realistic about the opposition you faced. People aren't saying it was one of the best games for nothing, North showed up and played great footy. We didn't for periods of the game.

Sure. And it is entirely our own fault. It is above the shoulders, always has been for years. 

We have the talent, even without Gawn to win these games BUT the Application and will to hurt for 4 Quarters is not yet there, as a standard yet. 

I feel sorry for Pedo, he gave 120% yesterday, tried so hard but others made crucial basic errors when they were needed. 

That said Nought Melbourne would never have beaten the Crows in Adelaide, they did it on Neutral Grass, wwhich is why i am so frustrated. We can no longer defend on our own MCG. 

[chook fowler 19,458]

35 minutes ago, A F said:

He's been building nicely and has tidied up his disposal in the last fortnight. Just don't tell Steve.

It's not our zone defence. It's our players' ability to work hard enough. The zone doesn't hold up if there's a weak link. That doesn't mean we give up because it's too hard though. We'll concede some soft goals over the back occasionally, but if we get our heads right and our work rate is there you'll barely notice it. 

The zone is the key to our attack and ball movement. And as we've seen, we can slice any team open if we want to.

And more galling given his blokes didn't stop sniping all day. A typical Scott side. They played like their coach.

The Scott brothers are the most over-rated coaches in the competition- Chris did a Percy Jones and coached a premiership on the coattails of others work, beyond that they have done nothing but whinge.