On Viney, he is a very limited footballer who plays and scraps like a bulldog but with not too much skill. My other major concern with him is, every time he gets the ball his first instinct is to beat the pack. This must be eradicated from his game.Oppositions will be onto this fact!

Jones also does this but to less a degree.

9 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

What frustrates me is how often we get beaten as a result of giving away bursts of goals, which is clearly a problem of lapses in the zone defence and in overall play.

4 unanswered goals in 20 minutes by West Coast ended up being the difference, almost the exact margin.

So many 'dead stops', failing to score, letting goals through. It's the Demon madness. It's easy to find a host of examples from last season, even if you just go by quarters, and even if you skip the less extreme cases.

 

Round 3 - an 8 goal to 2 first quarter and 7 goal to 3 3rd quarter cost us the loss to North in a see-sawing game (well, Tasmanian wind and all) 

Round 6 - 8 goals to 3 third quarter and St Kilda have done that thing St Kilda keep doing to us.

Round 10 - 6 goal to 1 final quarter turned a close game into a solid thumping by Port, up in Darwin

Rnd 11 - failed to score a goal in the final quarter after being level with them at 3/4 time.

rnd 13 - Sydney double their goal tally, kicking 6 goals to 1, turning a dreary low-scoring slog into another of our biggest losses for the year

rnd 17 - 5 goals to nothing 2nd quarter sets up St Kilda for another solid win over us.

rnd 18 - We're six points ahead at 3/4 time, and kick exactly 2 points in the final quarter.

rnd 23 - We actually stemmed the bleeding a bit in the middle two quarters, but 8 goals against us in the first and TEN in the final quarter sure ruined the day for everyone.

There's a few other results where, even when we won, our opponents kicked a full half of their final score in a single quarter.

 

I'm not too worried about the specific result of the final game of the pre-season. It's the pattern that bugs me. Even this preseason, the Bulldogs wiped out our previous 45 minutes of work with a 15 minute burst of 4 goals late in the second quarter.

 

Right, I've got that off my chest.

You aren't going to stem the flood of goals against better teams while u have the likes of Omac, Garlo and Bernie down back. We will win very few games against top 8 teams while these three remain there. Loose as a goose. Too many holes = easy run on goals on any turnovers up the field.

From centre bounces, stoppages they probably look better as defence has time to set up.

Dont know how many times I've seen Garlo leave his man to attempt the most unrealistic chop out 30 meters away, surprisingly doesn't get anywhere near the contest to spoil (was never going to), then his man is free out the back for the joe-the-goose. Often hits panick button under any pressure resulting in poor disposal choices/outcomes also.

If Omac did a full pre-season he mustn't have eaten much. Looks same through the bod as last year. Teams will be putting someone solid on him and targeting him all season if we keep persisting here.

Need Pedders, Nev back ASAP. Watts needed down back occasionally to assist with kick ins also when opp is on a roll or whoever is designated 'kick in' is having an off day or just relief/change up diff look for opp or for preferred mis match up field.

Bernie to HF and part time through the mid. Horrible waste and liability down back.

We look unimpressive up forward and won't worry most opponents outside the bottom 6 with current line up. Too slow once ball hits the turf and unless Maxy/Spencil are parked up there we look too short and can't see how we can afford to carry both rucks in most matches. The return of a very fit (eager/committed) Jeffy will obviously help. Rotate Maxy, Harmes, Bernie and Vanders thru HF & part time thru mid.

Will probably win about same number of games as last year ....maybe one or two extra if injuries are kind to us and the ex bomber blokes and Lewis show some ROI.

I thought T Mac was good. Not so sure about O Mac and am surprised about Jetta being out of favour - unless it's all mind games to get him to go to another level. We really need Frost to keep developing.

ANB tackles and harasses very well but that's were it ends. Not sure what Harmes brings to the table as he seems to be a limited footballer. I really don't think Spencil will kick 3 too often - happy to be proved wrong.

As much as I dislike Mitchell, he has to be one of the most prolific and consistent player of all time, and he never wastes a disposal. Oliver has many of the same traits.

Not very happy about Trenners treatment- he deserves better.

Edited March 10, 20178 yr by chook fowler

14 minutes ago, picket fence said:

On Viney, he is a very limited footballer who plays and scraps like a bulldog but with not too much skill. My other major concern with him is, every time he gets the ball his first instinct is to beat the pack. This must be eradicated from his game.Oppositions will be onto this fact!

 

He is a star and will go close to AA selection this year

5 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

He is a star and will go close to AA selection this year

Agree. One ordinary preseason game. Big deal. He got getter as the game went on.

21 minutes ago, picket fence said:

On Viney, he is a very limited footballer who plays and scraps like a bulldog but with not too much skill. My other major concern with him is, every time he gets the ball his first instinct is to beat the pack. This must be eradicated from his game.Oppositions will be onto this fact!

Jones also does this but to less a degree.

This is just not true. 

3 hours ago, Watts Jurrah Dunn? said:

Our forward line and the half forwards that kick it in there were dysfunctional.  So often the i50 entry was from a player like Harmes, Neal-Bullen or Bugg when you want it with a Watts, Salem or Lewis.  Unless we are on the fast break, we seem to be under instruction just to put it on Gawn's head at the top of the square. We missed Garlett enormously.  

The past few drafts have had to be about about just building a base with solid inside midfielders.  That's now built and we have them coming out of our ears, to the point that they have to try and play a creative half forward role that is just not suited to them (Harmes, Neal-Bullen).  It's time to go out and find some front half magic in future drafts and try and find a Rioli, Wingard, Bruest etc type.

A timely wake up call for Petracca.  There'll be a big difference getting a kick on Dempster or Geary in Round 1 compared to some Carlton spud at Casey.

Tyson was atrocious and can't be picked for Round 1 on that performance.  Half a dozen shocking turnovers and yes he got 20+ possessions, but they were the possessions Brayshaw was getting in previous weeks and he uses it much better.

Oscar McDonald looked like he'd ran from Melbourne to Perth to play the game.  Looked absolutely knackered from the first bounce.  Clearly they see a big future there but for me, when Frost is back, it's Frost every week with his closing speed and power.

Oliver and Hunt - wow.

We have been a train wreck hitting targets coming inside 50 against decent opposition for a decade now WJD. I agree. It has to be fixed and Salem/Watts are a must pressing forward of centre if we are to have any chance of correcting this somewhat. Watts obviously will play various roles as usual to fill some of our glaring foot skill inadequacies and poor decision making around the ground but hopefully will spend more time off the wing or HF. Salem is also another loose goose when playing in back half. The opposition must be praying we continue with the basic line up we had last night. Let's hope some of our better defenders return shortly and some who just don't defend well are moved into better roles up the field.

14 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I thought T Mac was good. Not so sure about O Mac and am surprised about Jetta being out of favour - unless it's all mind games to get him to go to another level. We really need Frost to keep developing.

ANB tackles and harasses very well but that's were it ends. Not sure what Harmes brings to the table as he seems to be a limited footballer. I really don't think Spencil will kick 3 too often - happy to be proved wrong.

As much as I dislike Mitchell, he has to be one of the most prolific and consistent player of all time, and he never wastes a disposal. Oliver has many of the same traits.

Not very happy about Trenners treatment- he deserves better.

It was only a JLT Chook but anytime you let Mitchell run amok without some sort of tag you are probably going lose more often than not. Other teams woke up to that last year. Hopefully he won't be allowed the same space during season proper.

3 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I don't think it was either, however it was apparent that it was something we missed last night.  As soon as the ball hit the deck the Eagles were generally able to run it out quickly.  Petracca and Brayshaw needed a Kent/Garlett there as they are too similar in their play.  Having a zippy player at the feet of our talls will help us jag a few extra goals and add some pressure to the opposition backline.  God knows we can't let St. Kilda waltz it out of their backline with ease in a fortnight's time.

Perhaps you're right to an extent.

But overall, the issue is with how we're entering our 50. Bombing it long to a six man pack is under 10's footy. I don't remember Gawn taking one contested mark last night. Hogan's preference to asking for it long rather than presenting forward as an option is also somewhat problematic. If we didn't directly turn it over last night, we weren't hitting the right spots, and whilst a small forward like Garlett may have been able to jag one or two, I reckon it's a secondary issue.

One thing that'll save us going into the St Kilda match is that the ground is smaller and the Saints won't have as much space to work with. Subi is a long ground and part of what made West Coast look good is their running power from their half-backline through to their midfield. 

Yeo, Sheppard, Wellingham, Masten, Shuey, Cripps, Jetta and Gaff are all power runners. They can all cover the ground with great ease and are fleet of foot and last night they showed us up on the rebound and even from stop plays in their back-half. They were just able to get on their bikes a lot more easily than us. 

We have a greater abundance of slower, one-paced mids and wingers who are really strong inside. Evidenced by the fact we beat them in clearances, centre clearances stoppages and the contested possession count.

Hunt, Melksham and Stretch were our power/outside runners last night. That's not enough.

The Saints similarly have some strong runners in their side as well as a stronger back-line and forward-line.

For us to have any chance in round 1, our D/E will have to be right up and we'll have to make sure at least one in every three inside 50's result in a score. This is providing our mids get on top.

As for the Spencer/Gawn conundrum. I don't know what to think. If we do go with it, I'd have Jesse on Roo the entire night whenever he's on the wing. Jesse/Gawn or Jesse/Spencer in our forward-line just get in the way of each other. We don't need a forwardline of Jesse/Ruckman/Weid/Watts. That's ridiculous.

Edited March 10, 20178 yr by stevethemanjordan

18 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I thought T Mac was good. Not so sure about O Mac and am surprised about Jetta being out of favour - unless it's all mind games to get him to go to another level.

I imagine some over-the-top supporters of Tom would say the same thing.

And I want to know why you thought he was good last night rather than just average. (Which is how I saw it).

9 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I imagine some over-the-top supporters of Tom would say the same thing.

And I want to know why you thought he was good last night rather than just average. (Which is how I saw it).

He took some vey good intercept marks and I can not remember 1 bad turnover.

Just now, chook fowler said:

He took some vey good intercept marks and I can not remember 1 bad turnover.

He turned the ball over with his first kick of the night, under no pressure, coming out of the backline.

Other than that he wasn't too bad.  As you say, his contested marking down back was a highlight.

10 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Perhaps you're right to an extent.

But overall, the issue is with how we're entering our 50. Bombing it long to a six man pack is under 10's footy. I don't remember Gawn taking one contested mark last night. Hogan's preference to asking for it long rather than presenting forward as an option is also somewhat problematic. If we didn't directly turn it over last night, we weren't hitting the right spots, and whilst a small forward like Garlett may have been able to jag one or two, I reckon it's a secondary issue

 

All good points, Steve.  Can't argue with much of that.

I thought your point about our entries inside 50 was pretty much spot on.  We've got too many tall forwards at the minute who like the ball kicked on their head.  Hogan loves it and, when he gets the chance of a one on one contest, he can beat anybody and take the mark.  The problem is getting it to him quickly enough.  Gawn and Spencer aren't your leading types, which is why I think they like playing Weideman as his game is predicated on leading and marking the footy (even though he didn't get near it last night).  Dunstall touched on it for most of the night, in that we dominated periods of the game but our usage once we got it to half forward wasn't up to scratch.

The small forwards are a secondary issue, but it was quite prevalent that we missed their influence once the ball hit the deck last night.

6 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

He took some vey good intercept marks and I can not remember 1 bad turnover.

I guess that is what one would call a serious case of cognitive bias.

So much so that it's clearly affected your ability to see on a television. 

Sure makes sense now when I think about how many on here believe his consistency or lack thereof isn't up for discussion. I guess you can't help people that don't see what's in front of their eyes.

 

Edited March 10, 20178 yr by stevethemanjordan

4 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I could be wrong, but I don't feel as though the breakdown of the zone will be as bad on a smaller ground.  Subiaco is much wider and therefore a team like West Coast know how to find the gaps easier, which they did when we turn it over.  When we've played on smaller ground in the first two rounds our zone defence has been great and, even when there has been a turnover, we've had the rebound generally covered.  Granted, one of those games was against an extremely average Carlton side, but you could see what we were doing.  The Eagles just had too much space on the bigger ground and we kept giving them easy goals through preventable turnovers.

The one thing in our favour, at the minute, is our midfield.  I think we won more than our fair share of the ball and, when we used it well, we looked dangerous.  The addition of a Kent/Garlett will also help our cause down there and I think it's an area that we have the Saints covered in.

Hopefully this is a great learning experience and that we now have 2 weeks to tighten the screws and iron out some of the kinks we found last night.  I'm happy for us to have it happen in JLT3 than Round 1... as long as don't make the same mistakes again!

It actually a lot skinnier than the G. 

Just now, Grimes Times said:

It actually a lot skinnier than the G. 

Yes, I should go back and fix it up as others have brought it up as well.

I hope most got what I meant, though.

9 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I guess that is what one would call a serious case of cognitive bias.

So much so that it's clearly affected your ability to see on a television. 

Sure makes sense now when I think about how many on here believe his consistency or lack thereof isn't up for discussion. I guess you can't help people that don't see what's in front of their eyes.

 

Whatever. Cognitive bias is the perogative of all supporters. Without it life would be pretty dull.

Edited March 10, 20178 yr by chook fowler

16 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

He turned the ball over with his first kick of the night, under no pressure, coming out of the backline.

Other than that he wasn't too bad.  As you say, his contested marking down back was a highlight.

You are right. I meant to say I can remember only 1 bad turnover.

3 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

That makes me more concerned about Goodwin than Jetta.

He forgot to mention his name at a press conference just after a game, didn't mention Pedersen either so he's gone as well

Nev has had a quad injury at exactly the wrong time, he knows he has to force his way back into Goody's thinking and has a couple of Casey games to do that, I know this coz I spoke to Nev

There are 16 days to go

 

I don't wish to be a smartarse. But seriously, if you're missing the bad he does and only taking note of the good, it's no wonder you're at his defence at every opportunity.

I also witnessed the three (or thereabouts) really good defensive marks that he took in difficult conditions. That's great. But I also took note of how he disposed of the ball, whether or not he played on at appropriate times, whether he corralled well, spoiled well etc etc. Consistency in all areas of his game is what we want. We want that of every player.

We had an abundance of players who butchered the ball last night on various occasions, I'm waiting for those posts to come at me.

But Tom is one who consistently has a problem with his CONSISTENCY in playing at the level required.

And considering we have no back-up and I'd argue one of if not the thinnest KP defensive stocks in the AFL, it's problematic. Because his place in the team will never be under question at any time this year, regardless of how he performs. That needs to change if we want to keep moving in an upward trajectory.

 

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

He forgot to mention his name at a press conference just after a game, didn't mention Pedersen either so he's gone as well

Nev has had a quad injury at exactly the wrong time, he knows he has to force his way back into Goody's thinking and has a couple of Casey games to do that, I know this coz I spoke to Nev

There are 16 days to go

 

At last some reason.  16 days to go.  Another team, a different attitude with 4 points at stake.  I am not panicking at all.

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Going by Goodys press conference i don't think Jetta is in his best 22..

After last night I hope he has another think about that.

14 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Whatever. Cognitive bias is the perogative of all supporters. Without it life would be pretty dull.

Sure.

But there is a spectrum of levels within.

And within that spectrum, you and I are in very different places.

17 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

He forgot to mention his name at a press conference just after a game, didn't mention Pedersen either so he's gone as well

Nev has had a quad injury at exactly the wrong time, he knows he has to force his way back into Goody's thinking and has a couple of Casey games to do that, I know this coz I spoke to Nev

There are 16 days to go

 

You know..

 

But do you reaalllllllyyyy know?

Edited March 10, 20178 yr by stevethemanjordan

10 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

You know..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But do you reaalllllllyyyy know?

 

 

 

 

I know Nev's thinking on the matter, not Goody's