My girlfriend works in the Department of Human Services and from her experience it's incredibly difficult to remove indigenous children from families where they perpetrate harm against children, because as an instrument of the government, they are paranoid about being seen to create another Stolen Generation. This actually results in a population of children that are traumatised and irreparably harmed, contributing to a cycle of abuse, intergenerational poverty and intergenerational child protection involvement.

This all said, a lot of the issues faced by the indigenous community stem from British colonialism and as a result it is really not good enough for the rest of Australia to continue turning a blind eye to the plight of these indigenous communities. So, for example, do not force closure of remote communities and do not remove educational funding from indigenous communities. In fact, this only worsens the problem.

''Waleed Aly on Adam Goodes.''

Search that up on youtube. 120 000 views already.

''Waleed Aly on Adam Goodes.''

Search that up on youtube. 120 000 views already.

Me thinks there will some posters who will have a a somewhat visceral reaction to that clip. Fashionable lefty and all that. For what its worth waleed is spot on

This whole thread is too deep for me, but please tell me that when he threw the spear into the crowd he killed at least on Carlton supporter. That would make his Australian of the Year title valid.

''Waleed Aly on Adam Goodes.''

Search that up on youtube. 120 000 views already.

Goodes is a bit like Mitch Clark, there is an issue a week.

I seriously doubt race even plays a part, but each to their own. At least Waleed Aly speaks well, I give him votes for that.

I don't necessarily agree with him, but I would like to hear more from him.

Time to shut this thread down before the racist bigots here ruin Demonland permanently.

I'II second that, can't believe amount of racist Demon supporters but suppose demograpphic of Melbourne fans is middle-upper class so lot of conservatives in there

Edited June 3, 201510 yr by baysidedave

At least Waleed Aly speaks well, I give him votes for that.

I don't necessarily agree with him, but I would like to hear more from him.

Disagree, Waleeds a racist and the less we hear from him on the subject the better.

Edited June 4, 201510 yr by Fork 'em

This whole thread is too deep for me, but please tell me that when he threw the spear into the crowd he killed at least on Carlton supporter. That would make his Australian of the Year title valid.

I would have prefered Collingwood Uncle F

I'II second that, can't believe amount of racist Demon supporters but suppose demograpphic of Melbourne fans is middle-upper class so lot of conservatives in there

That bit might be true Dave (at least according to the usual story) but I'd be a bit careful about drawing a line between 'middle-upper classes' and racism. There's a well-documented history of racism and the working class in Australia, based around fear about jobs mainly ('there were eight or ten dashed Chinamen a-shearin' in a row'); and the Labor Party and racism were bedfellows for a long time. As late as the 1950s Arthur Calwell (for a while Minister for Immigration and then leader of the opposition) was still leading the charge against non-white immigration. Of course, for much of that time most parts of Australian society were pretty racist anyway, but it was something that was easier to exploit among the working class. The Labor Party may have moved on and some conservatives might not have, but that doesn't mean that there are straightforward connections between people who vote conservative and class and racism. Promoting fear/distrust etc among the so-called bogans about Muslims is an obvious enough legacy of a different class-based relationship.

Does class matter in any of this now anyway? Lots of the middle class vote Labor, lots of workers vote LNP (as Tony Abbott's frequent fluoro vests remind us).

Discussing Adam Goodes is not our strong suit. But then I remember the discussion of our own Liam Jurrah, too.

Good thing Wattsy's blond... (just to get us back to our real targetopic).

My girlfriend works in the Department of Human Services and from her experience it's incredibly difficult to remove indigenous children from families where they perpetrate harm against children, because as an instrument of the government, they are paranoid about being seen to create another Stolen Generation. This actually results in a population of children that are traumatised and irreparably harmed, contributing to a cycle of abuse, intergenerational poverty and intergenerational child protection involvement.

This all said, a lot of the issues faced by the indigenous community stem from British colonialism and as a result it is really not good enough for the rest of Australia to continue turning a blind eye to the plight of these indigenous communities. So, for example, do not force closure of remote communities and do not remove educational funding from indigenous communities. In fact, this only worsens the problem.

I agree with much of that, however, some of these communities are so remote what standard of education do the children have ? Is it in their best interests to stay so isolated ? Do they have access to proper medical facilities, etc. ? I don't know the answers, but these issues would concern me as a parent,

I can understand why Goodes, et al, continually highlight our past and the present plight of some indigenes, however, does the finger pointing advance issues ? Is public money being properly spent to advance education and opportunity ?

An excellent post on here was LG's declaration on page 21 that the Aboriginal community needed to increase its "leadership strength". Without leadership driving progress from within we'll be having the same circular arguments in 50 years. I'll be saying that I don't take ownership over what happened 250 years ago and others will walk around advertising their deep-seated guilt. But I'm not sure how this self-loathing has actually ever advanced the indigenous cause.

There will have to come a time when the reconciliation movement stops wallowing over the past and starts focussing on the future, which I'm sure they're already doing, but anger over the past only stifles advancement. Kevin Rudd said "sorry", but what has that achieved ? Now I know that last sentence will be all that some focus on (the Stu's and Hardtacks of this world}, but what are the tangible benefits ? Perhaps it was the line in the sand to move forward from. OK, great. Where to now ?

The mind is the most powerful thing any human possesses. It will reap tremendous rewards for those with passion, desire and a plan for advancement. Goodes has the first two, but does he have the third ? All the rear mirror gazing in the world will achieve nothing until the Aboriginal people can visualise what success looks like. Do they know what they crave and how to get it ? Will they be driven and focus on what they want for the future or be paralysed by what happened in the past ? Where are the leaders ? Are the leaders all on the same page ?

Or is this a circular argument that will never change ? It can change, but it will only be changed by indigenous peoples.

Could we just finish this self indulgent exercise and talk about footy

Fair enough AK, you seem sincere. Apologies for implying you might be trolling, though to be honest i suspected you weren't. Good on you for wanting to make an effort to reach a deeper understanding of what is a very complex issue. Too complex for a footy forum.

I reckon a good start to understanding this issue is getting a handle on the history of colonization, the impact on Aboriginals and the subsequent history. Geoffrey Blainey's works might be a good place to start if wanting to read about it or perhaps get hold of the documentary series that aired on SBS a while back, The First Australians (an excellent series).

Thanks for taking the time to answer me, instead of just assuming the worst in people. I will peruse Geoffrey Blainey's works.

I think that may have been the case in the past though these days I'm not so sure it is as much of an issue.

I guess something to remember is that you can't really try and lump all indigenous people or communities into the one basket - they use to be hundreds of nations before the continent was colonised by the British and even then it would be like trying to say all Australians or Victorians (or even Melbourne supporters ) can be lumped into the same group. It is clear there is going to be a variance of opinion in most groups however on the whole I don't think the indigenous community would be too concerned with Goodes being seen as a spokesperson for them although you'd have to ask them.

Yeah that was an anger post, I should have stopped and not stereotyped as I did.

I agree with much of that, however, some of these communities are so remote what standard of education do the children have ? Is it in their best interests to stay so isolated ? Do they have access to proper medical facilities, etc. ? I don't know the answers, but these issues would concern me as a parent,

I can understand why Goodes, et al, continually highlight our past and the present plight of some indigenes, however, does the finger pointing advance issues ? Is public money being properly spent to advance education and opportunity ?

An excellent post on here was LG's declaration on page 21 that the Aboriginal community needed to increase its "leadership strength". Without leadership driving progress from within we'll be having the same circular arguments in 50 years. I'll be saying that I don't take ownership over what happened 250 years ago and others will walk around advertising their deep-seated guilt. But I'm not sure how this self-loathing has actually ever advanced the indigenous cause.

There will have to come a time when the reconciliation movement stops wallowing over the past and starts focussing on the future, which I'm sure they're already doing, but anger over the past only stifles advancement. Kevin Rudd said "sorry", but what has that achieved ? Now I know that last sentence will be all that some focus on (the Stu's and Hardtacks of this world}, but what are the tangible benefits ? Perhaps it was the line in the sand to move forward from. OK, great. Where to now ?

The mind is the most powerful thing any human possesses. It will reap tremendous rewards for those with passion, desire and a plan for advancement. Goodes has the first two, but does he have the third ? All the rear mirror gazing in the world will achieve nothing until the Aboriginal people can visualise what success looks like. Do they know what they crave and how to get it ? Will they be driven and focus on what they want for the future or be paralysed by what happened in the past ? Where are the leaders ? Are the leaders all on the same page ?

Or is this a circular argument that will never change ? It can change, but it will only be changed by indigenous peoples.

I agree with most of this, and i hope in doing so I do not get called a racist in the meantime. As i have said before I can not being to understand what happened in the past and I cannot being to understand what living with that past behind your people is like. The leadership post by LG http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/38489-adam-goodes/page-21#entry1101462 will only work if everyone gets behind it, government and indigenous communities. Surely there has been things of this nature tried in the past.

Edited June 3, 201510 yr by AzzKikA

I'II second that, can't believe amount of racist Demon supporters but suppose demographic of Melbourne fans is middle-upper class so lot of conservatives in there

Comedy gold.

A bigot complaining about bigotry.

It can change, but it will only be changed by indigenous peoples.

I'm out. This has gotten too ridiculous even for me.

I'm out. This has gotten too ridiculous even for me.

Bye

Clearly there hasn't been a government policy to remove white children en masse from their families.

Is that the point you were trying to make ? Talk about stating the bleeding obvious.

Perhaps clumsily, you inferred it was really only Aboriginal children who were ever removed from abusive situations when you said, "Child abuse happens in all communities but historically they have been removed from which families?". I then pointed out this wasn't the case and supplied information that shows 27K non-Aboriginal have presently been placed in OOHC.

Check your unedited post on page 24/576, which is the initial post I was responding to and not your subsequently edited version down the page.

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Posted Yesterday, 04:20 PM

ManDee, on 03 Jun 2015 - 4:06 PM, said:

My point, too subtle for some was that the only example of removing children* in Australia has been from Aboriginal families. That is racism.

At no point did I mention that Catholism was a race, I said community. Perhaps facts and logic are lost on you.

Edit * En masse

Facts and logic ? That's a laugh.

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children are NOT the only children removed from dangerous situations.

Right now there are less Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in OOHC than non-Aboriginal. Although their percentage is greatly higher.

This link may be of interest to you. Thank me later.

https://aifs.gov.au/...lect-statistics

----

Yet you clearly were responding to the earlier quote as shown above.

Edited June 3, 201510 yr by ManDee

Think you're taking it a bit too far mate...

This thread has gotten to the stage where all it deserves are pics and gifs....

One day people will wake up & realise that Racism is a human condition found all over the world. Some of the worst examples I have experienced are

In Japan by Japanese against Koreans & other dark skinned migrants. In India by upper caste Hindus against other people particularly lower castes & if they had darker skin.

In Central Australlia by some Indigenous people against Non Indigenous. In the Top End by white red necks against anyone of colour.

In Italy by Northern Italians against Southern Italians. Plenty of other examples as well in Hong Kong, Morocco & Indonesia. When I find a country without racists I'll let you know.

I'II second that, can't believe amount of racist Demon supporters but suppose demograpphic of Melbourne fans is middle-upper class so lot of conservatives in there

wow.

so now

middle upper class = racist

conservative = racist

anymore stereotypes you'd like to add to the list, dave?

or can we conclude that all racists are middle upper class conservatives?

maybe we need to rewrite a few history books

One day people will wake up & realise that Racism is a human condition found all over the world. Some of the worst examples I have experienced are

In Japan by Japanese against Koreans & other dark skinned migrants. In India by upper caste Hindus against other people particularly lower castes & if they had darker skin.

In Central Australlia by some Indigenous people against Non Indigenous. In the Top End by white red necks against anyone of colour.

In Italy by Northern Italians against Southern Italians. Plenty of other examples as well in Hong Kong, Morocco & Indonesia. When I find a country without racists I'll let you know.

Thanks for your enlightening contribution, even if your examples are largely about ethnocentricism.

Could we just finish this self indulgent exercise and talk about footy

a good point jack, but methinks football at the moment is more depressing for many demonlanders based on their footy postings

This thread has gotten to the stage where all it deserves are pics and gifs....

as usual stuie, your contribution has been most illuminating

a good point jack, but methinks football at the moment is more depressing for many demonlanders based on their footy postings

Isn't that the truth.