Adam Goodes

[beelzebub 23,347]

Still intrigued why this is in a football forum area...and not over in the political section..aka "general"....just saying

[Moonshadow 17,676]

It's a case of 'right idea, wrong execution'. As others have said, what a missed opportunity to be educated about the significance of the dance, not just that it was put together by others. In the context of AFL, Here's the part I don't get - Shaun Burgoyne made comment that while he's good friends with Goodes and they do a lot of work in their communities together, he said 'Goodes isn't a good dancer'. I want to see Indigenous AFL players put on a great dance not just for my entertainment, but because I'm envious that the kiwi's get to regularly enjoy the strong culture of their own Indigenous people, to see that pride.. Maybe such a display of unity would be massively good for our Aboriginal culture, too.

Someone said that it's be too hard to get the Indigenous players from all club to assemble for the opening night of Indigenous round, but like almost everything in life big achievements are hard won.

With all due respect nrc73, I don't think Goodes did it to be seen as an entertainer to fans such as yourself or to show off his dancing skills (or lack of). This is not Dancing With The Stars. His did it as a mark of pride for his culture and as a show of respect to the u16 kids Indigenous kids who showed him the moves.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Moonshadow

[Gator 17,332]

You claimed the stolen generation was a myth. You then retracted that and said you didn't really know anything about it. You then said (despite the fact you clearly know nothing about the topic and have admitted as such) that you think the whole thing was overblown.

Back to the Bolt blog ProDee.

I've read a fair bit, but it doesn't qualify my opinion to be "expert" and I recognise that, hence the retraction, but I still have an opinion. Take it or leave it.

One thing I know for certain, and it involves you.

[stuie 7,374]

I've read a fair bit, but it doesn't qualify my opinion to be "expert" and I recognise that, hence the retraction, but I still have an opinion. Take it or leave it.

One thing I know for certain, and it involves you.

Can't have read that much if you thought the stolen generation was a myth, and the Bolt Report doesn't really qualify as informative reading anyway.

[Gator 17,332]

Can't have read that much if you thought the stolen generation was a myth, and the Bolt Report doesn't really qualify as informative reading anyway.

I've read a fair bit, but decided to do more research, as I'd made a declaration on here. Upon further reading there was enough doubt for me to question long-held beliefs.

My views mirror Bolt on most things, but I don't share his angst at Goodes' dance, or him equating it to Sheedy's throat slit to White or the "shotgun". The analogies are as silly as people complaining about being vilified for red hair.

Anyway, you can please yourself what you think of me. I'm not invested in you.

Edited June 1, 2015 by ProDee

[stuie 7,374]

My views mirror Bolt on most things

And that's all I need to know about you.

[Gator 17,332]

And that's all I need to know about you.

Out and proud conservative, Stu.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

"Stolen Generations" I'm confused.

My dad was handed over by his single parent father to an orphanage (in Europe) at 3 moths. My father in law's mother got pregnant in the 1940's & gave him up for adoption at birth.

It seems that if you were one of the tens of thousands of non indigenous kids removed by various authorities in the last 100 years it was done for good logical reasons.

If you were one of the tens of thousands of Indigenous kids removed during the same time it was done because of racism, genocide or stupidity.

What are we supposed to make of the thousands of kids of all races still being removed from their parents today.

Seems to me to be complex issue with a lot of grey areas.

Seriously? You don't see the discrepancy between a parent putting their kids up for adoption willingly and those who have their kids taken from them by force?

So we should just let them drink and bash each other to death then?

We cannot change what many before us did, whether we believe it right or wrong. Have you been to the NT lately? You cannot help those who do not wish to be helped. Bigotry is bred on both sides. Many stand with their hand out waiting for the white fella to give them something, and if you do what do they do with it? How do you change the thinking on their side too not just whiteys?

Issues borne of poverty not race.

[Elusive Tunbridge 795]

It makes utter sense to me that some children over the decades have been spared more abuse by removing them from dangerous situations. But being able to identify all child removal as racist government policy versus some child removal for protection purposes would blur the lines, in my opinion.

Knowing personally people who were "removed" from family situations only to be sexually abused in institutional and foster care, I would qualify your argument. Certainly there has been rampant sexual abuse in some Aboriginal communities - the Swan River camp in Perth in the 90s being one of the worst examples - but the lead in exposing this practice was taken by Aboriginal women and some men, at some risk to themselves.

The Howard government intervention was an opportunistic grab at control of communities and their resources, especially the land, that did little to control the abuse. Removal to prevent abuse is a frying pan/fire strategy.

[binman 42,896]

I suspect it won't shock you to know that I have zero interest in your vapid opinions of me.

Child abuse is a serious problem today in some remote Aboriginal communities. Unfortunately this sad state of affairs is virtually never mentioned by those that want to paint Australia as an extremely racist country. It's a problem today, as it was 100 years ago.

It makes utter sense to me that some children over the decades have been spared more abuse by removing them from dangerous situations. But being able to identify all child removal as racist government policy versus some child removal for protection purposes would blur the lines, in my opinion.

Naturally, there are bellicose bloviators like you, who want to scream that everything is either black or white.

Good on you PD for taking the time and effort to reconsider your views. Few bother (on both sides of the debate with many polarising issues), which of course is part of the problem and i have respect for those that do.

One only need to look at the numbers of children going into state care around the country to see that there is a serious issue of child abuse in many non aboriginal communities, particularly ones that suffer from entrenched poverty.

But you are right to say there is a serious problem of child abuse in some (many?) aboriginal remote communities. A key issue is the causal factors for this problem, for it is only in understanding properly what is at the heart of it that effective, meaningful preventative responses can be developed. A failure to properly understand the cause leads to bad (and often damaging) public policy.

As a poster noted way earlier a key causal factor is the history of colonization and all its horrors (horrors that Adam Goodes has been brave enough to make clear) and subsequent government policies and community values (Little Goffys posts a re a powerful reminder of these). These elements have caused untold damage for both the Aboriginal people and the broader Australian community since colonization. When communities, families and support systems are destroyed you end up where were are now. The same story has tragically played out in indigenous communities around the world post colonization.

We can't spend our way out this problem. We can only heal our way out of the problem. And it is not just a problem for Aboriginal people it is a problem for all of us.

I have total respect for Adam Goodes for using his platform to create dialogue and yes argument - for using his platform to speak plain truth, truth that need not only to be accepted but internalized by Australia if we are to move forward as healthy society.

I loved the comments from Micky O in this article, basically saying if not Adam (and him) who is going to say what needs to be sad, to carry on the work of their elders? I appreciate that some people don't like the message or the delivery but i respect people who stand up for what they think is right.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

I suspect it won't shock you to know that I have zero interest in your vapid opinions of me.

Child abuse is a serious problem today in some remote Aboriginal communities. Unfortunately this sad state of affairs is virtually never mentioned by those that want to paint Australia as an extremely racist country. It's a problem today, as it was 100 years ago.

It makes utter sense to me that some children over the decades have been spared more abuse by removing them from dangerous situations. But being able to identify all child removal as racist government policy versus some child removal for protection purposes would blur the lines, in my opinion.

Naturally, there are bellicose bloviators like you, who want to scream that everything is either black or white.

Good of you to acknowledge that there may be more to the situation than you previously thought.

With regards to the child abuse in indigenous communities, I am not aware of the situation enough to properly comment, however I will quote again from a recent John Pilger article;

The last frontal attack was in 2007 when Prime Minister Howard sent the army into Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory to "rescue children" who, said his minister for Aboriginal Affairs, Mal Brough, were being abused by paedophile gangs in "unthinkable numbers".

Known as "the intervention", the media played a vital role. In 2006, the national TV current affairs programme, the ABC's 'Lateline', broadcast a sensational interview with a man whose face was concealed. Described as a "youth worker" who had lived in the Aboriginal community of Mutitjulu, he made a series of lurid allegations. Subsequently exposed as a senior government official who reported directly to the minister, his claims were discredited by the Australian Crime Commission, the Northern Territory Police and a damning report by child medical specialists. The community received no apology.

I also wonder if child abuse is the real issue, why is the government not sending the military in to close down catholic churches? From my reading, child abuse is no more endemic in indigenous communities than the rest of the community (I have friends who work in DHS and some of the stories I've heard are truly horrifying, most from anglo communities in regional areas). It seems to me these things are related more to poverty than race.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

Still intrigued why this is in a football forum area...and not over in the political section..aka "general"....just saying

It's related to footy through the Goodes booing/goal celebration and indigenous round. If you don't want to read it, don't open the thread.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I suspect it won't shock you to know that I have zero interest in your vapid opinions of me.

Child abuse is a serious problem today in some remote Aboriginal communities. Unfortunately this sad state of affairs is virtually never mentioned by those that want to paint Australia as an extremely racist country. It's a problem today, as it was 100 years ago.

It makes utter sense to me that some children over the decades have been spared more abuse by removing them from dangerous situations. But being able to identify all child removal as racist government policy versus some child removal for protection purposes would blur the lines, in my opinion.

Naturally, there are bellicose bloviators like you, who want to scream that everything is either black or white.

Having actually cared for Aboriginal children as a foster carer this is still true today. No doubt there were children removed cruelly and unjustly in the past.

There are a number of children that remain in horrendous situations because of over-sensitivity by government departments to the "stolen generation" and fears of being labelled racist being put in front of the welfare of children.

But then the sad plight of many indigenous kids in this country is symptomatic of a much bigger issue.

Whether you like him or not, Goodes has refused to be a victim, and if that catches on then he is a positive influence for Aboriginal people.

Edited June 2, 2015 by jabberwocky

[hemingway 7,627]

Still intrigued why this is in a football forum area...and not over in the political section..aka "general"....just saying

That's what makes this site interesting. W

[hemingway 7,627]

would be incredibly boring otherwise. love the honesty and diversity of opinion such as on this thread. may it long continue and not be censored or controlled by the moderators.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

Having actually cared for Aboriginal children as a foster carer this is still true today. No doubt there were children removed cruelly and unjustly in the past.

There are a number of children that remain in horrendous situations because of over-sensitivity by government departments to the "stolen generation" and fears of being labelled racist being put in front of the welfare of children.

But then the sad plight of many indigenous kids in this country is symptomatic of a much bigger issue.

Whether you like him or not, Goodes has refused to be a victim, and if that catches on then he is a positive influence for Aboriginal people.

I agree. I find it interesting that he often accused of 'playing the victim' simply because he passionately advocates for social change.

[beelzebub 23,347]

would be incredibly boring otherwise. love the honesty and diversity of opinion such as on this thread. may it long continue and not be censored or controlled by the moderators.

yeah...but its not really football. Its politics. Theres a whole other forum for that..and people can still read and write there...amazing really

[Little Goffy 14,521]

I'd just like to take a moment to say I am disappointed in myself for going too far on the 'Irish' thing. I try not to get riled up, but I clearly overstepped.

I still maintain that the comparison someone made between the hard history of the Irish and the continuing debacle of the treatment of Indigenous Australians was absurd, and frankly gross considering the material efforts at 'reconciliation' between the British and Irish traditions int he last 80 years or so.

I do also understand that Ireland was the test case; the Irish people were the first and longest victims of the most noxious aspects of the British Empire's attitude of superiority, disdain, exploitation and abuse.

So, if I may, I'd like to restate what I was getting at, but in a more appropriate way;

"In Australia, Aboriginal people would dream of attaining the level of rights, inclusion and assumption of equality that Irish people have attained through their own long and painful process of reconciliation. Indeed, this is all that reconciliation really seeks and it is shameful that it has been made so hard."

On a similar note, I'm a bit disappointed by people jumping on ProDee's declaration that he had done some more reading and now has enough doubt about the Stolen Generation subject that he is going to keep looking into it. The people who have demanded he immediately and totally reverse his past position do nothing but remind him of why it never seemed worth the trouble to engage with the 'other side' before.

[binman 42,896]

Whether you like him or not, Goodes has refused to be a victim, and if that catches on then he is a positive influence for Aboriginal people.

It's funny you shopuld say this Jabber. One of the curious things for me on this thread and in broader online chatter has been the idea put forward by some (often in the context of why is booed and why he is disliked) that Goodes has been playing the 'victim card'. Very strange because like you i think the opposite is true.

Another curious things is people (like Matthew Lloyd of FC last night) saying other Aboriginal players don't get booed so and implying that the fact he does therefore cannot be about race. Strange.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Chris Rock

"The whole country’s got a f..d up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are f...ing idiots. Democrats are f...ing idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots.
Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a f...ing fool. Everybody, nah, nah, nah, everybody is so busy wanting to be down with a gang! I’m a conservative! I’m a liberal! I’m a conservative! It’s [censored]!

Be a f...ing person. Listen. Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion.

No normal decent person is one thing. OK!?! I got some [censored] I’m conservative about, I got some [censored] I’m liberal about."

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

Chris Rock

"The whole country’s got a f..d up mentality. We all got a gang mentality. Republicans are f...ing idiots. Democrats are f...ing idiots. Conservatives are idiots and liberals are idiots.

Anyone who makes up their mind before they hear the issue is a f...ing fool. Everybody, nah, nah, nah, everybody is so busy wanting to be down with a gang! I’m a conservative! I’m a liberal! I’m a conservative! It’s [censored]!

Be a f...ing person. Listen. Let it swirl around your head. Then form your opinion.

No normal decent person is one thing. OK!?! I got some [censored] I’m conservative about, I got some [censored] I’m liberal about."

I quoted this earlier in the thread - great minds hey

[AzzKikA 2,371]

I also have been doing a lot of reading on the plight the Indigenous people of Australia faced when the white man first came to this country and the atrocities thereafter. I have also read a lot about what the government has tried to do for them over the years as well to try to get them to be a better functioning community.

While I cannot begin to understand what they feel, I still stand by my remarks that many are still waiting for the white man to fix things for them and again I cannot understand why that is. Is it hate for the white man, fear, no self belief? What is holding them back from becoming the people they dream to be?

[deefrag 277]

The Empire strikes back . . . .

[old dee 23,787]

Still intrigued why this is in a football forum area...and not over in the political section..aka "general"....just saying

Yep now at 20 pages of yes he is a saint and no he is not.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Yep now at 20 pages of yes he is a saint and no he is not.

Actually this is a great thread, and the last few pages have had people learning, examining and re-examining views, which have been articulated pretty respectfully.