all of your questions are based on the premise that EFC cheated. Do you expect me to debate with that as an assumption? Really?

I don't support drugs in sport, no. But as it stands we have one out of one decision which didn't find the players guilty...

Lance I seriously hope EFC did not cheat for the sake of the international reputation of our sports people. so assuming they did not cheat.

Have you asked EfC what the truth is? I thought you may have a greater insight than myself. I assume you have not

Do you honestly believe they had no records of a legal drug program? As this relates to your belief I cannot assume but if you believed they had none I would seriously question how anyone would justify any action they take.

Do you believe the world body can allow any sports person to undertake an illegal drug program and ignore it on the basis that there are no records?

Again a question that relates to your belief so there is no assumption.

Do you think the cost of testing every athlete for drugs every time they perform is worth it just to ensure that no athlete can use that excuse? again no assumption of guilt or innocence required but I guess a follow up question would be what testing regime would you think Ok? Trust Mick is not an option.

So thanks for confirming you dont support drugs in sport, I'm probably a bit more lenient than you as i think there is a place for their use but it does need to be transparent but theres a whole lot of other philosophical discussion required on that. I did indicate that was all for now due to the difficulties in presenting complex argument in a compressed environment and especially where there is unlikely to be resolution without a decision from a higher body, You know the appeal process that Hird undertook and is now to be finally arbitrated. I wonder if Danks will reveal all to this body as he has constantly maintained and we can then players included all rest easy. I do not have to apologise to Hirdy and will be sorry that he has not seen the value in recording his processes.

Look its probably not worth trying to second guess any of this so until I am driven by frustration to comment further I will at least enjoy your contribution.

of course you can.

I guess what you call records and what I call records differs somewhat, especially given you think records that cant even be produced in defence of the players are actually records, and satisfy being called records of a legal program.

If this wasn't the case your answer to the question "Do you honestly believe they had no records of a legal drug program?" would need to change.

Given me a good laugh there! pot kettle comes to mind!

What I am asking is very simple, Dank says he has records to clear the players, did do so many times before saying Essendon had the records recently. If you were the bombers, would you not chase those records and do everything possible to get your hands on them in order to clear you players? Why didn't they?

I answered the question in the very post you just quoted. It's right there.

Lance is smart ar$e. Refuses to answer real questions and dances around the facts.

Not worth the time. Don't argue with fools or trolls! I am afraid lance is both.

I answered the question in the very post you just quoted. It's right there.

So you are saying the club put their own reputation, by not opening another legal case, above that of the possibility of clearing the players? That's a great club you support, with wonderful morals!

Lance is smart ar$e. Refuses to answer real questions and dances around the facts.

Not worth the time. Don't argue with fools or trolls! I am afraid lance is both.

Like every Essendon supporter. Bunch of morons more concerned about protecting James than anything else. Pretty pathetic to see adults worship another adult so obsessively

Lance is smart ar$e. Refuses to answer real questions and dances around the facts.

Not worth the time. Don't argue with fools or trolls! I am afraid lance is both.

But it is fun picking it all apart without him realising it

Lance is smart ar$e. Refuses to answer real questions and dances around the facts.

Not worth the time. Don't argue with fools or trolls! I am afraid lance is both.

Agree, posters are falling into the trap of his agenda by engaging him.

Like every Essendon supporter. Bunch of morons more concerned about protecting James than anything else. Pretty pathetic to see adults worship another adult so obsessively

I disagree HH, some EFC supporters I know hate what the club has done and will not return until Hird and co are gone. I agree that many are like the Jonestown zealots. Many died at the hands of another Jim.

right.

No.

No. That's a flawed question since there was never "no records"

No. Clearly not since I've already stated in this thread my opinion it should be considered a new class of ADRV

Irrelelevant and a strawman argument, see previous response

No

There you go

Sorry Lance responded to your first dismissive response. As things are so black and white in what is a complex argument as others have pointed out I dont think there is any point in going further

Good luck.

Sorry Lance responded to your first dismissive response. As things are so black and white in what is a complex argument as others have pointed out I dont think there is any point in going further

Good luck.

having read your previous post I apologise if I misread the tone of your posts with the questions.

Out of interest, have you racked up any games for the mighty Bushrangers?

As I understand cards13 I think they can.

Correct me if wrong.

Lance is smart ar$e. Refuses to answer real questions and dances around the facts.

Not worth the time. Don't argue with fools or trolls! I am afraid lance is both.

I say boot the bozo....

Around and around in circles we go.

Whether or not the players are found guilty, what records were kept and what weren't, who leaked what to the media, who's at fault for delays in the proceedings, whether 'Lance' is a stooge or 'Lance' isn't, what level of proof CAS require, what AD said on the phone to Evans, whether Hird and his misses are psychopaths or not............etc. etc. etc....

Until the EFC can say what the players were given then this really will never be over. To me that's the real issue...What were the players given.

Lance obviously loves the kerfuffle facts and unlike sanityprevails is actually pretty good at trolling, in large part due to the fact that he raises some valid points.

One of these is that it remains a possibility that the players are in fact innocent of taking PEDs. Yes, based on what is public knowledge on the balance of probabilities it would appear the players took PEDs. However much of that info is scuttlebutt and unreliable and few if any on these board would have been privy to the evidence presented at the tribunal.

So despite some people's furious rejection of any idea the players might be innocent, it remains one of the possibilities. Ipso facto it remains possible that WADA will not be able to mount a successful case. Indeed it remains a possibility that even if the players did take PEDs ASADA may still not be able to to mount a successful case.

I disagree HH, some EFC supporters I know hate what the club has done and will not return until Hird and co are gone.

True, there are a few smart Bomber fans around with a moral compass.

Its just the other 97% that are the problem.

Around and around in circles we go.

Whether or not the players are found guilty, what records were kept and what weren't, who leaked what to the media, who's at fault for delays in the proceedings, whether 'Lance' is a stooge or 'Lance' isn't, what level of proof CAS require, what AD said on the phone to Evans, whether Hird and his misses are psychopaths or not............etc. etc. etc....

Until the EFC can say what the players were given then this really will never be over. To me that's the real issue...What were the players given.

I agree with this totally. in fact i'll hand it to Caro, she has never wavered from this very point ie it is about and the health and welfare of the players. Workcover really should have done something about this by now

Lance is smart ar$e. Refuses to answer real questions and dances around the facts.

Not worth the time. Don't argue with fools or trolls! I am afraid lance is both.

lance is just behaving like the troll he is. It is really not worth arguing with him. He will never be convinced, and no matter what is said he will dream up some other excuse for Essendon's and Hird's unconscionable behaviour.

We have got what we want ie an unbiased, independent professional tribunal who will examine all the facts dispassionately and draw appropriate conclusion. That is all we could ever ask. I, for one, will unreservedly accept whatever the verdict happens to be.

I wonder if Lance will. Somehow I doubt it.

He is best ignored...

lance is just behaving like the troll he is. It is really not with arguing with him.he will never be convinced, and no matter what is said he will dream up some other excuse foe Essendon's and Hird's unconscionable behaviour.

We have got what we want ie an unbiased, independent professional tribunal who will examine all the facts dispassionately and draw appropriate conclusion. That is all we could ever ask. I for one will unreservedly accept whatever the verdict happens to be.

I wonder if Lance will. Somehow I doubt it.

He is best ignored...

did you miss this from a few pages ago?

I haven't posted there since this whole thing began actually. Perhaps one or two posts at most.

I don't think WADA need to be held accountable now. They are a review body who are tasked with exactly this, and I for one have no issue with them exercising that right, even though it's a pain in the arse. You will get EFC supporters complaining about the de novo nature of the trial, and whilst there are signficant problems with that process imo it has to be that way, precisely so local bodies can't "appeal-proof" findings.

So, WADA are merely doing what they are absolutely entitled to do, and I personally have said all along if they think an appeal is needed they should appeal. It's actually good because if they get off again all the conspiracy theorists can STFU. We'll see how it turns out I guess.

I want my players to face a fair investiation and trial, and whilst acknowledging significant blatant failings with the club, I am unprepared to hang them on skerricks of evidence leaked to the media in a PR war and I'm willing to wait until the end of the process, upon which time I'll accept the umpires decision whatever it may be. Which, it has to be said, is a lot more than a lot of opposition supporters have been willing to concede.

....

So despite some people's furious rejection of any idea the players might be innocent, it remains one of the possibilities. Ipso facto it remains possible that WADA will not be able to mount a successful case. Indeed it remains a possibility that even if the players did take PEDs ASADA may still not be able to to mount a successful case.

Of course you are right binman - it is possible that the players are innocent (in at least some sense) and it is even just possible that the club is innocent. But what are the odds, and on the latter especially? I'm not sure that I can type that may zeros after the first digit.

If the EFC kept records or not, it doesnt matter. ASADA said they [EFC] took TB4 and EFC said they took the good one, thyo whatever, yet can ANYBODY answer me this! How did the [EFC] pay for the good stuff?

They payed for one program and one program only, the one out of China, which they were invoiced and payed for.

Where did this good one come from and where did they pay for it?

Do they keep two sets of books? Money under the counter? WHERE!

Loves and kisses to Lance, had lunch with an Essendon supporter last Tuesday, he is embarrassed of them now. Wont go to games and he is from a long standing Essendon dynasty. A full member, his father a member since the 50s.

MY question remains, Lance where did the money come from?

Of course you are right binman - it is possible that the players are innocent (in at least some sense) and it is even just possible that the club is innocent. But what are the odds, and on the latter especially? I'm not sure that I can type that may zeros after the first digit.

I have waited for years to use the word googolplex.

Googolplex: 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,

000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, to 1

Or 10^googol or equivalently, 10^(10100). Written out in ordinary decimal notation, it is 1 followed by 10¹⁰⁰ zeroes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Googolplex

They're the odds.

having read your previous post I apologise if I misread the tone of your posts with the questions.

Out of interest, have you racked up any games for the mighty Bushrangers?

Not me

My life has been one of following footy. As an old Traralgon boy

I always say that I played with Kelvin Templeton and Bernie Quinlan

Yes Tennis with Kelvin and Basketball with Bernie.

I do play tennis still with Graeme Cordy ex swans and take a keen interest in the Bushies (get the chance to wear the red and blue) Bushies tracking pretty well this season being 5 and one losing only to top side and sitting second.

Sorry to get distracted No point in trying to solve the Essendon imbroglio