We r not very good, we have castoffs in vince, cross, newton et al and some young talent which will take 2 to 3 years to show value, viney is gutsy but undersized imo, Hogan too young to dominate yet, jury still out on that little Italian, can't remember name too many grandma's slippers, frost no replacement for frawley as yet, all in all we will struggle in 2015 my friends

Who is the little Italian? Toumpas is Greek, Salem is Lebanese, Petracca?

Who is the little Italian? Toumpas is Greek, Salem is Lebanese, Petracca?

Who is the little Italian? Toumpas is Greek, Salem is Lebanese, Petracca?

Who is the little Italian? Toumpas is Greek, Salem is Lebanese, Petracca?

toumpas

toumpas

Toumpas = Greek

Petracca = Italian (and the jury hasn't even yet retired, let alone still out)

I agree we have really struggled with a centre bounce setup or strategy if you like over the past 10 years. The Cats and the Hawks not only have elite players in the middle but also a setup and set play as you elude to. The Hawks setup will have an insider like Sewell get first touch out to Mitchell who will have it for a nano second before it is passed off to Burgoyne, Hodge, Lewis etc, etc. they have a set up and set plays. I note Ratten is one of their coaches and the last time we had any idea of midfield play was when he was at MFC.

The norm for MFC is to have nothing more at the centre bounce than see ball, get ball and kick.? Maybe we started to see some semblance of a midfield setup last year. I think Bailey tried to emulate Geelong in 2010/11 but didn't have the cattle or the strategic knowledge and help to make it work. In 2010 with Maloney, Junior, Jones, and help from Bruce, Green, Scully, Trengove and Sylvia and Jamar dominating the ruck we managed to rag doll some interstate sides and hold our own against the better sides in the midfield. After that we turned to Shyte in the middle,no system that I could see, just barge through, pick it and kick if possible.

Can we poach Ratten back? I note our midfield coach is Ben Mathews. is he any good because as you say it is not just about elite players, it is about a stoppage setup and strategy! Maybe with our new talent it starts to happen. Fingers crossed because if we start to dominate clearances everything else will fall into place. Suddenly forwards will play better because the ball is being delivered better and more often.

The Cats are poor at centre bounces, they've used rebound off HB as their first line of attack.

Anyone that thinks Viney does not need to improve has seriously low expectations. He performed as second year should last year but his overall season was not the levels I expected. I suspect as a lot of players do in their third year that he will show a significant increase in his ability to run out games. I also suspect this will improve his disposal which was iffy alot of last year more out of tiring rather than mechanics.

I think he is about half the player he will become and think he will make a big leap forward this year.

Just on Viney. He missed a fair chunk of the pre season and only got going around Nab Cup last year.

Bit of perspective please.

Just on Viney. He missed a fair chunk of the pre season and only got going around Nab Cup last year.

Bit of perspective please.

My post is not a criticism it is more so that whilst he is currently a valuable member of the team I expect he will reach much greater heights.

The Cats are poor at centre bounces, they've used rebound off HB as their first line of attack.

Yes and no but the key is and yes we're all aware that what makes them so good is their back flankers can use the footy as can their forward flankers. From reading training reports and other posts it seems we are heading down that track. Sounds like players are being told you need to be dual position, about bloody time.

Anyone that thinks Viney does not need to improve has seriously low expectations. He performed as second year should last year but his overall season was not the levels I expected. I suspect as a lot of players do in their third year that he will show a significant increase in his ability to run out games. I also suspect this will improve his disposal which was iffy alot of last year more out of tiring rather than mechanics.

I think he is about half the player he will become and think he will make a big leap forward this year.

Dont you worry about Viney.. This kid will be an absolute champion! Just try and imagine what he would be like if he played in a good team?

Dont you worry about Viney.. This kid will be an absolute champion! Just try and imagine what he would be like if he played in a good team?

Ahh the old he 'would be a much better player in a good team'..

Biggest myth in football history.

My post is not a criticism it is more so that whilst he is currently a valuable member of the team I expect he will reach much greater heights.

Agree, I think he has a lot of improvement left.

Dont you worry about Viney.. This kid will be an absolute champion! Just try and imagine what he would be like if he played in a good team?

I don't think anyones worried about Viney, the discussion is more about how much room for improvement he has. He looks to be ticking along ok to me.

Just on Viney. He missed a fair chunk of the pre season and only got going around Nab Cup last year.

Bit of perspective please.

Golden ticket

Ahh the old he 'would be a much better player in a good team'..

Biggest myth in football history.

BS it obviously true

Quality teammates attract the opposition's attention and resources and they set up plays to the advantage of their teammates. Quality teams have all their systems running properly. It is at its most obvious when you are talking about young midfielders

How can you even argue this

BS it obviously true

Quality teammates attract the opposition's attention and resources and they set up plays to the advantage of their teammates. Quality teams have all their systems running properly. It is at its most obvious when you are talking about young midfielders

How can you even argue this

If thats case why hasn't Sylvia become the gun player he is suppose to while he is in a 'top side' now. Alot of people argued he would be a potential brownlow medalist if he was in a good team. Struggled in the WAFL all year.

Explain what happened to pick 4 Cale Morton at West Coast? Not even Woosha could turn this kid around. Again struggled in the WAFL like Sylvia.

We all thought Gysberts was gonna prosper at North Melbourne? At the time alot of people suggested we had made a big mistake trading him for Pedersen. Couldn't even crack one game.

Travis Johnstone struggled at Brisbane. Enough side.

4 really talented players we all agreed that in much better sides they would be gun players. Again they all failed. Infact just shows talent alone wont turn you into a star player.

Again its a myth. You either apply yourself or you dont.

If thats case why hasn't Sylvia become the gun player he is suppose to while he is in a 'top side' now. Alot of people argued he would be a potential brownlow medalist if he was in a good team. Struggled in the WAFL all year.

Explain what happened to pick 4 Cale Morton at West Coast? Not even Woosha could turn this kid around. Again struggled in the WAFL like Sylvia.

We all thought Gysberts was gonna prosper at North Melbourne? At the time alot of people suggested we had made a big mistake trading him for Pedersen. Couldn't even crack one game.

Travis Johnstone struggled at Brisbane. Enough side.

4 really talented players we all agreed that in much better sides they would be gun players. Again they all failed. Infact just shows talent alone wont turn you into a star player.

Again its a myth. You either apply yourself or you dont.

Your argument effectively argues that our most consistently effective low draft pick of a decade has been Watts who has played as a teammate with each of the above and still has an important role in Roos forward plans!

I chucked this on a Facebook page recently. Our depth chart post draft and positions based on this.

Two things I'd change, 1. Grimes out now he isn't captain, 2. Kent in (oversight when creating this the first time)

Also Gawn, Spencer and King should be found under 'depth'

What a great post. Thanks.

Your argument effectively argues that our most consistently effective low draft pick of a decade has been Watts who has played as a teammate with each of the above and still has an important role in Roos forward plans!

Watts is a tricky one for mine CBDees, some could argue every team has their out side players, some have argued on here even the Hawks have have theirs, but the difference is the outside players at teams like the Hawks run to position when setting up their zone, can lay an effective tackle, get the hard ball when needed. I gave an example in the "surprise packet thread" of how Watts continues to frustrate me. I don't expect Stretch or ANB to play seniors this year but if they show a fair bit in the reserves and Petracca and Brayshaw can show glimpse of why they came so hyped and Mitchie, Salem, Toumpas and Newton can take the next step I would seriously consider packaging up Watts and Grimes or just Watts in an attempt to secure a first round/ possibly top ten pick. They are both around that 23/24 age mark. I think we will rise up the ladder this year and if a trade like that was to happen it again gives us numerous options in the draft, remembering we have nailed the last two. You are required to draft a minimum number of kids per year, so if we keep the picks they might as well be first rounders and if the above mentioned players do take the next step I think Grimes will struggle to get s game.

Watts is a tricky one for mine CBDees, some could argue every team has their out side players, some have argued on here even the Hawks have have theirs, but the difference is the outside players at teams like the Hawks run to position when setting up their zone, can lay an effective tackle, get the hard ball when needed. I gave an example in the "surprise packet thread" of how Watts continues to frustrate me. I don't expect Stretch or ANB to play seniors this year but if they show a fair bit in the reserves and Petracca and Brayshaw can show glimpse of why they came so hyped and Mitchie, Salem, Toumpas and Newton can take the next step I would seriously consider packaging up Watts and Grimes or just Watts in an attempt to secure a first round/ possibly top ten pick. They are both around that 23/24 age mark. I think we will rise up the ladder this year and if a trade like that was to happen it again gives us numerous options in the draft, remembering we have nailed the last two. You are required to draft a minimum number of kids per year, so if we keep the picks they might as well be first rounders and if the above mentioned players do take the next step I think Grimes will struggle to get s game.

Much better that, for the first time in ages, many players have cause for concern because at last we have genuine competition for spots (even in the midfield). This contrasts starkly from recent years when we were struggling to field a team!

What a great post. Thanks.

It's good... but oddly he makes no mention of Gawn,Spencer or Kent once he gets to team-naming bit

Are you serious? I remember back then how much everyone enjoyed having a whinge about this bc NJ would occasionally get a holding the ball decision against him. Boo-hoo. I argued at the time that the fact he kept doing was indicative of the instructions his coaches had given him, and that as he gained experience and body mass he would stop getting caught holding it and shed the would-be-tacklers, winning us hardball gets and first use of the pill from stoppages. Of course I was completely right about that and years later I read the same shortsighted criticism of Viney! The ability to stand up under pressure, and burst through a tackle in heavy congestion is just about the no.1 most valuable asset of any footballer IMHO. Think of players like J.Selwood and Mitchell, this is what separates them as players. The only way to become a master at it is to keep practicing it. I would be shattered to learn that anybody would try to coach it out of a kid like Viney, as this skill is what will distinguish him from being an also-ran to a league elite.

I totally disagree. Jones main fault and the reason he is not a true elite player is his lack of awareness of where to run to avoid the next tackle. His physique and skills are not that different from G Ablett. It's his attempts to barge through that let him down. Viney is developing a similar problem. His other problem is that he is too small to do the things he's trying to do. His dad was a much better size for an afl player.

I totally disagree. Jones main fault and the reason he is not a true elite player is his lack of awareness of where to run to avoid the next tackle. His physique and skills are not that different from G Ablett. It's his attempts to barge through that let him down. Viney is developing a similar problem. His other problem is that he is too small to do the things he's trying to do. His dad was a much better size for an afl player.

I think Jones problem is more that at times he can get caught trying to do too much rather than giving off the first option, but at the same time i am sure it is coached that if you dont think you are able to get the ball out effectively then barge and take the stoppage as a win.

Viney will continue to get bigger and stronger and was able to barge through players which were larger than him, now he needs to use the 10m of exceptional acceleration he has to try and break away from the pack rather than banging into opponents in front of him

I totally disagree. Jones main fault and the reason he is not a true elite player is his lack of awareness of where to run to avoid the next tackle. His physique and skills are not that different from G Ablett. It's his attempts to barge through that let him downr.

And that would be completely correct if written 3 years ago. Nathan has slowly improved every aspect of his game including his decision making. He isn't ever going to be Ablett but to tell you the truth I never thought he would be as good of a Jones that he is.

I look forward to seeing how he improves again this season

And that would be completely correct if written 3 years ago. Nathan has slowly improved every aspect of his game including his decision making. He isn't ever going to be Ablett but to tell you the truth I never thought he would be as good of a Jones that he is.

I look forward to seeing how he improves again this season

exactly - he hardly ever gets caught now, except for those ones where you are blanketed a quarter of a second after you take possession and they call it 'prior' (the ones nobody in the whole country likes to see paid but they keep happening regularly)

My team was 2016 not 2015.

I'd expect Cross to have a big roll in 2015 again.

A super size salad roll...

exactly - he hardly ever gets caught now, except for those ones where you are blanketed a quarter of a second after you take possession and they call it 'prior' (the ones nobody in the whole country likes to see paid but they keep happening regularly)

Most good players get the ball and burst 3-10 steps to put themselves in a position to deliver the ball cleanly. A few years ago under Bailey our guys would handball straight away to a stationary target in a worse position! We want players to burst clear and hit someone on the spread, Its what all our training is about once we have the ball. NJ is pretty good at it now I agree - possibly because he is better at it but also I think players a spreading better and giving him better options.