Good to see more passion entering the debate.

Losing is for losers - seriously aren't we sick of being losers.

I know the list is still far from up to scratch - but the club has to start somewhere and every win and every rung higher up the ladder is a step in the right direction - the alternative isn't an alternative.

  On 28/07/2014 at 04:17, ijbfossil said:

Good to see more passion entering the debate.

Losing is for losers - seriously aren't we sick of being losers.

I know the list is still far from up to scratch - but the club has to start somewhere and every win and every rung higher up the ladder is a step in the right direction - the alternative isn't an alternative.

We are losers.

The alternative is reality.

Beating the Lions and GWS leaves us 6 and 16.

Yay...

Beat the Hawks, and/or WCE, and/or NM and you have my attention - beat the Lions and GWS and you have no ground gained and no pride restored.

  On 27/07/2014 at 15:27, robbiefrom13 said:

We need some punch-in-the-air triumphelse finishes, in this wreck of a season.

We were robbed of it last week by the umpires. That would have been a heartening victory for everyone.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:13, why you little said:

You are merely hoping.

"It" hasn't happened yet.

We are still down the bottom.

After the Essendrug game i thought the players had finally woken but it was merely to turn over & go back to sleep.

How am I merely hoping and don't presume to know what I think. I told you earlier in the year Meth Coast were front runners and very over rated despite our Round 2 capitulation.

Turn over and go to sleep after the Essendon game, please if you call being asleep against the Dogs and Port you are back on the choof.

If you are telling me Carlton, Richmond, Meth Coast, GWS, Brissy and Saints are way ahead of us, please give me a run down on their lists

  On 28/07/2014 at 00:42, old dee said:

No struggling to get past your continual put down of anyone with a different view

"Putdown"? Do you not understand what I said?

Or do you disagree that you are incessantly negative?

If you don't think that assessing our assets against the poor return we've received for other assets in the past isn't negative, then that's a problem you need to sort out, not anyone else.

  On 28/07/2014 at 04:16, rpfc said:

Are you actively not comprehending what people are saying?

Who 'wants' to win the spoon? Who is 'happy' to be where we are?

A few of us are saying that we are one of those deckchairs on the Titanic and what does it matter how we are shuffled? Another terrible finish is assured.

Nothing is ever 'pure and simple' and neither is this.

And you seem to be enamoured with what others think about the club. Why? The AFL isn't a peer review system - it's a zero sum game where no-one gives an inch nor cares what others think about what they are doing - except Dees supporters are always worried about what the footy world is going to think...

Do you want to try again?

This time, leave my whole post in so as my words are not taken out of context. To edit and thereby isolating one part out of a post is poor form. You should know that. You're effectively putting words into my mouth by editing the way you did.

By the way, I never edit a post when I quote it. (I do sometimes highlight a part of a post)

The bad far outweighs the good if we win another wooden spoon.

And at least people like 'stuie' are honest with their intentions. He may it quite clear that he wants a better spot in the draft (and with it, more bargaining power) Good on him for saying what a lot of others might be a quite hesitant to say.

Now, I don't share stuie's thoughts and have an almost opposite view. I simply don't care about a better placed draft pick and never have. That doesn't make either of us right or wrong - it's just shared opinions.

And yeah, I do care about our standing in the football community - it's sport for crying out loud. What the hell are we here for? For those who don't care - please yourself.

But don't tell me that this "I don't care" argument is not draft pick related.

It is.

Nope. It's not draft related.

I don't care... therefore if there is a choice of getting an earlier pick, then I'll take it.

If I cared where we finish in the bottom 6 or 8, then I wouldn't prefer a better pick.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:59, Macca said:

If we do keep losing and "win" the spoon, some of those same people who voted 1-3 will almost certainly lash out - you can't have it both ways - if you want the spoon, you want the team to lose.

So ... take the losses* (if they come) and don't moan about it. Actually, by rights, you should be quite annoyed if we win any of the last 5 games. Make sure you let us all know about your annoyance if that does happen.

Let's not beat around the bush here, saying "I don't care" effectively means that you don't want the team to win any more games - you're "happy" to lose. Pure and simple.

Tell your kids, tell all your friends, family and work colleagues that you don't care if Melbourne wins the spoon. Might make for a lively conversation so make sure you're ready

*In an ideal world, we win 4 of our last 5 games but realistically, that's a big ask - it's entirely possible though. Just imagine how we'd all feel if that were to happen? It would give us some real hope for the future.

What hope does winning another spoon give you? (18th from 18) ... a chance to wait 3-6 years to see if our draft pick is any good or not. Unless we trade that pick of course - but what are the chances of that happening? Besides, pick 3,4 or 5 could be a much better player than pick 1 anyway.

Be careful what you wish for.

There you go. I quoted the whole thing for you.

Aligning "not caring" to "wanting" is just ridiculous. The steps forward we have made this year will not suddenly disappear into thin air if we finish last. Players will still have learnt and improved. The FD structure will still have improved. The FD will not suddenly second guess itself about which players are worth keeping. The tangible areas in which we have improved, that all smart footy watchers have observed and noted will still be there. On top of that, win or lose, we still have a very long way to go. What happens in the next 5 weeks by us and the other clubs around us doesn't change that much. There will still be a lot of work to do.

I voted 3 because I don't like to see us lose BUT what's happens in the remaining 5 weeks of 2014 will have very little effect either way in our journey to becoming a better footy club. Roos and Co. will make whatever outcome a positive learning outcome for the players and club.

One thing I find funny about one of the opinions doing the rounds here: 'I'll get excited if we knock off the Hawks or Roos' is that it is qualified about how we are a bad team. Yes, we are a weak team. To improve, let's set and achieve realistic tasks!
How about we do the things that should be expected of us (beating two weaker interstate teams in Melbourne) and then move onto the more difficult ones (knocking off a two time premiership team gearing up for the finals)?
Macca's right. If you don't care about getting off the bottom of the ladder at all, it is draft related and both hilarious and infuriating at the same time. What exactly did we get dragged through hell for if we didn't learn the lessons of 2008-2012?
Thank god PR and PJ are the leading lights of this football club as I know that they won't be pushing that kind of thinking!

  On 28/07/2014 at 04:59, S_T said:

There you go. I quoted the whole thing for you.

I edited your post because of your condescending opening line.

If you want to engage, kindly put your manners back in.

  On 28/07/2014 at 04:46, Macca said:

But don't tell me that this "I don't care" argument is not draft pick related.

It is.

Not in my mind. I don't care because I have seen enough improvement and competitiveness to realise we could have won more games with a little more talent and luck. Whether 16 or 18 or whatever, the position on the ladder is related to how many 'flukes' other bottom teams have pulled off etc.

If I was sure that a wooden spoon would somehow affect the club in the future, then I might be more concerned, but since I'm not sure of that, I don't really care. Some see that as a weak supporter/bad attitude/all that is wrong with the supporters, I see it as realism.

Oh, please. It would mean soooo much if you would "engage" with me......

  On 28/07/2014 at 05:06, S_T said:

Oh, please. It would mean soooo much if you would "engage" with me......

How old are you? 15?

Maybe for you

But do you speak for all the the other "I don't care" people? ... like stuie and a few others on this thread.

Not caring about finishing last is draft pick related - there are levels of importance of wanting that no.1 draft pick but nonetheless, the lure is there and it's why a number of people voted the way they have (IMO)

... and it's quite ok to think that way. I just don't agree.

By the way, if we didn't have a draft, do people honestly think that 43% of posters would still have an "I don't care" attitude about finishing on the bottom of the ladder?

  On 28/07/2014 at 05:04, sue said:

Not in my mind. I don't care because I have seen enough improvement and competitiveness to realise we could have won more games with a little more talent and luck. Whether 16 or 18 or whatever, the position on the ladder is related to how many 'flukes' other bottom teams have pulled off etc.

If I was sure that a wooden spoon would somehow affect the club in the future, then I might be more concerned, but since I'm not sure of that, I don't really care. Some see that as a weak supporter/bad attitude/all that is wrong with the supporters, I see it as realism.

Spot on Sue.

  On 28/07/2014 at 05:04, sue said:

Not in my mind. I don't care because I have seen enough improvement and competitiveness to realise we could have won more games with a little more talent and luck. Whether 16 or 18 or whatever, the position on the ladder is related to how many 'flukes' other bottom teams have pulled off etc.

If I was sure that a wooden spoon would somehow affect the club in the future, then I might be more concerned, but since I'm not sure of that, I don't really care. Some see that as a weak supporter/bad attitude/all that is wrong with the supporters, I see it as realism.

I was obviously not being specific to any one particular person.

There would of course be a few who are happy to win the wooden spoon and with it, all the accolades that come with winning that prized possession.

In all seriousness, winning the spoon won't be helping the club on an overall basis - you'd only have to ask PJ or Roos about that one. Do you reckon that either of those men would have an "I don't care" attitude?

I'll say it again, I believe this has been our best year (so far) since 2006 - we just have to finish off well.

Edit: Our most recent spoons were in '08 & '09 - whilst it must be acknowledged that the club was embarking on a campaign of re-building with youth, it should also be acknowledged that we weren't able to trade in any top players in both those off seasons (following those 2 years)

  On 28/07/2014 at 04:20, rpfc said:

We are losers.

The alternative is reality.

Beating the Lions and GWS leaves us 6 and 16.

Yay...

Beat the Hawks, and/or WCE, and/or NM and you have my attention - beat the Lions and GWS and you have no ground gained and no pride restored.

I understand that, but I feel winning is something the players need to start wanting more than anything. Whether it's against 1st or 18th. I agree that we'd get more out of a close loss to the Hawks than a win over GWS, but a win is a win and as much as Roos and the players have said, "we're not looking at the wins/losses" it's impossible to ignore.

I want us to beat GWS because there is an element of pride with them. They are still a very young team and they have played some truly deplorable football this year, to lose to them on our home turf to me would hurt the clubs pride and image.

  On 28/07/2014 at 04:25, Machsy said:

"Putdown"? Do you not understand what I said?

Or do you disagree that you are incessantly negative?

If you don't think that assessing our assets against the poor return we've received for other assets in the past isn't negative, then that's a problem you need to sort out, not anyone else.

Hmm you may be right my apology.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:16, S_T said:

The PP now (the rules have changed) is something that is for teams that are miles behind everyone else. The AFL made the right choice given our performances this year.

I don't like to see us lose, but I hate far worse the loser mentality that's wants handouts and special treatment from the AFL in the form of PP's. Equalisation $$'s is very different because the fixture and ground deals are so unequal. We need to draft better, trade better and develop talent better, not put our hand out like a pauper every time things don't go our way.

And please point out where I said I fear ridicule from opposition supporters. I only said any ridicule would be deserved.

Perhaps you should htfu and be patient while we get better the same way the other 17 clubs get better. Through smart decisions and plain old hard work.

whether you would be "upset", "disgraced" or "deservedly humiliated" i couldn't give a fig

the pp still exists. we should apply for one (though you don't have to apply) and then it is up to the commission to decide

it is a legitimate equalisation mechanism there to be used despite your reticense

no-one has had such a bad recent 8 years as us. if we don't qualify they should dump and bury the pp because no-one will ever get one

nothing at all to lose by trying (except your delicate constitution - lol)

  On 28/07/2014 at 06:30, daisycutter said:

whether you would be "upset", "disgraced" or "deservedly humiliated" i couldn't give a fig

the pp still exists. we should apply for one (though you don't have to apply) and then it is up to the commission to decide

it is a legitimate equalisation mechanism there to be used despite your reticense

no-one has had such a bad recent 8 years as us. if we don't qualify they should dump and bury the pp because no-one will ever get one

nothing at all to lose by trying (except your delicate constitution - lol)

A large part of that was self inflected dc

But allowing for that problem it may not be officially dead but I think the PP is actually dead.

I doubt anyone will ever get one again.

Now that is not a reason not to ask but don't hold your breath

I'll speak the words. I want us to try to win every game as hard as we can. Our competitiveness is dramatically improved and I'm enjoying watching a contest when I follow my team again. But, and just but, if we come last and jag the top two picks with Frawley gone, I'll be happy with that. I trust the decisionmakers in our club now now to stuff up good selections, and I trust them to run the season out as hard as they can. All good.

  On 28/07/2014 at 06:36, old dee said:

A large part of that was self inflected dc

But allowing for that problem it may not be officially dead but I think the PP is actually dead.

I doubt anyone will ever get one again.

Now that is not a reason not to ask but don't hold your breath

i think you will find of that if any team has that sort of record under the current drafting equalisation rules that it would be largely self inflicted, kinda par for the course.

the afl (rightly) should be more interested in fixing uncompetitive teams (quickly as possible) than playing blame games. For the benefit of the competition not necessarily any individual club.

agree the pp seems dead, so they should kill it off

but......while it still exists no harm in trying it on. other clubs would.

yiou of all people realise our list needs massive injections and turnover

  On 28/07/2014 at 06:51, daisycutter said:

i think you will find of that if any team has that sort of record under the current drafting equalisation rules that it would be largely self inflicted, kinda par for the course.

the afl (rightly) should be more interested in fixing uncompetitive teams (quickly as possible) than playing blame games. For the benefit of the competition not necessarily any individual club.

agree the pp seems dead, so they should kill it off

but......while it still exists no harm in trying it on. other clubs would.

yiou of all people realise our list needs massive injections and turnover

Don't disagree with that dc I just do not see it happening

  On 28/07/2014 at 06:30, daisycutter said:

whether you would be "upset", "disgraced" or "deservedly humiliated" i couldn't give a fig

the pp still exists. we should apply for one (though you don't have to apply) and then it is up to the commission to decide

it is a legitimate equalisation mechanism there to be used despite your reticense

no-one has had such a bad recent 8 years as us. if we don't qualify they should dump and bury the pp because no-one will ever get one

nothing at all to lose by trying (except your delicate constitution - lol)

I am with you.

If the AFL is offering support or has support we can access then we take it.

Some people are mixing up receiving support due to having a weak list yet trying bloody hard with tanking.

I too would be outraged (again) if we laid down to get said PP.

If we have actually had a dip (as we have in most games this year) and our lack of W's comes from a pitifully weak playing list then we deserve a PP.