Arguably finishing last is the second best position to finish. Finishing first gives you a Premiership. Finishing 2nd to 17th gives you nothing. Finishing 18th gives you first pick in the draft and the first pick in every subsequent round of the draft thereby giving the club the strongest bargaining position.

I still want to win every game between now and the end of the year. But finishing last does come with some compensations.

I think part of our problem praha is that we believe in years gone by that things would just 'come' to us. That the competition would just submit to our dominance and would never improve. It was arrogance of the worst variety. The league is constantly evolving and we need to realize that EVERY club is doing it's best to get better (at least in theory they should be).
Coming into the games against Brisbane and GWS as must wins are absolutely vital. Technically, they are all must wins but 6 wins should see us clear of the spoon. We treat those as 'oh well, preseason is coming up and there are some good kids in the draft' and it will just reinforce the mindset of 2008 on wards.

Draft picks and draft positioning are opportunities. They are not guarantees. We should all know that by now.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:17, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Arguably finishing last is the second best position to finish. Finishing first gives you a Premiership. Finishing 2nd to 17th gives you nothing. Finishing 18th gives you first pick in the draft and the first pick in every subsequent round of the draft thereby giving the club the strongest bargaining position.

I still want to win every game between now and the end of the year. But finishing last does come with some compensations.

Ladies and gentlemen, the illustrious Melbourne supporter *facepalm*

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:19, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I think part of our problem praha is that we believe in years gone by that things would just 'come' to us. That the competition would just submit to our dominance and would never improve. It is arrogance of the worst variety. The league is constantly evolving and we need to realize that EVERY club is doing it's best to get better (at least in theory they should be).

Coming into the games against Brisbane and GWS as must wins are absolutely vital. Technically, they are all must wins but 6 wins should see us clear of the spoon. We treat those as 'oh well, preseason is coming up and there are some good kids in the draft' will just reinforce the mindset of 2008 on wards.

Draft picks and draft positioning are opportunities. They are not guarantees. We should all know that by now.

Exactly. Finishing 16th is not that different from finishing 18th, I get that, but it's naive to suggest the stigma associated with being the absolute worst team in the comp -- by either wins or how many points you concede versus points scored -- isn't that important.

Baby steps, granted, but finishing last would be absolutely disastrous. I can't even imagine how guys like Jones would react mentally to once again being the best player in the worst team in the comp. It must truly wear thin on the mind of someone that works so hard.

The season must absolutely end on a positive note. Finishing last is the antithesis on that prospect.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:12, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Is there not a time when we lose and we don't have to send in a coach who is the love child of David Parkin and the Incredible Hulk to burst the ear drums of weeping players? Or we have to sack the club board? Or feather and tar the playing list?

we lose in a very special way CBF.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:23, praha said:

Ladies and gentlemen, the illustrious Melbourne supporter *facepalm*

Exactly. Finishing 16th is not that different from finishing 18th, I get that, but it's naive to suggest the stigma associated with being the absolute worst team in the comp -- by either wins or how many points you concede versus points scored -- isn't that important.

Baby steps, granted, but finishing last would be absolutely disastrous. I can't even imagine how guys like Jones would react mentally to once again being the best player in the worst team in the comp. It must truly wear thin on the mind of someone that works so hard.

The season must absolutely end on a positive note. Finishing last is the antithesis on that prospect.

Stigma? What stigma? I'm sure you remember Brisbane winning three premierships in a row in 2001-2003. But who came last in those years? No-one actually cares.

I agree that it's important for the players that they have confidence that the team is heading in the right direction. But surely they can see that given how we've performed this year the trajectory is positive.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:34, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Stigma? What stigma? I'm sure you remember Brisbane winning three premierships in a row in 2001-2003. But who came last in those years? No-one actually cares.

I agree that it's important for the players that they have confidence that the team is heading in the right direction. But surely they can see that given how we've performed this year the trajectory is positive.

not if we finish on the bottom of the ladder. That means we are LAST.

Anyone can finish last. It aint hard.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:34, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Stigma? What stigma? I'm sure you remember Brisbane winning three premierships in a row in 2001-2003. But who came last in those years? No-one actually cares.

I agree that it's important for the players that they have confidence that the team is heading in the right direction. But surely they can see that given how we've performed this year the trajectory is positive.

I know Carlton did in '02 and should have in '03. I wonder how much of a stigma that had on them? It basically took away their veneer of success and made them a byword for professional incompetence.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:13, praha said:

If Melbourne has improved "100%" on last year, but finishes below where it finished last year, does that really signify improvement? It might in some capacity, but it suggests those below Melbourne last year improved more year-on-year in 2014, which would be quite damning and a massive indictment on the inroads made.

It's absolutely integral this team beats Brisbane and GWS. They are absolute must-wins. Anyone that can't see that has rock for brains. Being able to step and stand above those on even footing is a step the team needs to make. Performing against North and Hawthorn (and to a lesser extent, those pretenders in Perf) are important, too, but winning those games isn't all that important in developing this team. Winning when the team is expected to win is a hurdle this team simply hasn't been about to surpass, because they've rarely been in that situation.

Absolutely must beat Brisbane this week. The likes of Jones, Frawley, Dunn, Grimes can't let the team lose. It's their time to step up. Been around for far too long to continuously let this team be stepped on.

It really is time for Jones to take the next step.

You are glorifying rubbish games against rubbish opponents with our rubbish team.

That's where my 'rocks for brains' head is at - what if we lose these games? What happens? Are we suddenly a bad team? A worse team? What happened that is so bad - and please don't mention how others see the club...

If the club wants to get something out of the last few games of the season - take it up to Hawthorn, play some football in Perth, and try to be bold and confident against NM.

Winning these piddly little games against terrible teams doesn't interest me as much as that.

I agree that winning a few games towards the seasons end would give the administrators a leg up for attracting sponsors/supporters and marketing campaign for next season however the real problem is lack of talent

Thankfully the dills have been moved on in the recruiting dept and we can have real impact at the coming draft

Ask N Jones if he wants ordinary players next to him in the centre square or champs in the making --pretty sure I know what he will say

Most of our list are honest triers --that works in Amateurs but not Professinal ? sport

As an interstater I would like to have a meeting place to meet with Demon supporters when I get to Melbourne

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:19, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I think part of our problem praha is that we believe in years gone by that things would just 'come' to us. That the competition would just submit to our dominance and would never improve. It was arrogance of the worst variety. The league is constantly evolving and we need to realize that EVERY club is doing it's best to get better (at least in theory they should be).

Coming into the games against Brisbane and GWS as must wins are absolutely vital. Technically, they are all must wins but 6 wins should see us clear of the spoon. We treat those as 'oh well, preseason is coming up and there are some good kids in the draft' will just reinforce the mindset of 2008 on wards.

Draft picks and draft positioning are opportunities. They are not guarantees. We should all know that by now.

thats right.... the mcc will fix all; when its the opposite.

They wouldn't let us grow, wouldn't give us decent facilities, & when we complained & tried to stand on our own 2 feet ; they fenced us out of the centre wicket area, & then after that, sent us to the siberia junction.

we have always been at they're mercy, & they like to keep us in their pockets. can't have a footy team bigger than the cricket club, now can we? nah, they will rule over us with a drip feed, forever & a day.

Or until the AFL becomes equal partners, in the running of the 'G'.

we have become reliant on the MCC, & have never been able to stand on our own, because we don't have outside supporters & a home base. & feral fans. we are stuck to them like a leather remora.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:38, rpfc said:

You are glorifying rubbish games against rubbish opponents with our rubbish team.

That's where my 'rocks for brains' head is at - what if we lose these games? What happens? Are we suddenly a bad team? A worse team? What happened that is so bad - and please don't mention how others see the club...

If the club wants to get something out of the last few games of the season - take it up to Hawthorn, play some football in Perth, and try to be bold and confident against NM.

Winning these piddly little games against terrible teams doesn't interest me as much as that.

I think the issue here are the habits that are being ingrained in the players.

When I talk of the mindset of 2008 on wards, I also talk of this belief that good work habits, competitiveness and mongrel fight can be turned on and off like a tap. You can't go to sleep for six weeks at the end of the year and then just expect that magically 6 months later that some kind of magic will be worked on the track.

Competitiveness, dilgience and tenacity are all the time things. If the players, like some here, don't give a crap about the last little bit of the year thusly finishing on the bottom and infuriatingly don't care about the people who have been good enough to cheer them on in these scratch matches, then that would pizz me off as a supporter. My life doesn't end every time we play and lose on a Saturday and I try to be as philosophical about losses considering the list we have but I would be disheartened about us finishing last considering that I spent the last two years studying full time (and on study aid) and had to pay for my membership out of my savings.

Anyone suggesting that we squib it for the last six rounds makes me understand why that Tiger Dayz bloke pulled up stumps!

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:38, rpfc said:

If the club wants to get something out of the last few games of the season - take it up to Hawthorn, play some football in Perth, and try to be bold and confident against NM.

To do that the club must have a rock solid attitude that it is GOING TO WIN.

We took it up to Hawthorn in Round 2 2011 for one quarter and then got completely butchered

I didn't take that as a positive. This club does not hold the luxury or the ability to dismiss any game.

All the other clubs are better than us.

Have been for some years.

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:57, why you little said:

To do that the club must have a rock solid attitude that it is GOING TO WIN.

We took it up to Hawthorn in Round 2 2011 for one quarter and then got completely butchered

I didn't take that as a positive. This club does not hold the luxury or the ability to dismiss any game.

All the other clubs are better than us.

Have been for some years.

That is no longer correct WYL, as I posted on another thread there is very little in the bottom 6/7 sides, trade and drafting period coming up can change things quickly for teams in that group and thankfully we aren't looking down teh barrel of losing club greats to retirement unlike other clubs in that group.

Don't throw back the previous years drafting prior to Roos as a reason why teh other will jump ahead of us again

  On 28/07/2014 at 02:34, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Stigma? What stigma? I'm sure you remember Brisbane winning three premierships in a row in 2001-2003. But who came last in those years? No-one actually cares.

I agree that it's important for the players that they have confidence that the team is heading in the right direction. But surely they can see that given how we've performed this year the trajectory is positive.

your right LD-vC peope don't remember when there are grander things to remember.

& M&M in 2003, realising after they were smashed by the Matthews teams, they were well short of true Premiership material, steeered them back down to the seaside for a couple of summers to catch more fish.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2004&t=N

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2005&t=N&s=P

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_drafts?year=2006&t=N&s=P

& now is doing it again with the blues.

As long as we make a genuine effort to avoid it instead of rolling over and die in the last few weeks I won't be distraught. Serves us right for losing so many winnable games - but at least we can go into next year with a decent platform.

Having said that I can see St Kilda tanking furiously from here to ensure that they finish last.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:01, Pennant St Dee said:

That is no longer correct WYL, as I posted on another thread there is very little in the bottom 6/7 sides, trade and drafting period coming up can change things quickly for teams in that group and thankfully we aren't looking down teh barrel of losing club greats to retirement unlike other clubs in that group.

Don't throw back the previous years drafting prior to Roos as a reason why teh other will jump ahead of us again

You are merely hoping.

"It" hasn't happened yet.

We are still down the bottom.

After the Essendrug game i thought the players had finally woken but it was merely to turn over & go back to sleep.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:13, why you little said:

You are merely hoping.

"It" hasn't happened yet.

We are still down the bottom.

After the Essendrug game i thought the players had finally woken but it was merely to turn over & go back to sleep.

The Essendon game, like the 2012 game, was a case of them losing it rather than us winning it. Was wrapt that we did but as Roosy himself said, we should have lost by 10 goals plus.

  On 27/07/2014 at 23:43, daisycutter said:

what a masochist you are

if we deserve one on performance we should get one

we should have got one last year and the pathetic reasons given by the afl for not getting one have turned out to be wrong

have a look at the history of PPs over the last 10 years and there is no question we should get one

we should go for every competitive gain we can, other clubs aren't so reticent

as for your fear of ridicule from opposition supporters, htfu

The PP now (the rules have changed) is something that is for teams that are miles behind everyone else. The AFL made the right choice given our performances this year.

I don't like to see us lose, but I hate far worse the loser mentality that's wants handouts and special treatment from the AFL in the form of PP's. Equalisation $$'s is very different because the fixture and ground deals are so unequal. We need to draft better, trade better and develop talent better, not put our hand out like a pauper every time things don't go our way.

And please point out where I said I fear ridicule from opposition supporters. I only said any ridicule would be deserved.

Perhaps you should htfu and be patient while we get better the same way the other 17 clubs get better. Through smart decisions and plain old hard work.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:16, S_T said:

The PP now (the rules have changed) is something that is for teams that are miles behind everyone else. The AFL made the right choice given our performances this year.

I don't like to see us lose, but I hate far worse the loser mentality that's wants handouts and special treatment from the AFL in the form of PP's. Equalisation $$'s is very different because the fixture and ground deals are so unequal. We need to draft better, trade better and develop talent better, not put our hand out like a pauper every time things don't go our way.

And please point out where I said I fear ridicule from opposition supporters. I only said any ridicule would be deserved.

Perhaps you should htfu and be patient while we get better the same way the other 17 clubs get better. Through smart decisions and plain old hard work.

well thats what we have done hanging onto the mcc's coat tails over our journey.

  On 28/07/2014 at 00:56, rpfc said:

Jeez, the wool has been pulled over your eyes...

Do you think the Hawks or Pies were embarrassed to the point where they gave up their PPs a decade ago?

Nah, they used them well and won flags on the back of the talent they got.

Teams don't want us to have a PP because they want to keep their feet on our necks - it amazes me the level that our supporters care about what other supporters think of us - and here it is again in this thread.

Northey used to get the whole club in an "us vs them" lather and we need some more of that around here. Stop caring what your loser friends think of our club - they can GAGF.

We should do what is best for our club.

I don't care about where we finish down the bottom, I don't care about what picks we will get, I even am getting ambivalent about Frawley's decision - all I care about, as Robbiefrom13 said, is how we finish the season and then how we can build the list after the season.

All those PP's were awarded based on a formula. They didn't have put a case forward to the AFL that they are deserving of the PP. I didn't think we had a case last year, but could understand why the new FD and admin would have a crack. Our performance this year without Clarke and Hogan showed that the AFL was right (we are not the unwatchable basket case we once were). We have the people in place right now, on and off the field to keep this club moving up.

I don't give a flip about what other supporters say about the MFC. I just want a club that works hard and earns success like all the other clubs, not by getting PP's.

I couldn't agree more with your last paragraph though.

Big chance the saints beat the suns next week and we lose to the lions

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:46, Mike Nolan said:

Big chance the saints beat the suns next week and we lose to the lions

I think it's entirely possible hence why the club does it's best to WIN!

If we do keep losing and "win" the spoon, some of those same people who voted 1-3 will almost certainly be disappointed with those losses. You can't have it both ways - if you want the spoon, you effectively want the team to lose.

Let's not beat around the bush here, saying "I don't care" effectively means in that in a number of people's eyes, they don't necessarily want the team to win any more games - they're "happy" to lose. Not all of those who voted 1-3 of course, but at the current standing of 43% voting 1-3, there must be more than a few that feel that way. Otherwise, we've got a disproportionate number of supporters who "don't care" (if we won the spoon)

In an ideal world, we win 4 of our last 5 games but realistically, that's a big ask - it's entirely possible though. Just imagine how we'd all feel if that were to happen? It would give us some real hope for the future.

What hope does winning another spoon give you? (18th from 18) ... a chance to wait 3-6 years to see if our draft pick is any good or not. Unless we trade that pick of course - but what are the chances of that happening? Besides, pick 3,4 or 5 could be a much better player than pick 1 anyway.

Be careful what you wish for.

  On 28/07/2014 at 03:59, Macca said:

Let's not beat around the bush here, saying "I don't care" effectively means that you don't want the team to win any more games - you're "happy" to lose. Pure and simple.

Are you actively not comprehending what people are saying?

Who 'wants' to win the spoon? Who is 'happy' to be where we are?

A few of us are saying that we are one of those deckchairs on the Titanic and what does it matter how we are shuffled? Another terrible finish is assured.

Nothing is ever 'pure and simple' and neither is this.

And you seem to be enamoured with what others think about the club. Why? The AFL isn't a peer review system - it's a zero sum game where no-one gives an inch nor cares what others think about what they are doing - except Dees supporters are always worried about what the footy world is going to think...

Good to see more passion entering the debate.

Losing is for losers - seriously aren't we sick of being losers.

I know the list is still far from up to scratch - but the club has to start somewhere and every win and every rung higher up the ladder is a step in the right direction - the alternative isn't an alternative.