On 09/08/2014 at 03:18, sue said:

I think a number of 1-3 voters did acknowledge all that. I see the point but I don't think being actual bottom has much effect on that. Being pathetic in the bottom 2 to 4 is sufficient for all that.

And that's the point I've been trying to make from very early on this thread. However, a number of people who seemingly voted 1-3 weren't exactly talking about the draft picks at the start of the thread. Many are saying as such, more recently. Essentially, we're in agreement on why some people have voted the way they have.

But, it should be noted that the OP (Pates) said this as part of his opening post ...

  Quote

For the record this has nothing to do with draft picks.

So, we could assume that many posters have voted with an indifferent attitude to how the poll was originally designed.

Where the conflict possibly lies here is the value of 3 more wins as opposed to a spoon. Many here may not believe that winning our last 3 games will make any difference at all, but I would disagree.

And at no stage have I ever mentioned any other ladder finishing position other than not wanting to finish last. I've essentially only talked about winning as many games as possible.

GWS is missing purpose. Petracca cup is on

  On 09/08/2014 at 03:57, Macca said:

And that's the point I've been trying to make from very early on this thread. However, those who seemingly voted 1-3 weren't exactly talking about the draft picks at the start of the thread. Many are saying as such, more recently. Essentially, we're in agreement on why some people have voted the way they have.

But, it should be noted that the OP (Pates) said this as part of his opening post ...

So, we could assume that many posters have voted with an indifferent attitude to how the poll was originally designed.

Where you and I are in disagreement is with my wish for 3 more wins as opposed to a spoon. We need some momentum going into next year and I believe all the key elements of our growth can be effected even with small gains or losses.

If we win our last 3 games and finish on 7 wins it would make a difference going into the off season. Now, you may not think we're capable of winning our last 3 games but that's not really the point. You also may not believe that winning our last 3 games will make any difference at all but I would disagree.

And at no stage have I ever mentioned any other ladder finishing position other than not wanting to finish last. I've essentially only talked about winning as many games as possible.

I'm all for winning all the remaining games too. It will make a difference for next year, plus some positive effect on membership and all the other benefits posters have listed (though I don't think there's much of an effect there). You are considering the outcome of games played by the other spoon 'contenders' more than I and many others did in responding to the poll. Many of us just responded to the abstract notion of ending on the bottom.

If we win enough and other cellar dweller lose enough we won't finish on the bottom. Your position is to equate 'non-spoon' with wins by us (coupled with the outcomes of the other cellar dweller's remaining games). Fair enough. I think everyone who has posted would rather win some more games than finish bottom. But some were just considering the notion of a spoon per se.

The q asked about the spoon not a myriad of quantifying parameters. And I still couldn't care about the spoon.

Maybe had there been another q concerning a want to win more games then possible the blood pressure of some might be more relaxed

Those on my side of the argument don't all share the same way of looking at things. For instance, those who "don't care" have unfortunately been labelled incorrectly by some in my camp. I don't necessarily share their views.

My issue with not caring about winning the spoon is that we can't have our cake and eat it too - there's a downside. A spoon can hurt the club in the areas that have been previously noted by a few posters.

Where 7 wins would leave the team on the ladder is debatable but we'd definitely avoid the spoon if we were to win that many games. 7 wins has it's relevance in that it would almost certainly mean that we would win our last 3 games. That sort of result could have an upside in a few key areas.

We would almost certainly need to lose all our remaining games in order to have a chance of collecting the wooden spoon and ... if we don't win another game, it will mean that we will have lost our last 10 games to round out the season.

Wins are important in the whole scheme of things. Win our last 3 and it helps the clubs development. We're not strongly placed within the league and we need to improve our standing. Winning a spoon and finishing 18th of 18 clubs is not what PJ, Roos and co would want. They would care.

Wins are important. .period. its actually THE thing that its all about. ALL other considerations are purely constituent to that outcome.

Enough wins and you get to vie for the only real game with a prize, the GF. But if youre not within cooee then much discussion is purely semantic.

GWS tanked its percentage below ours We are now above them on the ladder.

well number of wins is directly related to position on ladder

wooden spoon = least wins

4 wins in first half of season vs zero wins in 2nd half of season implies a sliding backwards

not happy jan

It kind of annoys me what their doing. IMO they miss on purpose but still compete....then intentionally always get smashed in one quarter where they do really [censored].

  On 09/08/2014 at 06:26, olisik said:

GWS tanked its percentage below ours We are now above them on the ladder.

you think our % won't drop tonight?

  On 09/08/2014 at 06:29, daisycutter said:

well number of wins is directly related to position on ladder

wooden spoon = least wins

4 wins in first half of season vs zero wins in 2nd half of season implies a sliding backwards

not happy jan

j curve

It's alright beelz, were bout to get our first win

  On 09/08/2014 at 06:30, Moneider96 said:

It kind of annoys me what their doing. IMO they miss on purpose but still compete....then intentionally always get smashed in one quarter where they do really [censored].

Don't stress, there are no real stand outs in the draft, they'll go up a spot sure, but IMO there are no 'O'Meara's' in this draft.

If you ain't first - you're last.

  On 08/08/2014 at 12:53, beelzebub said:

There are Premiers...and everyone else

Intimating that there isn't any difference between finishing say, 2nd with 18 wins or finishing 18th with 4 wins is wrong. Of course there's a difference. All the key areas of a club can and will be effected with those sort of outcomes. Good or bad.

Reducing the whole debate down to a premiership or nothing is in my view, ignoring the big picture.

Funny as to me there really is no debate. Theres a question to which you can hold any number of answers. Each but representative of an opinion. Opinions dont need to win or lose.

  On 30/07/2014 at 03:06, Bedraggled Dee said:

The point is we should care. Its not about being emotional its about setting standards and setting a club culture and gettng the players to believe. We can all agree we have improved in terms of defence but the ladder positon is not arbitary, it is the measure of perfomance for AFL teams. Finishing last is bad. It is bad for the players, bad for the club and bad for the supporters.

If we fiinish last this year it is arguable that we have gone backwards relative to the rest of the competition. Yes our percentage has improved but to what effect, a drop in ladder position, whoopty do. We are currently 6%age points from our position at the end of 2012. 5 more losses and we dont even make 2012 standards.

This is not up for debate, the figures dont lie. Without at least 2 and hopefully 3 wins we will have acheived very little other than narrowing our win/loss band width.

We have led 6 times in the final quarter only to lose. We have achieved something.

  On 10/08/2014 at 06:24, jnrmac said:

We have led 6 times in the final quarter only to lose. We have achieved something.

Not sure what that says jnr besides that we did not win the games.

  On 10/08/2014 at 06:28, old dee said:

Not sure what that says jnr besides that we did not win the games.

FCS, it says we weren't thumped (or narrowly beaten) until sometime in Q4. If you don't see that as a significant plus compared to the past, then you are wearing the opposite of rose-coloured glasses OD.

  On 10/08/2014 at 07:11, sue said:

FCS, it says we weren't thumped (or narrowly beaten) until sometime in Q4. If you don't see that as a significant plus compared to the past, then you are wearing the opposite of rose-coloured glasses OD.

Stay calm sue

a small joke there dear

Looks like we may avoid the spoon

Hopefully we smash GWS

  On 10/08/2014 at 07:25, old dee said:

Stay calm sue

a small joke there dear

very calm but would love an joke that was positive.

  On 10/08/2014 at 08:55, sue said:

very calm but would love an joke that was positive.

Belief me if I could think of a positive joke after the last eight years I would use it sue.

They are a little short on the ground positive jokes.

Perhaps next weekend after a positive result.

  On 10/08/2014 at 08:59, old dee said:

Belief me if I could think of a positive joke after the last eight years I would use it sue.

They are a little short on the ground positive jokes.

Perhaps next weekend after a positive result.

I'll be waiting. If GWS are tanking and select all their players getting pre-season surgery you should be able to leave me in stiches.

  On 10/08/2014 at 09:06, sue said:

I'll be waiting. If GWS are tanking and select all their players getting pre-season surgery you should be able to leave me in stiches.

haha, now that is funny

better get up in the attic od and dust off the old joke book

or you could ask bbo for a lend of his......oh wait a minute...