Drafts previous to the ones mentioned were also problematic but i think one thing that doesnt seem to get mentioned is our club's misfortune at bottoming out at the time the two new franchises entered the league and dropped our first round and subsequent picks 8 rungs lower. It also meant the value of our 2009 number 1 pick hasnt been of any field use to any tangible degree and wont until Hogan gets onto the paddock.

Any analysis of the 2011 draft and it being a failure is a furphy. It was a putrid draft and there isnt much that could have been done that would have made a difference at any of the picks. Trading for clark was an inspired move that has been cursed with bad luck obviously.

The reality is that most gun AFL players were skinny kids who dominated junior levels against stronger bodies and the. Transfer that to AFL football. Are these same peoplemcalling for big bodied warriors saying Tapscott is a great pick? Or that getting Magner was inspired?

Edited April 6, 201411 yr by goodoil

Brayshaw, Lever, McCartin are all footballers (yes like Hogan who I supported our mini-draft choice).

You list these 3, yet not Wright. He can play both ruck and KPF, something we seem to need more depth in. That and he seems a possibility for being the #1 pick, which we seem to be firming rapidly for.

Who?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-powerbroker-bruce-mathieson-declares-blues-recruiting-worst-in-afl/story-fni5f5nx-1226857436159

"Mathieson, a former club director, has gifted hundreds of lucrative poker machines to Carlton and remains an influential figure at Visy Park. His nephew, Craig, sits on the Carlton board."

2014: Brayshaw, Lever, McCartin are the right kids. I want tough footballers. Not development types.

Quality players but there is no chance we will draft Lever with our first pick. The notion of develoment versus ready made types finds no resonance with me. The game is about getting 200 game players/ gun players based on projection. I would want people in charge of recruiting sacked if they are putting pens through the likes of Fyfe or Watts or McDonald or Martin Gleeson or Jack Macrae just because they are skinny or have immature bodies. As an example Macrae has probably lept above Wines as a player in the last week and has a heap more upside still.

Edited April 6, 201411 yr by goodoil

Drafts previous to the ones mentioned were also problematic but i think one thing that doesnt seem to get mentioned is our club's misfortune at bottoming out at the time the two new franchises entered the league and dropped our first round and subsequent picks 8 rungs lower. It also meant the value of our 2009 number 1 pick hasnt been of any field use to any tangible degree and wont until Hogan gets onto the paddock.

Any analysis of the 2011 draft and it being a failure is a furphy. It was a putrid draft and there isnt much that could have been done that would have made a difference at any of the picks. Trading for clark was an inspired move that has been cursed with bad luck obviously.

The reality is that most gun AFL players were skinny kids who dominated junior levels against stronger bodies and the. Transfer that to AFL football. Are these same peoplemcalling for big bodied warriors saying Tapscott is a great pick? Or that getting Magner was inspired?

Perfect post

Trouble is one is not enough, we would need to snaffle three or four elites in the next draft to even be competitive again. Our list is so far behind the pack it is truly amazing.

That is why I said we need to demand multiple picks, not just one, as one would make no difference.

Morton and Gysberts were talented kids who did not win contested footy. They played as tall mids in uncontested style... modern day athletes who were not ready for the grit of the AFL.

At least I put it out there. You get it right most of the time so you question why cannot the professionals.

We have held players back and yes like 17 other clubs have also played 18 year olds in their first year. Give me strength. It does not seem to have hurt the Giants or Suns youngsters development.

Brayshaw, Lever, McCartin are all footballers (yes like Hogan who I supported our mini-draft choice). Do you have 3 others from this years crop that you support. If you don't follow the recruiting, then keep backing the clubs UNDER PERFORMANCE and keep eating the popcorn from the club in the cheap seats.

Not every player at every club wins contested footy. Some players play more uncontested footy. At Melbourne, they weren't able to do that because we demanded they lift their contested play, partly because we didn't have any midfielders who were much good at it.

Trying to compare us to the Suns or Giants is ridiculous. They had tonnes of first round picks all playing and growing together, with an ability to scoop leaders and talent off the top of the competition (e.g. Ablett, Ward). We brought in one or two picks per year (not 8 or 9 like GWS/GC) and asked them to immediately become really good players when they weren't able and had no one to help them.

No, I don't have three players I support. I'll get interested in the draft later in the year. Regardless, why is it that if I don't know who the gun kids are in April that I have to back the clubs underperformance (why did you put that in capitals? Are you trying to say I think the club isn't underperforming?) or that I sit in the cheap seats (what the hell does that have to do with anything?).

Your right we need tough footballers. Watts Trengove Toumpas and Grimes are not the answers there are many more as well. We have to get players that really want to win the ball. Jones and Viney are excellent examples. Wynes would have been better than Toumpas. Darling would have been better than Watts. Martin would have been better than Trengove and on and on we could go. What we have to do quicker is recognise when a player is not making the grade and move them on. Trade them and get someone better. We hold on to players because of what they might become, this is flawed. Forget development, that's for lower grades, when they get to this level they have to be able to win the ball consistently and we have too many who cant. We need to make wholesale changes, attract real footballers to our club and don't ever stop that process. That's what the top clubs do. Hawthorn do it consistently we should follow their example.

Drafts previous to the ones mentioned were also problematic but i think one thing that doesnt seem to get mentioned is our club's misfortune at bottoming out at the time the two new franchises entered the league and dropped our first round and subsequent picks 8 rungs lower. It also meant the value of our 2009 number 1 pick hasnt been of any field use to any tangible degree and wont until Hogan gets onto the paddock.

Any analysis of the 2011 draft and it being a failure is a furphy. It was a putrid draft and there isnt much that could have been done that would have made a difference at any of the picks. Trading for clark was an inspired move that has been cursed with bad luck obviously.

The reality is that most gun AFL players were skinny kids who dominated junior levels against stronger bodies and the. Transfer that to AFL football. Are these same peoplemcalling for big bodied warriors saying Tapscott is a great pick? Or that getting Magner was inspired?

Youre wrong on this. We bottomed out before GWS and GC came into the comp. Thats when we got Scully and Trengove. Its why we were accused of tanking. We bottomed out at the right time. We just never chose correctly nor managed to get off the bottom.

What happened to Morton?

In 2008, his first year I recall him getting 30 possession, 3 goal games

Youre wrong on this. We bottomed out before GWS and GC came into the comp. Thats when we got Scully and Trengove. Its why we were accused of tanking. We bottomed out at the right time. We just never chose correctly nor managed to get off the bottom.

Its a bit pedantic locating the true actual bottoming out point as Neitz, Johnstone, White, McDonald, Green, Yze, Robertson, Whelan, Bruce, Rivers etc left over a spread of years. The club may well have manufactured a season win loss low point in 2009 but the actual low point in terms of performance in my opinion happened over many years and is still happening. I find it hard that someone would argue that GWS and GC coming in didnt hurt our ability to bounce back more agressively as it dropped us from from 5 to 12 twice in a row when other clubs were suffering drops at lower variance points of the draft. They also raped the uncontracted player pool to a great degree when the preseason draft may have netted something. In addition they had access to 17year olds the years before draft age so when we were bad, the drafts were awful - 2011 for example.

Tyson is as good or better on his own i reckon, Tyson looks an absolute gem, and Salem i reckon will be even better than either

Kelly is playing Salem is not

Your right we need tough footballers. Watts Trengove Toumpas and Grimes are not the answers there are many more as well. We have to get players that really want to win the ball. Jones and Viney are excellent examples. Wynes would have been better than Toumpas. Darling would have been better than Watts. Martin would have been better than Trengove and on and on we could go. What we have to do quicker is recognise when a player is not making the grade and move them on. Trade them and get someone better. We hold on to players because of what they might become, this is flawed. Forget development, that's for lower grades, when they get to this level they have to be able to win the ball consistently and we have too many who cant. We need to make wholesale changes, attract real footballers to our club and don't ever stop that process. That's what the top clubs do. Hawthorn do it consistently we should follow their example.

Exactly right always waiting for next year

Kelly is playing Salem is not

3 games into his career, not because he isn't good enough because our coach doesn't want to rush him,

we know hardly anything about either besides what we have seen so far, Salem has some grunt about him that i didn't expect.

Youre wrong on this. We bottomed out before GWS and GC came into the comp. Thats when we got Scully and Trengove. Its why we were accused of tanking. We bottomed out at the right time. We just never chose correctly nor managed to get off the bottom.

jockeys dont win you games.

big kpp do.

always said that drafting jockeys is a waste of time,theres heaps of them out there.

your right,we drafted wrong and like most clubs,the penalty for doing this is long term.

Its a bit pedantic locating the true actual bottoming out point as Neitz, Johnstone, White, McDonald, Green, Yze, Robertson, Whelan, Bruce, Rivers etc left over a spread of years. The club may well have manufactured a season win loss low point in 2009 but the actual low point in terms of performance in my opinion happened over many years and is still happening. I find it hard that someone would argue that GWS and GC coming in didnt hurt our ability to bounce back more agressively as it dropped us from from 5 to 12 twice in a row when other clubs were suffering drops at lower variance points of the draft. They also raped the uncontracted player pool to a great degree when the preseason draft may have netted something. In addition they had access to 17year olds the years before draft age so when we were bad, the drafts were awful - 2011 for example.

Suggest you read my post first then go and look at the drafting history.

Had we drafted correctly in 08 and 09 we should have been ready to rise up the ladder in 2010, 2011. Simple facts are we butchered it.

Suggest you read my post first then go and look at the drafting history.

Had we drafted correctly in 08 and 09 we should have been ready to rise up the ladder in 2010, 2011. Simple facts are we butchered it.

And very similar to hawthorn post roughead/franklin we did rise up the ladder only to be thwarted in part by the entry of the new franchises

Edited April 7, 201411 yr by goodoil

Your right we need tough footballers. Watts Trengove Toumpas and Grimes are not the answers there are many more as well. We have to get players that really want to win the ball. Jones and Viney are excellent examples. Wynes would have been better than Toumpas. Darling would have been better than Watts. Martin would have been better than Trengove and on and on we could go. What we have to do quicker is recognise when a player is not making the grade and move them on. Trade them and get someone better. We hold on to players because of what they might become, this is flawed. Forget development, that's for lower grades, when they get to this level they have to be able to win the ball consistently and we have too many who cant. We need to make wholesale changes, attract real footballers to our club and don't ever stop that process. That's what the top clubs do. Hawthorn do it consistently we should follow their example.

Dont even know where to start with this post. Most of your arguments have been debunked in this very thread before you posted.

- criticise Trengove and Grimes all you like for their obvious flaws - don't add "lack of toughness" though - this is not their problems.

- again - looking in the rear vision mirror - Darling over Watts ? Spare me. Please point me to any recruiter in the land who was considering taking a mid teen draft pick over a top 2-3 draft pick - if you seriously could have seen that - please apply for a job as recruiter.

- forget development ? seriously ? the amount of "Ready made" footballers who have come in and made instant impacts ? From the 2012 draft Wines made a great impact for the whole year and I thought Vlastuin and Mayes were pretty good. About another half dozen from that draft in the first 3 games of this year have looked good. Thats under 10 from the first 70 picks who are coming into their own 3 games into their second season.

You have picked Hawthorn as an example we should follow - their two best picks from the 2012 draft didnt play a game in the seniors last year and there are 2 from the year before who havent play a game yet either ! They are left at BH to "DEVELOP".

Edited April 7, 201411 yr by nutbean

Your right we need tough footballers. Watts Trengove Toumpas and Grimes are not the answers there are many more as well. We have to get players that really want to win the ball. Jones and Viney are excellent examples. Wynes would have been better than Toumpas. Darling would have been better than Watts. Martin would have been better than Trengove and on and on we could go. What we have to do quicker is recognise when a player is not making the grade and move them on. Trade them and get someone better. We hold on to players because of what they might become, this is flawed. Forget development, that's for lower grades, when they get to this level they have to be able to win the ball consistently and we have too many who cant. We need to make wholesale changes, attract real footballers to our club and don't ever stop that process. That's what the top clubs do. Hawthorn do it consistently we should follow their example.

Forget development..... wow.

Frosty i don't even know what to say, what would you like the club to do? pick the best available player, or pick the inside mid even if he isn't rated as highly as others that are available?

Struass, Blease, Tapscott, Morton all huge errors

Watts, Sylvia, Trengove: loads of talent, terrible development

Toumpas, Salem, Kennedy-harris - need 50 games to get a good read of where they are and where they can get too, all showing good signs but need to work on others which is perfectly normal for young players

Kelly is playing Salem is not

More MFC luck, Salem has a thyroid problem.

Although I didn't like his interview the other day where he talked about developing at Casey. Even if that's what they want him to do, I would much rather he say he wants to play AFL now and he will do everything in his power to push for a game.

More MFC luck, Salem has a thyroid problem.

Although I didn't like his interview the other day where he talked about developing at Casey. Even if that's what they want him to do, I would much rather he say he wants to play AFL now and he will do everything in his power to push for a game.

i think it's just his personality, he is very laid back

i think it's just his personality, he is very laid back

So was Lucas Cook and he said something similar in an early interview.

So was Lucas Cook and he said something similar in an early interview.

I missed that one, i really rate Salem as a young player, i would say he's the best first year talent i have seen come through our doors in a few years, he has elite skills, great outside polish but has the grunt and inside game to match it, very complete player

I missed that one, i really rate Salem as a young player, i would say he's the best first year talent i have seen come through our doors in a few years, he has elite skills, great outside polish but has the grunt and inside game to match it, very complete player

Sorry Sassy, I've been burned way too often.

I will rate Salem when I see him displaying elite skills 30 touches a game with outside polish and inside grunt - until then he is just another youngster that is not in the team.

I am a great believer in development and further believe we have failed our youngsters miserably in that area.

Once I see a few youngsters come through that showed promise early and then make good on the promise they show, then I will start being more optimistic about the talent we draft.

i think it's just his personality, he is very laid back

We need players who want to smash down walls.