I do and they love him still. Equally, I have Carlton friends who still rue the day they missed him in the draft, due to their salary cap breaches under pig's arse's stewardship.

Did they love him when he was 23?

He had been tar brushed as a soft outside player who doesn't get enough footy and the footy he did get was off half back from sideways kicks.

It took a while for this to leave the general football consciousness to the point where you have no idea what I am talking about but I remember it. And it is a lesson that all that is does not have to be the same way for eternity.

Edited April 29, 201411 yr by rpfc

Did they love him when he was 23?

He had been tar brushed as a soft outside player who doesn't get enough footy and the footy he did get was off half back from sideways kicks.

It took a while for this to leave the general football consciousness to the point where you have no idea what I am talking about but I remember it. And it is a lesson that all that is does not have to be the same way for eternity.

The Saints I know certainly did.

I would call Hawkins an elite forward absolutely. Took him a while yes.

His breakout game was the 2011 GF, not a bad place to do it. His name with Lingy is all over that cup.

I am forming a new group called "MOWINTW-E". ( most overused word in the world - elite)

Has his good days and..actually ...he doesn't have many good days...watching him he has good 15 minutes and then does nothing for the rest of the game.

With the service he has been getting from one of the best midfields in the comp for the best part of his career he should be more than elite - but he isnt.

He'll do me.

me too !

He is a gem.

Number 1 draft picks? The point of nominating the last 5 years is that the "science' of draft selection has come a long way since the early 2000's. By and large the number 1 draft picks are playing consistent and good footy. Many of them having to leave home to do it. Now there's 'maturity' for ya.

None of them are number 1 draft picks.

I never said they were. And it's pretty irrelevant.

Being a number 1 pick doesn't gift you instant maturity.

Maybe it should, if the recruiters know what they are doing.

But in the last 5 years they have been Boyd (way too early),Whitfield, Patton, Swallow, Scully.

But what's your point?

All that says is (and I think it was already pretty bloody obvious anyway) that Watts was drafted for size, speed, athleticism, skill and smarts, but not attitude.

He's an intelligent guy, but clearly doesn't have a mature, competitive, aggressive attitude.

That has been obvious to all supporters for some time, I thought.

MY point is that it is not a conscious decision.

No one in their right mind would WANT to go out and play carp, to suffer the incessant criticisms of the media, supporters and all other football watchers. If he knew the answer, he'd be a lot better and a lot happier.

But he doesn't. His mindset, his approach, his attitude is not right.

And I think a lot of it has to do with maturity.

His mindset will shift as be matures, and he will have epiphanies, of sorts.

That is what I believe.

You can try to misrepresent what "maturity" means and make straw men all you like.

I am forming a new group called "MOWINTW-E". ( most overused word in the world - elite)

Has his good days and..actually ...he doesn't have many good days...watching him he has good 15 minutes and then does nothing for the rest of the game.

With the service he has been getting from one of the best midfields in the comp for the best part of his career he should be more than elite - but he isnt.

forwards like Hudson and Lockett do not exist anymore.

I would take Hawkins 15 minute bursts any day

He wins games with those bursts of absolute authority.

hawkins was also rated as one of the best prospects of his year, he just wasn't available to anyone.

pretty sure the cats got him for a third round pick under the old rules? what a dream run they've had with father-sons.

hawkins was also rated as one of the best prospects of his year, he just wasn't available to anyone.

pretty sure the cats got him for a third round pick under the old rules? what a dream run they've had with father-sons.

They did, and it's why the F/S bidding system was brought in.

Touted as top 5 pre-draft.

They did, and it's why the F/S bidding system was brought in.

Touted as top 5 pre-draft.

They are still chalk and cheese. The concession here is that he is in a better club

Edited April 29, 201411 yr by iv'a worn smith

Here we go again, the weekly "Watts apologists" posts. He's been worse than shocking the last two weeks and any effort to say otherwise just shows people either have short memories or they didn't watch the games. He doesn't need to be banished for all time but he does need a decent run at Casey (at least 4-6 weeks) until the "non-negotiables" are ingrained into him. You can't get away with a complete & utter lack of intensity and attack on the contest in senior footy.

Of course Roos is going to come out and bat for him/make excuses he's not a [censored] like Neeld who publicly pots his players. Just because he says one thing publicly do you really think he doesn't see what we all see and have different thoughts privately?

Here we go the two bob experts. Drop Watts, do this, do that.

Guess what, there is a bloke being paid millions of dollar,s a bloke who has coached a premiership side, a bloke who knows a hell of a lot more than you naysayers and he says Watts is not the biggest problem, that Watts should play this week.

Now if Roos says play Watts then I agree with him, the rest of you keyboard champions can pull your heads in.

I support the Melbourne FC , Paul Roos, the players and supporters you whingers need to realise that you are not supporting your club by tearing down players and decisions of the FD.

So in future when I read posts that disagree with our coach I will immediately realise that you are not a Melbourne supporter, you are a whinging loser, prepared to undermine the best chance of success we have had in over 20 years.

As for saying Jack didn't pick himself as number 1 is such a perverse twisting of logic. JW was always touted as a number 1 pick. It was between him and Nic Nat. These kids are schooled very well on the intricacies of the draft process and the expectation placed on them, as they come through an elite system.

Twisted and perverse ? With all the science around drafting and JW ( with NN) always touted as number one ? When all indicators point at draft time to him being equal first ?

An interesting discussion - How do you get to be a number one draft pick ? - I presume because all the indicators tell you that the player is better than everyone else.

So as a club do you take the player that is considered the number draft choice ? Because it is apparent that being touted as the best of the bunch is not always the case.

OR would you do what WYL suggests - all these indicators need to be ignored - WYL keeps banging on about Toumpas over Wines when EVERY indicator had Toumpas as the better choice. Same with Dustin Martin over Scully and Trengove.

I actually agree with you that I he was always touted 1 or 2 and I understood why we picked him. I don't rear vision mirror and bemoan who we could have taken because we wouldn't ( and shouldn't) have done it differently at the time. We only should have done it different in hindsight.

I do however bemoan Jack's output.

forwards like Hudson and Lockett do not exist anymore.

I would take Hawkins 15 minute bursts any day

He wins games with those bursts of absolute authority.

yet it took him to 2012 to start doing it.

yet it took him to 2012 to start doing it.

No it was the 2011 GF. A game of high pressure for 3 Quarters until Hawkins busted it right open.

Twisted and perverse ? With all the science around drafting and JW ( with NN) always touted as number one ? When all indicators point at draft time to him being equal first ?

An interesting discussion - How do you get to be a number one draft pick ? - I presume because all the indicators tell you that the player is better than everyone else.

So as a club do you take the player that is considered the number draft choice ? Because it is apparent that being touted as the best of the bunch is not always the case.

OR would you do what WYL suggests - all these indicators need to be ignored - WYL keeps banging on about Toumpas over Wines when EVERY indicator had Toumpas as the better choice. Same with Dustin Martin over Scully and Trengove.

I actually agree with you that I he was always touted 1 or 2 and I understood why we picked him. I don't rear vision mirror and bemoan who we could have taken because we wouldn't ( and shouldn't) have done it differently at the time. We only should have done it different in hindsight.

I do however bemoan Jack's output.

We seem to be in agreement here. Can I just put it on the record that no-one would be more chuffed than me if Jack can turn things around and live up to his perceived potential. But as I said on another thread when it's your turn to go, you go. It is the team thing to do and that is what our game is all about. You take your turn at doing the hard things, when the team requires it.

As for the Wines over Toumpas camp, as well as other examples, football departments, in their wisdom or otherwise, determine what they think is needed, to rise up the ladder. It is a matter of historical fact that we have got that wrong time and time again over the last decade or so. For that, I don't for one minute blame the individual players selected, but rather a prevailing culture that seems to hold a perspective that first round draft picks would cure all previous ills, without the need to nurture players from within. It has been well argued that the summary dismissal of Junior, Green and the like as ample evidence that we did not need experience or grunt to help the young guys coming in fresh to a club which had its collective back to the wall.

It is my great hope that that culture is exactly what Roos will change and impact the most. If he can do that, Jack might just be able to jettison the rotten way he was managed in his first few years by the club.

I truly hope so.

Here we go the two bob experts. Drop Watts, do this, do that.

Guess what, there is a bloke being paid millions of dollar,s a bloke who has coached a premiership side, a bloke who knows a hell of a lot more than you naysayers and he says Watts is not the biggest problem, that Watts should play this week.

Now if Roos says play Watts then I agree with him, the rest of you keyboard champions can pull your heads in.

I support the Melbourne FC , Paul Roos, the players and supporters you whingers need to realise that you are not supporting your club by tearing down players and decisions of the FD.

So in future when I read posts that disagree with our coach I will immediately realise that you are not a Melbourne supporter, you are a whinging loser, prepared to undermine the best chance of success we have had in over 20 years.

It does not seem we can agree on much this last 24 hours ManDee

I find two things above to be funny

- You are on a fan chat site not everyone is going to have the same opinion, To then suggest that because someone has a different opinion they are whingers and trying pull down the club is strange. Do you really think that anything on here effects the way the club was run and how the players played over the last two years. The real reason we are poor is we have poor players plain and simple.

- the members and supporters have put up with almost a decade of terrible performances on and off the field without much whinging until recent times. The fact there are still 33000 paid up members tells you they still want success.

Not everyone is going to agree with you accept it.

Edited April 29, 201411 yr by old dee

Players don't exist in a vacuum. You can't meaningfully talk about one player without comparing them to others. Jimmy Toumpas deserved to be dropped, and so does Jack Watts--and for many of the same reasons also.

well they are not the same situation anyway, one has 6 years and 79 games, and about a dozen of those games have been genuinely good ones.. doesn't excuse his last 5 being hopeless but my comment was to do with young high-draft picks waltzing into the side on autoselect. I totally agree that JW should be dropped but it is a totally different situation to Toumpas. I don't dislike Toumpas BTW but he has done pretty much zero on an AFL or VFL field at this stage

In the last 5 years, can you name one?

Hurley, NikNat, Gumbleton, Vickery, John Butcher, Andrew Moore, Kane Lucas, Gorroinge, Watson, Pitt.....

Hurley, NikNat, Gumbleton, Vickery, John Butcher, Andrew Moore, Kane Lucas, Gorroinge, Watson, Pitt.....

They aint number 1 draft picks

I would give you maybe Swallow, Patton has Cameron stood next to him, so if he can't take on at the minimum the 2nd best defender and kick a couple with his size then?, Scully is average, Kreuzer? Gibbs, in and out of form worse like Watts, goes missing in games....so no the nr 1 draft picks are not exactly setting the footy world on fire

Yeah but at least none of those guys do anything they can to avoid physical contact on the field and can lay a proper tackle. Look at Watts' dropped mark in the first quarter, he dropped it because he [censored] himself that he was going to cop contact from behind after being pushed over not long prior in the opposite forward pocket.

It is a matter of historical fact that we have got that wrong time and time again over the last decade or so.

I just need to go on record as saying ( and I agree with all you are saying) that at the time of drafting we did not get it wrong in most instances ( Gysberts, Cook and Strauss are 3 exceptions that were wrong at the time as they were taken way too high according to the drafting science of the time) but so many have gone wrong for all the reasons you highlighted.

I listened to Dermie and he was talking about what it takes to really be successful - and he highlighted Port Adelaide. He was talking about being "elite" ( overused word) in every aspect of the club and he was saying that that is what PA are. He gave the example of Matt White from Richmond being one of Richmonds best runners and not in the top dozen at PA. Is it any wonder the Wines has been such a revelation. Yeah - he has lots of talent but he has been thrown into an environment that makes it so much easier to thrive.

Then that idiot AM this morning was talking about the way we were playing defensively and how boring and horrible it was and if we are going to lose at least we should be entertaining to get more customers through the gate. I don't want our boys to be taught to be entertaining - I want them taught the right way to go about winning.

For this reason alone, although I despair at not winning games I can at least see ( I think I can) that Roos is only interested in setting us up for a change in culture that will bring sustained success

Yeah but at least none of those guys do anything they can to avoid physical contact on the field and can lay a proper tackle. Look at Watts' dropped mark in the first quarter, he dropped it because he [censored] himself that he was going to cop contact from behind after being pushed over not long prior in the opposite forward pocket.

Again I am no defender of Watts - but your argument is - they said it was going to rain, my jumper is wet, I must have been in the rain.

Frawley drops marks, Dawes drops marks and neither of them are scared of contact.

Happy to pot Jack Watts when he pulls out of a contest and when he doesn't go in hard enough but unfair to pot him for what could purely be a simple lack of concentration. ( and yes - that shouldn't happen and he should have clunked that mark)

double edit - I have watched enough of Bryce Gibbs to know he is no fan of the physical

Edited April 29, 201411 yr by nutbean

Here we go the two bob experts. Drop Watts, do this, do that.

Guess what, there is a bloke being paid millions of dollar,s a bloke who has coached a premiership side, a bloke who knows a hell of a lot more than you naysayers and he says Watts is not the biggest problem, that Watts should play this week.

Now if Roos says play Watts then I agree with him, the rest of you keyboard champions can pull your heads in.

I support the Melbourne FC , Paul Roos, the players and supporters you whingers need to realise that you are not supporting your club by tearing down players and decisions of the FD.

So in future when I read posts that disagree with our coach I will immediately realise that you are not a Melbourne supporter, you are a whinging loser, prepared to undermine the best chance of success we have had in over 20 years.

Haha what drivel - you do realise this is a discussion forum where people discuss, analyse and critique all things AFL and MFC? I find it so hilarious when people get an overinflated sense of importance that what they write on an Internet forum actually has a bearing on the performance of their club and players. There's a couple of prime examples in this thread, people who seem to make it their mission to steer Demonland.com "on the right course". Give me a spell.

Also if you can't appreciate the difference between what is said publicly and what may be thought privately and if you can't form thoughts and opinions on your own, what's the point of posting here? So let me get this straight, if Watts plays this week that means I'm wrong but if he is dropped that means I'm right and you'll agree only because Roos and the footy club have made the decision for you? For gods sake get of the fence and assess the facts on their own and form an opinion of your own, god knows how some people get by in life just believing everything that is served up to them. Baaaa!

Your last paragraph basically indicates you can't/won't form an opinion for yourself so there's no point expressing it.

Funnily enough I do think I have formed an opinion. The opinion I expressed is that I think Roos knows more than we do. Sorry to have wasted your time expressing it.

They are still chalk and cheese. The concession here is that he is in a better club

Really?

Did you watch Hawkins in his first 5 seasons? I did.

Up close.

And he was afraid of contact and taking anything by the scruff of the neck.

He was big baby Huey, and avoided contested situations.

They aint number 1 draft picks

What relevance at all is the number they were picked at?

It guarantees nothing, and what's more, if you think he should have more maturity since he was picked at number 1, blame the people who picked him!

It's not that hard to understand, is it? Simple bloody logic.