This may paint a depressing picture, but probably worth analysing. Nothing personal against any of the players mentioned, just an honest fans opinion.

*By AFL standard, I refer to their capacity to get a game in another side.

1. Jesse Hogan. Have seen enough to comfortably state he'll be a very good player. Ready-made - Yes.

2. Nathan Jones. Superstar - Yes.

3. Christian Salem. Looks like he could be a good player, but you never know until he plays AFL football - Question mark

4. Jack Watts. Lacks competitive instinct, but is still not a bad player - Yes.

5. Jimmy Toumpas. Has shown flashes, and I'm pretty sure he'll become a solid player, but at this stage, he is unproven. - Question mark

6. Chris Dawes. When fit - Yes

7. Jack Viney. Young, but can confidently say he is AFL standard. Yes

8. James Frawley. His disposal sure isn't AFL standard, but he'll still be quite a loss if he leaves. Yes

9. Jack Trengove. Sad to say that I'm not sure anymore. Time is on his side to prove doubters wrong, but unfortunately he's been declining for the better part of three years. - Question mark

10. Shannon Byrnes. The fact that he is leading our goal kicking sums up our situation perfectly. Lacks height, speed, skill, composure. - No

11. Mitch Clark. When fit, obviously, but who knows if we'll ever see that again. - Yes

12. Dom Tyson. Looks worth more than pick two just by himself. - Yes

13. Jordie McKenzie. Not a bad run-with player, but provides little else. Courageous? Yes. AFL standard? - No

14. Lynden Dunn. Has come along in leaps and bounds under Roos. - Yes

15. Mitch Clisby. Looked OK last year, but the fact he can't crack a game in our current state is a worry. Status as a second-year player gives him leniency. Question mark

16. Dean Kent. OK first year - Question mark.

17. Sam Blease. Has pace and little else. Doesn't apply nearly enough defensive pressure. - No

18. Daniel Cross. Workhorse. - Yes

19. James Strauss. Would love to say yes, but unfortunately injury has held him back, and when he's actually on the park, he hasn't shown much. - No

20. Colin Garland. God we miss him. - Yes

21. Cameron Pederson. - No. Moving on

22. Viv Michie. Hasn't had a great start to his MFC career, but I have faith he'll come along and be a serviceable player. Still - Question mark

23. Bernie Vince. Very good player. - Yes

24. Jay Kennedy-Harris. Has a chance to be handy. Unproven, obviously. Would like to see more. - Question mark

25. Tom McDonald. Good player who would look much better in a side that doesn't get slaughtered each week. - Yes

26. Daniel Nicholson. Lacks skill and football IQ. - No

27. Aiden Riley. From all accounts, seems he might be a good pickup, obviously haven't seen much though. - Question mark

29. Jayden Hunt. Left-field draft choice, Roos obviously sees something though. - Question mark

31. Jack Grimes.Tries, tries, and then tries some more. Unfortunate that his skills let him down so often though. Still, I'd say yes at this stage. Just

32. Michael Evans. Would like to see more. - Question mark

33. Dom Barry. As above. - Question mark

35. Luke Tapscott. Muscle and not much else. - No

37. Max Gawn. Has potential. - Question mark

38. Jeremy Howe. Gee a very tentative yes. Give him the benefit of the doubt as he's copping more attention than he should be. Lack of effort and desire very evident in the first two games. - Yes. Just

40. Mark Jamar. Not anymore - No.

42. Jake Spencer. Tries his heart out, but lacks so much co-ordination that it's not even funny. - No

44. Rohan Bail. Struggles immensely under any sort of pressure. - No

45. Matt Jones. Feel bad considering that he provided us with a lot of help in his first year. But would he get a game for most other AFL sides? - No

46. Dean Terlich.Tries very hard, but is oh so limited by his disposal. Line ball. - Question Mark

48. Jack Fitzpatrick. After showing a bit last year, looks like he's going nowhere fast. - No

Rookies:

39. Neville Jetta - No.

41. Alex Georgiou - Question mark

43. James Harmes - Question mark

47. Max King - Question mark

So of the 42 players on our list, in my opinion 14 are comfortably AFL standard. Of these, questions remain as to long-term future with the club (Dunn and Frawley, Cross due to age), injuries (Dawes and Clark) and general desire (Watts and Howe).

My three conclusions:

1. I think we have been expecting too much of Roos and co. They really don't have a lot to work with, unfortunately

2. It's going to take quite some time to turn this list over

3. I have far too much time on my hands on a Sunday night.

FMD!! Now I'm really depressed!!

its a short list eh ?

shorter than many of us would care to admit.

Theres an old expression ,,...make it before you make it. We can do that , but we need about 6 more fair dinkum afl std players. Not starts...just journeymen who can hold the fort til things truly happen.

I reckon about 15 are decent AFL grade.

FMD!! Now I'm really depressed!!

you knew this...in your heart of hearts

we all do, if honest

Watch Roosy do this at seasons end. Already hinting at it in his press conferences and it's round bloody 2:

Backline:

AFL standard Frawley, Garland, Dunn, Grimes

Maybe: McDonald, Georgiou, Terlich, Clisby

Possibly: The rest

Midfield
AFL standard: Jones, Tyson, Vince, Cross, Viney

Maybe: Watts, Trengove

Possibly: The rest

Forwards
AFL Standard: Clark (?return), Dawes, Hogan

Maybe: Howe, Bail (makes errors but endurance and run is needed, think he's ok), JKH

Possibly: The rest

Rucks:
Maybe: Gawn, Spencer.

I think Spencer is horrendous but at the same time has now beaten Hickey and then not being destroyed by Cox and Nic Nat. He's a competitor and has a go. Along with Georgiou and maybe Bail are the competitor types we need to set standards for other better players. If everyone tried as hard as guys like that we might get somewhere.

The thing the irks me is that we are still in such a bad health and fitness list wise that we play guys like Pedersen and Byrnes who provide nothing in terms of effort or skill.

Watch Roosy do this at seasons end. Already hinting at it in his press conferences and it's round bloody 2:

Fantastic reference. One line in particular sums up Roosy's conundrum: "While I wasn't able to cut everyone I want, I still cut a lot of you"

Trengove and watts are not yet to standard

Watch Roosy do this at seasons end. Already hinting at it in his press conferences and it's round bloody 2:

Nothing like some quality simpsons.

The issue will be finding enough quality replacements.

Cutting 10 players is fine but maybe a couple of free agents, 4 rounds of draft picks, promote Georgiou and you are still left with more spots to fill. The best possible situation in salvaging some from the wreck. I mean who from today gets delisted this year anyway? Byrnes and that's about it. Everyone else is either contracted or required. There's little of value to trade away unless someone wants to take one of our project kids and give us a decent serviceable player in return. Given the history of Melbourne players I doubt that anyone wants to trade for any of our guys who played today yet alone those who weren't in the 22.

Make trenners a fwd and give watts a break. His skill is afl standard but his lack of physicality isn't.

I think the OP's list is very accurate.

This may paint a depressing picture, but probably worth analysing. Nothing personal against any of the players mentioned, just an honest fans opinion.

*By AFL standard, I refer to their capacity to get a game in another side.

1. Jesse Hogan. Have seen enough to comfortably state he'll be a very good player. Ready-made - Yes.

2. Nathan Jones. Superstar - Yes.

3. Christian Salem. Looks like he could be a good player, but you never know until he plays AFL football - Question mark

4. Jack Watts. Lacks competitive instinct, but is still not a bad player - Yes.

5. Jimmy Toumpas. Has shown flashes, and I'm pretty sure he'll become a solid player, but at this stage, he is unproven. - Question mark

6. Chris Dawes. When fit - Yes

7. Jack Viney. Young, but can confidently say he is AFL standard. Yes

8. James Frawley. His disposal sure isn't AFL standard, but he'll still be quite a loss if he leaves. Yes

9. Jack Trengove. Sad to say that I'm not sure anymore. Time is on his side to prove doubters wrong, but unfortunately he's been declining for the better part of three years. - Question mark

10. Shannon Byrnes. The fact that he is leading our goal kicking sums up our situation perfectly. Lacks height, speed, skill, composure. - No

11. Mitch Clark. When fit, obviously, but who knows if we'll ever see that again. - Yes

12. Dom Tyson. Looks worth more than pick two just by himself. - Yes

13. Jordie McKenzie. Not a bad run-with player, but provides little else. Courageous? Yes. AFL standard? - No

14. Lynden Dunn. Has come along in leaps and bounds under Roos. - Yes

15. Mitch Clisby. Looked OK last year, but the fact he can't crack a game in our current state is a worry. Status as a second-year player gives him leniency. Question mark

16. Dean Kent. OK first year - Question mark.

17. Sam Blease. Has pace and little else. Doesn't apply nearly enough defensive pressure. - No

18. Daniel Cross. Workhorse. - Yes

19. James Strauss. Would love to say yes, but unfortunately injury has held him back, and when he's actually on the park, he hasn't shown much. - No

20. Colin Garland. God we miss him. - Yes

21. Cameron Pederson. - No. Moving on

22. Viv Michie. Hasn't had a great start to his MFC career, but I have faith he'll come along and be a serviceable player. Still - Question mark

23. Bernie Vince. Very good player. - Yes

24. Jay Kennedy-Harris. Has a chance to be handy. Unproven, obviously. Would like to see more. - Question mark

25. Tom McDonald. Good player who would look much better in a side that doesn't get slaughtered each week. - Yes

26. Daniel Nicholson. Lacks skill and football IQ. - No

27. Aiden Riley. From all accounts, seems he might be a good pickup, obviously haven't seen much though. - Question mark

29. Jayden Hunt. Left-field draft choice, Roos obviously sees something though. - Question mark

31. Jack Grimes.Tries, tries, and then tries some more. Unfortunate that his skills let him down so often though. Still, I'd say yes at this stage. Just

32. Michael Evans. Would like to see more. - Question mark

33. Dom Barry. As above. - Question mark

35. Luke Tapscott. Muscle and not much else. - No

37. Max Gawn. Has potential. - Question mark

38. Jeremy Howe. Gee a very tentative yes. Give him the benefit of the doubt as he's copping more attention than he should be. Lack of effort and desire very evident in the first two games. - Yes. Just

40. Mark Jamar. Not anymore - No.

42. Jake Spencer. Tries his heart out, but lacks so much co-ordination that it's not even funny. - No

44. Rohan Bail. Struggles immensely under any sort of pressure. - No

45. Matt Jones. Feel bad considering that he provided us with a lot of help in his first year. But would he get a game for most other AFL sides? - No

46. Dean Terlich.Tries very hard, but is oh so limited by his disposal. Line ball. - Question Mark

48. Jack Fitzpatrick. After showing a bit last year, looks like he's going nowhere fast. - No

Rookies:

39. Neville Jetta - No.

41. Alex Georgiou - Question mark

43. James Harmes - Question mark

47. Max King - Question mark

So of the 42 players on our list, in my opinion 14 are comfortably AFL standard. Of these, questions remain as to long-term future with the club (Dunn and Frawley, Cross due to age), injuries (Dawes and Clark) and general desire (Watts and Howe).

My three conclusions:

1. I think we have been expecting too much of Roos and co. They really don't have a lot to work with, unfortunately

2. It's going to take quite some time to turn this list over

3. I have far too much time on my hands on a Sunday night.

how can you say yes for Hogan, who hasn't played a game and question mark for Terlich, Toumpas... Only just for Grimes? Jeez... No wonder nobody wants to play here...pfft

'14. Lynden Dunn. Has come along in leaps and bounds under Roos. - Yes'

Lynden Dunn has been playing well for 2 or 3 years now. Pre Roos.

Also, rumour has it that he wanted all his teammates to defy the 'tanking' instruction.....could be a leader one day.

'14. Lynden Dunn. Has come along in leaps and bounds under Roos. - Yes'

Lynden Dunn has been playing well for 2 or 3 years now. Pre Roos.

Also, rumour has it that he wanted all his teammates to defy the 'tanking' instruction.....could be a leader one day.

Fair call, but imo he's went to another level again this year. So far, the brain-fades that typified his career are seemingly being phased out.

I'll agree with Jumbo about Dunn, and agree with the OP, except I think we have only 12 AFL standard players because we'll probably never see much more of Clark, & I'll lower Grimes to questionable and Trengove to a no.

how can you say yes for Hogan, who hasn't played a game and question mark for Terlich, Toumpas... Only just for Grimes? Jeez... No wonder nobody wants to play here...pfft

Because Hogan is AFL-ready, and would get a game in almost any side in the AFL. Take Freo for instance. Hogan would walk into their lineup as full-forward alongside Pavlich. Would Toumpas get a game ahead of the likes of Mundy, Fyfe, Barlow, Hill, De Boer, Danyle Pearce, Suban, Mzungu etc? No. Would Terlich get a game ahead of Ibbotson, Silvagni, Johnson, Clancee Pearce, Neale, Spurr etc? No.

I love Jack Grimes, but would his disposal errors be acceptable at Fremantle? Absolutely not

with all due respect Hogan has proved zilch

hope is not fact

Time for some tough love. The two untouchables need to be backed up against the wall. Trengove could do with a spell at Casey and Grimes bookmaked for a spell too in few weeks. We can't be playing any worse without them currently. Howe also needs some pressure to hold his spot.

Its been a while since my last post, but it seems not much has changed.

We are still bad and Jones is still out best and we still dont have a forward line.

with all due respect Hogan has proved zilch

hope is not fact

You're right. Just from watching him in person I see him as someone who will make an impact from the get-go. I think by the end of the year, barring further setbacks, he'll comfortably be a member of our exclusive 'AFL standard' club.

But yes, he's 19 and unproven, so putting him on the list may have been premature

You would hate to be playing in the forward line when Roos states we dont have one.

Exceptions to Howe.

Dean kent had more than an OK frost year, he was great

Definitely AFL standard and then some

You're right. Just from watching him in person I see him as someone who will make an impact from the get-go. I think by the end of the year, barring further setbacks, he'll comfortably be a member of our exclusive 'AFL standard' club.

But yes, he's 19 and unproven, so putting him on the list may have been premature

We cant expect Hogan to save us, he will take time. If you look at GWS, its taking time for Patton and Boyd the same age yet to play.

We so need a Dawes and Clarke to get back on the park to start with. But that wont mean a instant win.

Dean kent had more than an OK frost year, he was great

Definitely AFL standard and then some

If that were the case, he wouldn't have had any problems walking straight into the dismal side we fielded today, would he?

Yes, he was promising, but you can't call a guy who averaged less than 10 disposals, and a goal for every 1.5 games he played 'AFL standard and then some'... Not yet at least. Paul Roos isn't stupid. If Kent was as good as you always make him out to be, he would be a walk-up start.

This may paint a depressing picture, but probably worth analysing. Nothing personal against any of the players mentioned, just an honest fans opinion.

*By AFL standard, I refer to their capacity to get a game in another side.

1. Jesse Hogan. Have seen enough to comfortably state he'll be a very good player. Ready-made - Yes.

2. Nathan Jones. Superstar - Yes.

3. Christian Salem. Looks like he could be a good player, but you never know until he plays AFL football - Question mark

4. Jack Watts. Lacks competitive instinct, but is still not a bad player - Yes.

5. Jimmy Toumpas. Has shown flashes, and I'm pretty sure he'll become a solid player, but at this stage, he is unproven. - Question mark

6. Chris Dawes. When fit - Yes

7. Jack Viney. Young, but can confidently say he is AFL standard. Yes

8. James Frawley. His disposal sure isn't AFL standard, but he'll still be quite a loss if he leaves. Yes

9. Jack Trengove. Sad to say that I'm not sure anymore. Time is on his side to prove doubters wrong, but unfortunately he's been declining for the better part of three years. - Question mark

10. Shannon Byrnes. The fact that he is leading our goal kicking sums up our situation perfectly. Lacks height, speed, skill, composure. - No

11. Mitch Clark. When fit, obviously, but who knows if we'll ever see that again. - Yes

12. Dom Tyson. Looks worth more than pick two just by himself. - Yes

13. Jordie McKenzie. Not a bad run-with player, but provides little else. Courageous? Yes. AFL standard? - No

14. Lynden Dunn. Has come along in leaps and bounds under Roos. - Yes

15. Mitch Clisby. Looked OK last year, but the fact he can't crack a game in our current state is a worry. Status as a second-year player gives him leniency. Question mark

16. Dean Kent. OK first year - Question mark.

17. Sam Blease. Has pace and little else. Doesn't apply nearly enough defensive pressure. - No

18. Daniel Cross. Workhorse. - Yes

19. James Strauss. Would love to say yes, but unfortunately injury has held him back, and when he's actually on the park, he hasn't shown much. - No

20. Colin Garland. God we miss him. - Yes

21. Cameron Pederson. - No. Moving on

22. Viv Michie. Hasn't had a great start to his MFC career, but I have faith he'll come along and be a serviceable player. Still - Question mark

23. Bernie Vince. Very good player. - Yes

24. Jay Kennedy-Harris. Has a chance to be handy. Unproven, obviously. Would like to see more. - Question mark

25. Tom McDonald. Good player who would look much better in a side that doesn't get slaughtered each week. - Yes

26. Daniel Nicholson. Lacks skill and football IQ. - No

27. Aiden Riley. From all accounts, seems he might be a good pickup, obviously haven't seen much though. - Question mark

29. Jayden Hunt. Left-field draft choice, Roos obviously sees something though. - Question mark

31. Jack Grimes.Tries, tries, and then tries some more. Unfortunate that his skills let him down so often though. Still, I'd say yes at this stage. Just

32. Michael Evans. Would like to see more. - Question mark

33. Dom Barry. As above. - Question mark

35. Luke Tapscott. Muscle and not much else. - No

37. Max Gawn. Has potential. - Question mark

38. Jeremy Howe. Gee a very tentative yes. Give him the benefit of the doubt as he's copping more attention than he should be. Lack of effort and desire very evident in the first two games. - Yes. Just

40. Mark Jamar. Not anymore - No.

42. Jake Spencer. Tries his heart out, but lacks so much co-ordination that it's not even funny. - No

44. Rohan Bail. Struggles immensely under any sort of pressure. - No

45. Matt Jones. Feel bad considering that he provided us with a lot of help in his first year. But would he get a game for most other AFL sides? - No

46. Dean Terlich.Tries very hard, but is oh so limited by his disposal. Line ball. - Question Mark

48. Jack Fitzpatrick. After showing a bit last year, looks like he's going nowhere fast. - No

Rookies:

39. Neville Jetta - No.

41. Alex Georgiou - Question mark

43. James Harmes - Question mark

47. Max King - Question mark

So of the 42 players on our list, in my opinion 14 are comfortably AFL standard. Of these, questions remain as to long-term future with the club (Dunn and Frawley, Cross due to age), injuries (Dawes and Clark) and general desire (Watts and Howe).

My three conclusions:

1. I think we have been expecting too much of Roos and co. They really don't have a lot to work with, unfortunately

2. It's going to take quite some time to turn this list over

3. I have far too much time on my hands on a Sunday night.

Roosy's Rome wasn't built in a day. Things will take time to turn around. We've been crap for so long, it's difficult to be patient again. I honestly don't think we are as bad as we have played in rd 1 and 2. Injuries haven't helped. It will be a good day when Pedo, Byrnes and a few others you mention are forced back to Casey due to returns from injury by Dawes, Hogan, Viney, Garland and maybe even Clark. Add a new and improved ruck with a couple of gun mids next year (trades?) and we might just be very competitive.

Well, that's my dream anyway....