POST MATCH DISCUSSION

[P-man 13,366]

I am pretty certain that's what's going to happen at the end of the year RJAY, if we can snag their first pick for him it might be a decent result all things considered.

I wouldn't be betting against Hogan joining him if he doesn't start to play with these boys soon and develop some sort of affection for the club. People shrugged off the Freo scarf photo, but they're kidding themselves imo. A kid like Hogan won't waste his time and generational talents on a cellar dweller he doesn't give two hoots about.

Is having so many talls injured just plain old bad luck or does it go to conditioning? Even by Melbourne standards, it is bad.

Three pre-seasons and our boys don't look much fitter on match day to my eyes, if at all.

I guess Roos trusts Misson so we back him in, but it doesn't alter the fact he is one of the last remnants of a 3 year period that has been a cataclysmic failure.

[nrc73 77]

Trengove should be on marked time, he wouldn't get a game at my local club.

I criticised Trangove during the NAB series and a few people here backed him up, so I left it at that. All the concerns I had about him are still there. He might be a smart player, but like most here, I think he's far too small & slow and plods along the perimeter of a pack waiting for the ball to be fed out to him like too many others.

It will be interesting during the season to see if Roos 'makes a statement' by dropping someone that been a bit of a sacred cow to Casey and I would definitely put Trengove in the sacred cow category.

As undermanned & unskilled as the forward line looked, I'd have to say that the delivery was a far bigger problem. I'd love to see the stats of miskicks to leads in the forward line by player. I thought there was plenty of leading & space in the forward 50, but poor shepherding & running in numbers at CHF.

I re-watched the second quarter and was astounded to see several Melbourne players plodding along on the far side of the square, seemingly without any idea about the exact position they needed to run to individually.

Edited March 31, 2014 by nrc73

[Wells 11 5,377]

I think Roos post game presser said it all. Maybe for him the reality has absolutely dawned. I was previously of the view that perhaps our list wasn't as bad as the previous few years suggested and by getting a coach that the players respected and by whom a chance was given to these guys to enjoy their footy again, the upside would be greater than the downs this year. Seems I was categorically wrong. OK, we're only 2 rounds in, but you would have to be the ultimate optimist to think we can turn this around in a matter of weeks. Tall forwards or not.

What worries me the most is I cannot think of any precedent where a side is so consistently inept and gets whacked so consistently. Maybe not since the Fitzroy days or for that matter, ourselves in the 70's and early 80's.

Sorry for the bleakness of my post, but I feel pretty gutted this morning. Just waiting for my mates' usual condescending emails to hit my inbox this Monday morning

How many seasons is it now when we can basically say its all over for the year by mid way through the 2nd game? In fact suspending judgemnet til round 2 is better than most recent years. I just feel bored going to the footy now. Its a strange sensation. The optimists will start thinking about draft picks for yet another "next year" and the pessimists about extinction or relocation. I do both. Anything to avoid the suffocatiing hopelessness of the present moment.

Its even more sobering to think that the saints, in the middle of a massive rebuild and after sacking a coach after 1 year, still beat us and look on a far better trajectory than we do. The bulldogs who lost all those games in a row last year are now pushing back into being a decent side. I cant even blame Neeld any more and I was at least drawing some comfort out of that.

[Fat Tony 5,217]

• Tyson looks to be a good AFL player.
• Cross showed why he was so loved by Bulldog fans.
• Dunn is a very good player.
• The Spencer experiment should have been terminated when he dropped the ball against North in 2009. We desperately need to recruit an athletic ruckman and I would be chasing Blicavs from Geelong and even consider taking Stefan Martin back.
• Watts was poor. Soft in the contest, dropped easy marks and missed targets. He was the most disappointing thing out of yesterday.
• Tom McDonald lacks the skill to be an AFL player and should be traded (even if Frawley walks).
• Fitz and Howe were disappointing, but the slow pace of our forward movement is the real problem in our game, not the quality of our KPFs. We need to be more willing to kick to a contest early in our attacking phase and use the corridor more. Roos has failed to get us playing with enough flair at the moment. He needs to be aiming to kick 13 goals (even if the opposition kick 25).
• Watching Nic Nat, Shuey and Darling dominate is sickening.
• Garland should be the sub next week.

And another point. Toumpas is too slow for an outside mid and not strong enough in the air to play as a permanent half forward. He needs to be developed as a small defender and should play on Devon Smith this week. This may cost us a few goals as he learns, but it will give us some badly needed skill out of defence.

[rjay 24,853]

And another point. Toumpas is too slow for an outside mid and not strong enough in the air to play as a permanent half forward. He needs to be developed as a small defender and should play on Devon Smith this week. This may cost us a few goals as he learns, but it will give us some badly needed skill out of defence.

Probably, no definitely too slow and not strong enough to be a small defender.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

In his premiership year of 2005, Roos had a significant cohort of so-called 'rejects', which he clearly identified as being made of the right stuff and complementing the heart and soul of the Swans team, which included the likes of Leo Barry, Brett Kirk, Nic Fosdike, Jude Bolton and of course Mickey O'Loughlin and Adam Goodes. Roos and his football department's ability to identify talent to meld with this core was clearly brilliant, given the 2005 result. Barry Hall, Paul Williams, Nick Davis, Darren Jolly and Jason Ball put the cream on the Swans cake. Some brilliance, some erratic (see Hall), some considered also rans at their previous clubs and others simply work horses. Of course, Roos had a fairly solid core as the foundation, something which the Dees have lacked for some considerable period. The legacy continued under John Longmire, drafting the likes of Ted Richards, Marty Mattner, Rhyce Shaw, Shane Mumford, Mitch Morton and Josh Kennedy, a strategy which also saw the culmination of a winning premiership side.

Perhaps Roo's believed (and hopefully still does) that he can replicate his Swans experience at the MFC, by astutely identifying the talent required, some of which may even fly under the radar for other clubs.

Clearly though, at the present time, he has a lot less to work with, given his current playing stocks at Melbourne. He unfortunately, as with his previous 2 predecessors at Melbourne, is burdened with the legacy of an extremely poor recruiting strategy by former MFC football departments and a regime that, it would seem, believed first round draft picks would cure all our ills, while neglecting to nurture whatever talent we may have had on the pre-existing list. What wasn't considered, in my view, was the damage this strategy did to the very fabric of our club. How long will we have to endure and pay the price for such profligacy?

We can only hope Roos still has the right stuff and the fire in the belly, to see the job through.

As a side note, is it me, or does Roos lack the use of the pronoun, "we", when addressing the media?

Edited March 31, 2014 by iv'a worn smith

[nutbean 8,838]

It looks like they are thinking too much about this stupid new game plan.

We finally get players that can win the ball in the middle and we bloody kick it backwards.

There is no natural instinct to run and take the game on....Roos is not the messiah, his game plan is dated,and only works if you have a super skillfull team....our boys are so worried about making a mistake they are turning it over, its written all over their faces.

Stupid new game plan ? As opposed to last years stupid game plan where we were constantly crushed in the possession count

My only slight glimmer of hope is that we are getting more than our fair share of ball. We butcher it, we send it backwards., we miss targets and we are slow to move it. However you can't even consider winning a game if you don't get the ball in your hands.

We are not going to be world beaters when we get a few forwards back, but we can't underestimate our injuries - even one injury decimates us because we are so light on for talent.

As horrific as yesterdays loss the small plus is that we have the first step in place - thats getting hold of the pill - we haven't done that for two years.

Postscript - until we can rid ourselves of ball butcherers either through their improved use of the ball or their removal from the team we will always struggle. The major talent required for AFL is not to be the best mark, best tackler, best runner - it is to be a good user of the ball.

Edited March 31, 2014 by nutbean

[Fat Tony 5,217]

Probably, no definitely too slow and not strong enough to be a small defender.

He won't make it then.

[Guest]

We can only hope Roos still has the right stuff and the fire in the belly, to see the job through.

As a side note, is it me, or does Roos lack the use of the pronoun, "we", when addressing the media?

He floats in and out of 'we' and 'you'. I noticed it a little but he mostly uses we.

I am hoping that PR does what PJ did at the end of 2013. PJ was supposed to be here for only 6 months but he saw that the club wasn't going to be turned around in 6 months so he decided to extend to a further 2 years. I am hoping that Roos (and by what he said in the presser, it may be dawning on him) realizes that the 2-3 year window may need to be mothballed. Sure, no one thinks he needs to be at Melbourne for 10 years or even 5 years but he does need to look at this as a case of 'I'm here until the job is finished'. The players were right when they said there was no quick fix here.

[jazza 1,323]

Stupid new game plan ? As opposed to last years stupid game plan where we were constantly crushed in the possession count

My only slight glimmer of hope is that we are getting more than our fair share of ball. We butcher it, we send it backwards., we miss targets and we are slow to move it. However you can't even consider winning a game if you don't get the ball in your hands.

We are not going to be world beaters when we get a few forwards back, but we can't underestimate our injuries - even one injury decimates us because we are so light on for talent.

As horrific as yesterdays loss the small plus is that we have the first step in place - thats getting hold of the pill - we haven't done that for two years.

yep,well written,and sending the ball backwards for retention is a good way to see who has improved .

it puts players under pressure to improve,or be delisted at years end.

not unhappy with a lot of things he has enacted as yet,its teaching the players about whats required to expand the game plan further when we have enough players up for it.

also after 2 games i can see our clearance from pack situations has improved.

[The Reverend 1,736]

I understand the despair. I was there and witnessed exactly what you all saw. This is where I'm confused. I can't understand why I was able to sit and not feel as disappointed as those around me. As 14 goal losses go, and we've seen enough in recent years to be able to compare, I thought this was not as bad as some. Our players were always going to be outclassed. Anybody who seriously thought we would be challenging WC for a win were deluding themselves from the start. I sat and watched as the predictable outcome played itself out. Strangely though I was not angry. I was not frustrated. I was not all that disappointed. As a teacher, I know that sometimes you get a class that really struggles to grasp the basics. There's no point in getting annoyed with them. It's just as Roos said, they need to be taught the basics and work within a set of minimum expectations. I hope Roos and his assistants have the patience to do this. At the end of the year it will be pretty clear who can and can't meet the grade levels required to continue on to the following year. So, whilst I was not happy with the ease with which we were beaten, I thought I saw signs of hope. There is a game plan and they are trying to stick to it. When they get better at executing the skills required, we will start to be a challenge for a few sides. When we have a forward line, we might be able to combine the good work done in the midfield with some sound defence and actually kick a few goals each quarter. I think we can still turn this around and suspect that the second half of the season will see some improvement. Having said all that, I'm not sure I want to sit and watch too many more games like yesterday's.

In the meantime, I'll stay as positive as I can and look for the small steps toward lasting improvement.

[ManDee 7,124]

Take Cox, Kennedy, Darling, Sinclair out if their side and see how the result is.

Jamar, Clark, Dawes, hogan

We held the ball well, just lacked confidence going forward, which is to be expected. The game was a lot worse on the score board than actually was during the game.

Fitzy is struggling as a lone target, max gawn is a certain inclusion for next week!

We still would have lost by 7 goals.

[The Reverend 1,736]

We still would have lost by 7 goals.

Which would have been about par for the course if we're being realistic. On a handicap system, we would almost have gotten over the line.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,162]

I took both kids for the first time yesterday. It was depressing.

I also took my son to his first game yesterday, fortunately he's only 1 so has no idea of the lifetime of torment I've inflicted upon him. When I got home my wife said she actually felt sorry for our son and not in a condescending or mocking way, she was being heartfelt.

The best part of the day was when he saw the camels outside gate 3, should have gone home after that.

[Scoop Junior 3,435]

What we are witnessing is a list with a number of players who are not only scarred and completely devoid of confidence but are also seriously lacking in talent and footy nous. What a great combination to have.

People may bang on about playing for the jumper, putting in 100% effort, greater intensity, etc. but I'm not sure if such people were actually at the game yesterday.

There was nothing wrong with our effort, our desire, our intensity. I thought we tried hard and battled on for four quarters. The difference was the gulf in class, talent, footy nous and confidence.

Early in the game West Coast dominated out of the centre, but I thought we gradually became more competitive in that area after quarter time. What killed us after quarter time was either a terrible kick or a stupid decision forward of centre that created either a turnover or a 50/50 (which the Eagles invariably won). From there the Eagles would just counter-attack and run in numbers down the ground and kick an easy goal. Yes, a few tall forwards would have definitely helped, but this does not excuse the sheer ineptitude on display during some of our forward moves and the way we failed to defend the turnover.

Unfortunately it looks like we are a League 1 side playing in the English Premier League. We are playing in a division that at this point in time is too good for us. That's not to say it will always be this way, but the simple fact is we are a long, long, long way off even being competitive with the top sides in the league. You can make excuses each week and say this and that, but on talent and confidence and decision making we are currently not up to scratch. We're not an AFL standard team and that's why we cop 100 point beltings.

It's just so depressing when you watch a round of AFL footy and see some great games, close contests and tight battles, and then you rock up to watch your team (something that we all love doing) and the game is not even a contest at any stage. You get nothing from it - no highlights, no memorable passage of play, nothing to enjoy - and perhaps even worse you don't feel any emotion. I just sat there watching the game totally withdrawn, with no rage and no anger at what was unfolding in front of me. Can you imagine a more peaceful 100 point loss? Normally you would feel gutted, but not us Melbourne supporters, we've had it all beaten out of us to the point where we just turn up waiting for it to happen.

[jazza 1,323]

I also took my son to his first game yesterday, .

monster.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

What we are witnessing is a list with a number of players who are not only scarred and completely devoid of confidence but are also seriously lacking in talent and footy nous. What a great combination to have.

People may bang on about playing for the jumper, putting in 100% effort, greater intensity, etc. but I'm not sure if such people were actually at the game yesterday.

There was nothing wrong with our effort, our desire, our intensity. I thought we tried hard and battled on for four quarters. The difference was the gulf in class, talent, footy nous and confidence.

Early in the game West Coast dominated out of the centre, but I thought we gradually became more competitive in that area after quarter time. What killed us after quarter time was either a terrible kick or a stupid decision forward of centre that created either a turnover or a 50/50 (which the Eagles invariably won). From there the Eagles would just counter-attack and run in numbers down the ground and kick an easy goal. Yes, a few tall forwards would have definitely helped, but this does not excuse the sheer ineptitude on display during some of our forward moves and the way we failed to defend the turnover.

Unfortunately it looks like we are a League 1 side playing in the English Premier League. We are playing in a division that at this point in time is too good for us. That's not to say it will always be this way, but the simple fact is we are a long, long, long way off even being competitive with the top sides in the league. You can make excuses each week and say this and that, but on talent and confidence and decision making we are currently not up to scratch. We're not an AFL standard team and that's why we cop 100 point beltings.

It's just so depressing when you watch a round of AFL footy and see some great games, close contests and tight battles, and then you rock up to watch your team (something that we all love doing) and the game is not even a contest at any stage. You get nothing from it - no highlights, no memorable passage of play, nothing to enjoy - and perhaps even worse you don't feel any emotion. I just sat there watching the game totally withdrawn, with no rage and no anger at what was unfolding in front of me. Can you imagine a more peaceful 100 point loss? Normally you would feel gutted, but not us Melbourne supporters, we've had it all beaten out of us to the point where we just turn up waiting for it to happen.

You say it all Scoop. I am tired of platitudes and excuses. We stuffed up big time over the last decade and we're now paying this inordinate price. To talk about mitigating circumstances, in the case of the MFC, is to somehow portray us as unique. Like, no other club has had to contend with drafting, injuries and list management issues to the extent that we have?

We just have to suck it up, previous regimes got things so monumentally wrong, that we will pay the price for a while to come yet. Sure, our possession count has improved; no question. But we are still incredibly bereft of talent, which is unparalleled with any other AFL team.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

You say it all Scoop. I am tired of platitudes and excuses. We stuffed up big time over the last decade and we're now paying this inordinate price. To talk about mitigating circumstances, in the case of the MFC, is to somehow portray us as unique. Like, no other club has had to contend with drafting, injuries and list management issues to the extent that we have?

We just have to suck it up, previous regimes got things so monumentally wrong, that we will pay the price for a while to come yet. Sure, our possession count has improved; no question. But we are still incredibly bereft of talent, which is unparalleled with any other AFL team.

Agree with what you and Scoop have said

Wanted to add although it had to happen rightly or wrongly (moving on Bailey and Neeld) has also set the club back a long way as development (if any) and list management was thrown out the door with the new regimes....

We are years behind the competition in terms of development and players - I believe the only way to get back on top is back in the Roos regime to the hilt. We can't keep chopping and changing and expect batter results will happen instantly

That's my 2 cents anyway

[praha 11,232]

Is there any point being negative?

It's the same every week unfortunately.

We all know where we stand.

Can't wait Until we get some forwards to straighten us up.

Looks like another yr of watching the good teams play and wishing it was Melbourne.

It's very tiring being a Melbourne supporter.

That's rather...negative of you.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Agree with what you and Scoop have said

Wanted to add although it had to happen rightly or wrongly (moving on Bailey and Neeld) has also set the club back a long way as development (if any) and list management was thrown out the door with the new regimes....

We are years behind the competition in terms of development and players - I believe the only way to get back on top is back in the Roos regime to the hilt. We can't keep chopping and changing and expect batter results will happen instantly

That's my 2 cents anyway

And 2 cents of some worth. We must stick by Roos. If he can't do it, I am not sure anybody else can. Jackson has managed to restore a semblance of credibility off the field, but as he says himself, previous regimes have betrayed the trust of supporters and PJ and his team's job is to earn that trust back. As PJ is on the record as saying, you can only really start doing that by improved performances on field. Let's hope it comes. I will maintain my faith in that regard. It is simply a non-negiotiable that the club earns back the respect of not only its long suffering supporters, but the football world in general.

[ManDee 7,124]

All doom and gloom. Look on the bright side. All those pledge per win supporters stand to save a fortune this year.

Thanks, I have just ordered a recliner, my guess paid for from pledge savings. I can now lay back in my recliner and cry myself to sleep in absolute comfort.

Edited March 31, 2014 by ManDee

[P-man 13,366]

My faith in Roos has only strengthened since he's been here. His presser yesterday was exactly what I wanted to hear from a senior coach.

If anyone can fix this trainwreck it's him.

[Knifey Spoony 3]

Was there yesterday and thought i'd post my observations:

- We were severely undersized yesterday in terms of KPP. They had Kennedy, NicNat, Cox, Glass, Darling, Sinclair, Mackenzie and Brown

- We had Fitz, Perderson, Frawley, Spencer, Dunn, McDonald and Georgiou

- As many have said before...effort was there but the execution of kicking and other fundamentals killed any momentum we had.

- I thought West Coast played pretty well, their spread and ability to get back and clog up our forward line made it quite difficult for melbourne to get any run on.

- Our kicking to the HF / Inside 50 hurt us badly and West Coast were able to use their spare defended to rebound quickly. I would have hoped that we could get the ball a bit deeper to atleast allow our forwards to try and keep the ball in (4th quarter looked marginally better)

- We did have a few plays where we controlled the ball from the back 50 and work the ball all the way into our 50 and hit up a target.

- Cross, Dunn, N Jones and Tyson were all fantastic.

- Highlight of the day was that my obnoxious West Coast supporting mate managed to win a bet on shuey first goal & WC 60+ so atleast he brought dinner!

[nrc73 77]

I still think we're in front of previous years, where the game plan was very suspect. This time the game plan isn't as suspect and it's the lack of skill / smarts / whatever that's plain to see. I don't think the game plan is overly complicated. The inability to execute something more robust is there for all to see.

Agree with all Scoop said - reality has finally hit Roos and his reaction will be closely watched.

Remember, it's not just Roos but a whole team of new coaches learning how fragile these players are. How much pressure you think there'll be on the forward line coaches over the coming weeks?

Edited March 31, 2014 by nrc73

[Older demon 2,741]

Post match thoughts as I watched the replay at the gym this morning. It all starts in the midfield and we got smashed with the hitouts to advantage. Pencil needs to do something else around the ground to be of value if he isn't getting tap outs and Fitz had little or no impact at all, I hope he wasn't still foggy from last week. His stats of no kicks no marks means compared to Cox, Naitanui and the third tall we were 1 man down. The ability to get the ball maintain possession is something I didn't see last year but until we get some forward targets we will continue to turn the ball over because our run and spread and ability to hit targets isn't up to scratch. I was horrified at the number of dropped chest marks and broken tackles which apart from the obvious ones of Fitz and Jack I hadn't noticed.

I will be interested to see who is the first to go back to Casey. maybe Michie, Trengove and Matt Jones as all fumbled, missed targets by hand and foot and Of for a Ruckman who contributes around the ground