always goes back to the same question though - if Watts was with West Coast and Toumpas with Port, how would they be going? Do you really think Wines would be looking as good if he was wearing red and blue? People need to step back and look at the big picture, how is it possible that we draft dud after dud, surely we would have got one good one by accident by now! It's the club, nothing works here and if you got drafted to us you would cry

It almost has nothing to do with how well they are playing. In the case of Watts, Toumpas they both have that split second of indecision if they will commit to the contest. Viney doesn't have it and neither does Wines.

Yes, they are outside players but even outside players need to be comfortable with the physicality of the game and at the moment it is holding them back from becoming good AFL footballers.

always goes back to the same question though - if Watts was with West Coast and Toumpas with Port, how would they be going? Do you really think Wines would be looking as good if he was wearing red and blue? People need to step back and look at the big picture, how is it possible that we draft dud after dud, surely we would have got one good one by accident by now! It's the club, nothing works here and if you got drafted to us you would cry

I don't disagree with a single word.

You're right, Wines would not be as advanced at our club. He is though a big bodied mid, so would be in a far better position than most.

always goes back to the same question though - if Watts was with West Coast and Toumpas with Port, how would they be going? Do you really think Wines would be looking as good if he was wearing red and blue? People need to step back and look at the big picture, how is it possible that we draft dud after dud, surely we would have got one good one by accident by now! It's the club, nothing works here and if you got drafted to us you would cry

Oh yeah.

Gysberts, Morton and Cook really, really thrived at their new clubs.

Nothing wrong with facing the music. Suggestions of preferring to play softer targets makes me cringe. Sooner or later we'll turn this thing around. Our pre season has surely given our "available players" valuable insight and we haven't lost any premiership points.

We new we were short of big blokes up front today as evidenced by our 4 goals. They had us cold on matchups from the word go. I feel sure we will improve in that area as we progress.

agree

& also think that with no big blokes threatening up front, it make s the mids work harder on defence to help out... & shows out 'Who Are Prepared', to bust a gut both ways,,, at this point.

valuable insights for the selectors & coach, for the start of the season.

I hope Freeman is not a better player than Salem. This place will explode.

I hope Freeman is not a better player than Salem. This place will explode.

not too mention the loyal Members o' dee Northern Stand, pulling it down

The thing that stood out for me was the constant openness of their players through the midfield. From ground level it was hard to see what was going on and why our men weren't manning up.

I think it may take some time to learn to stay composed under yet another game-style, for the Mids; & the Defenders, & Half Forwards,,, of what to do & when. Where to position in all situations, & the confidence to do it Intuitively.

Oh yeah.

Gysberts, Morton and Cook really, really thrived at their new clubs.

I guess that just adds weight to what C&B is saying.

I suppose the positive is we now have a video of our new gameplan getting taken apart by a better side, will be good for the team to see what good sides are going to try and do and be able to pre empt a little bit rather than wait for them to kick a couple of goals and then slow them down

I agree, & the boys will be seeing now, as we don't have the long get out of jail card open to us, that we're getting hemmed in on the back flanks. I didn't see the game yesterday, but up in 'the Alice', we got locked down on the half-back boundary, causing us to overuse & misuse.

I think it's time we take note of the lesson of Watts and apply it to Toumpas. Ie. it's time for Jimmy to play a stretch of VFL and become and inside and out VFL midfielder who wins contested ball, tackles etc. He did a few nice things but also a lot of running up and down on the spot unable to get in to the game (as most forwards can't in a team like the one yesterday). It's going to suck seeing Bail and Byrnes play over Toumpas when they butcher the ball but come the second half of the year Toumpas will be much better for it.

Watts. I'm at a loss with him. I just don't understand where his head is at. He picked up the ball and got slammed in tackles a few times yesterday. Yet he never seems to respond with what I think is the natural response and the one I always have playing footy. Ie. If I get caught and bumped around a bit I start going harder and more direct. I'm a rubbish footballer playing in the reserves but at least when things aren't working I try and have a dip.

now there ya Go....

let the coaches instill the right attitudes into our kids first.

no games given out to the kids until their doing all the required things intuitively...

Someone givem a ring and see if they're still up for it

no, just give him a ring, Via his manager.

& chat to them, they may need a ruck or 2, or others?

but, would we prefer Wines, if we could get him; or Shiel ?

Seem to remember Sheedy was a great fan of Grgic as well.

So it goes.

If Roos had been coach, Toumpas would still be in the twos, possibly getting a gig late 2014, same as Salem probably won't get a game til 2015 at best. Roos in yesterdays presser made a point of saying in the past players were getting games when they shouldn't; not any more.

if Roos had coached Grgik, or a Sheedy, who knows what would have happened to Brent ? he might have been a player otherwise.

I guess that just adds weight to what C&B is saying.

Yes, I see what you mean.

But, changing environs didn't help them one bit.

For all the 'young' players such as Toumpas, listen to what Roos says in his post agame presser

I assume if we get everybody fit, if one of the young players isn't cutting it at AFL level, they will spend some time developing in VFL, he wants to see first

The only concern I have, for the first few weeks, if Roos can't manufacture a working forward structure, we are shot

I think we'll still beat the 'aints Rnd 1

... but from then on, we may be up against it for a month. to regain rhythm & composure..... having Clark & Garland,, join in with Dawes, Fitzpatrick & Howe, will add depth to the team, & will bring some much needed shape to our setups.

It almost has nothing to do with how well they are playing. In the case of Watts, Toumpas they both have that split second of indecision if they will commit to the contest. Viney doesn't have it and neither does Wines.

Yes, they are outside players but even outside players need to be comfortable with the physicality of the game and at the moment it is holding them back from becoming good AFL footballers.

this is personal confidence as well, & reflects the past lacking leadership around the club for over 10 years.

we becAme, 'Bruise Free', not overnight, but over years... around the time of just before Whelan finishing, & we weren't a real tough side before that.

Oh yeah.

Gysberts, Morton and Cook really, really thrived at their new clubs.

Agree and also You are talking about two different types of players Wines insider with outside nous, Toumpas totally outside!

Reality 1 if your inside mids can't get it your outside mids will starve!!

Reality 2 You never ever can have too many quality inside mids,

Just ask Hawthorn, Collingwood, Sydney et al.

Those leaping to Toumpas defence cannot seem to grasp this basic insight!

Oh yeah.

Gysberts, Morton and Cook really, really thrived at their new clubs.

what chance did they have after we ruined their developmental years?

what chance did they have after we ruined their developmental years?

I can only imagine your speaking with tongue in cheek.....

none were really any good

I can only imagine your speaking with tongue in cheek.....

none were really any good

I think Bennell, under the right tutelage may have become a different type than what he turned out, but a player. he was molly coddled, but also thrown to the wolves at the same time, not expected to do the hard things. spoilt him.

I think Bennell, under the right tutelage may have become a different type than what he turned out, but a player. he was molly coddled, but also thrown to the wolves at the same time, not expected to do the hard things. spoilt him.

And wasn't given as much opportunity as others..........

A lot of it comes down to the psychology of the individual.

It has been a massive flaw in our recruitment strategy over the years.

Toumpas is never going to be Wines, not before we drafted him - not ever.

The fact that our recruiters could not see the different between the two astounds me.

If we thrown out our recruiting agent 5 years back and got a run of the mill psychologist to assess our top 20 picks.

We would not be in the sorry state that we are in now.
Morton, Gysberts, Cook, Toumpas.. They are not only physically weak, but they are mentally weak, hence why they won't make it.

Physically and mentally, Ollie Wines was a stand out pick. Why do we continue to overlook the obvious?

I'd like to move from all the speculation back to the bleeding obvious...

Our new system broke down against the Hawks! Pretty obvious why... speedy pressure applied to opposition in possession by an extremely well drilled premiership team. We couldn't get the speedy, wide feed-off by hand, then spot up loose man leading up flank game plan working. To put it frankly... We caved in and then lost shape and confidence. Can Roos re-instil confidence by round 1? Maybe not, but I liked how he put it after the game.

Our game plan can't work when the opposition knows we have very few scoring options. Hogan was never going to be the plan, one out! We need desperately to get one or two of Gawn, Dawes, Clark, Jamar on the park (and don't snigger at the last named). For our plan to work we have to rely on a couple of scoring options keeping the opposition defenders from crowding us around stoppages. I know Clark will not be ready for round 1, but unless we can get Gawn and Dawes up, we can not win!

And wasn't given as much opportunity as others..........

He was given ample opportunity (57 games). The more games he played the closer his average disposal stat approximated his playing number.

I can only imagine your speaking with tongue in cheek.....

none were really any good

I know for a fact that some at the club think our previous development was so bad it virtually gave some players no chance at success.

I know for a fact that some at the club think our previous development was so bad it virtually gave some players no chance at success.

Nah

They were just crap selections from day1