On 14/12/2013 at 19:35, Whispering_Jack said:

No argument from me on that C & B but, after 7 years of mainly rubbish football from this club (preceded by a roller coaster few years before that), I think most of us are looking for something more concrete than optimistic reports of hope and the usual rose coloured glasses attitudes held by many. I'm still in the optimist camp but I've seen enough false dawns and messiahs to make me very wary at this time of the year.

Don't forget Watt's wink.

  On 14/12/2013 at 21:44, Ben-Hur said:

But, importantly, they do far more running at top speed during their training. They're establishing a strong base during their skills session and topping up on completion.

I have only seen one session, friday, but on what I saw, I agree.

  On 14/12/2013 at 22:11, Redleg said:

Don't forget Watt's wink.

Well that does it then. Where do I buy my tickets to the Grand Final?

  On 14/12/2013 at 19:35, Whispering_Jack said:

but, after 7 years of mainly rubbish football from this club (preceded by a roller coaster few years before that),

5 final series out of the previous 7 years or 3 out of 3 before the 7 years in the wilderness a roller coaster?

Time to live a bit Jack, that's not even a bumpy road.

i'd have thought roller coaster a very apt description for that period

as would most of my demon friends

  On 14/12/2013 at 21:44, Ben-Hur said:

There's no doubt about this, even though, Whispering Death (not Jack) refuted this a while back. The difference between the two is immense. Neale Daniher was very hands on at training, but Roos takes it up a notch from Neale.

Other regulars are welcome to challenge my view, but the players did more running last year under Neeld. They torched them before they kicked a ball. This year they do their repeat sprints and distance running after skills. But, importantly, they do far more running at top speed during their training. They're establishing a strong base during their skills session and topping up on completion.

Misson had a great reputation from his days at the Saints and Swans. He would have told Neeld how far behind they were in fitness and designed running programs. As to who mapped out the specifics around the running sessions one assumes it would have been Neeld. But as we all know this is only part of it. Most of the group didn't want to play for Neeld and certainly didn't want to push through barriers for him. Confidence, belief and enjoyment are wondrous things. The mind is the single most important element in human beings performing to their optimum level. Roos naturally encourages people to be their best and initiates the right environment. Neeld didn't and perhaps couldn't.

I don't think it's a matter of Roos following on or endorsing anything from Neeld, more-so being briefed by Misson as to where the group is at and recognising the mistakes that were made in their previous training programs.

And since Jackson was appointed the players don't now run the club and have know where to hide not like in the past, Neeld can be blamed for a lot of things by people but it also changed the club in the long run.

  On 14/12/2013 at 23:44, demon3165 said:

Neeld can be blamed for a lot of things by people but it also changed the club in the long run.

I agree with this. He did bring a level of professionalism to the club that will be his greatest legacy.

  On 14/12/2013 at 23:48, Ben-Hur said:

I agree with this. He did bring a level of professionalism to the club that will be his greatest legacy.

It worries me what will happen if he leaves to soon there are a lot of very ordinary people at Melbourne that don't recognise they are.

  On 14/12/2013 at 23:21, Baghdad Bob said:

5 final series out of the previous 7 years or 3 out of 3 before the 7 years in the wilderness a roller coaster?

Time to live a bit Jack, that's not even a bumpy road.

My recollection is that while we made the finals in 2004 to 2006, it was still very much a roller coaster ride with some real highs and lows (my idea of a very bumpy road) during each of them.

Top of the ladder in round 18, 2004 then finished the season with barely a whimper losing the last four games going from 14-4 to 14-8 followed by elimination in the first week of the finals .

In 2005 we were 9-3 and in second place after giving Collingwood a flogging in round 12 on the QB weekend (albeit that they were tanking)and we then lost 7 in a row to drop to 11th by round 19. Some of those defeats were real floggings and our percentage dropped from 121.5 to 91.5. We were saved by three narrow wins (Geelong at Skilled by a point, the Bulldogs by 4 points - thank you Jeff White - and lowly Essendon by 10 points) which enabled us to scrape into the finals. Eliminated by Geelong first up by 55 points.

Then we get to 2006 when we lost the first three games and were 15th after round 3 before going to 11-4 after a purple patch and finishing up with only 2½ more wins for the season to drop to 7th. We suffered a 10 goal thrashing at the hands of Adelaide in round 22 while, a week earlier, we squandered a 38-point lead in our draw at the Cattery. We then beat St. Kilda in the elimination final before going down to the Dockers 11.8 to 14.18 in a game in which we were never in the hunt.

In the following year, we lost the first nine games on end and our years of doom and gloom were well under way.

I call that a "roller coaster" notwithstanding that we fell into the bottom half of the finals of each of the three years. As to your claim that it's "not even a bumpy road" -

Unfortunately, the club failed to see the warning signs that should have been evident during that crucial time when senior players were given a free rein to play as they wished (often selfishly) and there was little regard to proper succession of leadership or younger players being given more responsibility. As for our recruiting - pfffft! Neale Daniher was past his use by date but we were all seduced (myself included) by the fact that we were making finals but in fact, this was the time when the foundations were laid for the disastrous era to come. That includes the four wasted Bailey years and the last two under Neeld.

I hope we, as a club, have learned our lesson and can move forward in the future but let's not ignore or sweep under the carpet what happened in our past.

  On 14/12/2013 at 21:40, Moonshadow said:

LF didn't Butterfant just part ways with the Pies? He would have been a good candidate. I'm not unhappy with Misson though.

I could be wrong here but I believe the general opinion is that Buttifant was always going to reunite with Malthouse (so not available?)..

On a side note, to me Buckley seems to have people issues. But Collingwood are better media managers and/or the media are too scared to call out Eddie.

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:00, Whispering_Jack said:

My recollection is that while we made the finals in 2004 to 2006, it was still very much a roller coaster ride with some real highs and lows (my idea of a very bumpy road) during each of them.

Top of the ladder in round 18, 2004 then finished the season with barely a whimper losing the last four games going from 14-4 to 14-8 followed by elimination in the first week of the finals .

In 2005 we were 9-3 and in second place after giving Collingwood a flogging in round 12 on the QB weekend (albeit that they were tanking)and we then lost 7 in a row to drop to 11th by round 19. Some of those defeats were real floggings and our percentage dropped from 121.5 to 91.5. We were saved by three narrow wins (Geelong at Skilled by a point, the Bulldogs by 4 points - thank you Jeff White - and lowly Essendon by 10 points) which enabled us to scrape into the finals. Eliminated by Geelong first up by 55 points.

Then we get to 2006 when we lost the first three games and were 15th after round 3 before going to 11-4 after a purple patch and finishing up with only 2½ more wins for the season to drop to 7th. We suffered a 10 goal thrashing at the hands of Adelaide in round 22 while, a week earlier, we squandered a 38-point lead in our draw at the Cattery. We then beat St. Kilda in the elimination final before going down to the Dockers 11.8 to 14.18 in a game in which we were never in the hunt.

In the following year, we lost the first nine games on end and our years of doom and gloom were well under way.

I call that a "roller coaster" notwithstanding that we fell into the bottom half of the finals of each of the three years. As to your claim that it's "not even a bumpy road" -

Unfortunately, the club failed to see the warning signs that should have been evident during that crucial time when senior players were given a free rein to play as they wished (often selfishly) and there was little regard to proper succession of leadership or younger players being given more responsibility. As for our recruiting - pfffft! Neale Daniher was past his use by date but we were all seduced (myself included) by the fact that we were making finals but in fact, this was the time when the foundations were laid for the disastrous era to come. That includes the four wasted Bailey years and the last two under Neeld.

I hope we, as a club, have learned our lesson and can move forward in the future but let's not ignore or sweep under the carpet what happened in our past.

Touché

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:00, Whispering_Jack said:

Neale Daniher was past his use by date but we were all seduced (myself included) by the fact that we were making finals

I never was, because we were only ever making up the numbers. Even in 2004 when we sat atop the ladder after round 18.

  On 14/12/2013 at 23:33, daisycutter said:

i'd have thought roller coaster a very apt description for that period

as would most of my demon friends

Perhaps you'd prefer the flat road we've been on the last 7 years.

  On 14/12/2013 at 21:44, The Myth said:

There's no doubt about this, even though, Whispering Death (not Jack) refuted this a while back. The difference between the two is immense. Neale Daniher was very hands on at training, but Roos takes it up a notch from Neale.

Other regulars are welcome to challenge my view, but the players did more running last year under Neeld. They torched them before they kicked a ball. This year they do their repeat sprints and distance running after skills. But, importantly, they do far more running at top speed during their training. They're establishing a strong base during their skills session and topping up on completion.

Misson had a great reputation from his days at the Saints and Swans. He would have told Neeld how far behind they were in fitness and designed running programs. As to who mapped out the specifics around the running sessions one assumes it would have been Neeld. But as we all know this is only part of it. Most of the group didn't want to play for Neeld and certainly didn't want to push through barriers for him. Confidence, belief and enjoyment are wondrous things. The mind is the single most important element in human beings performing to their optimum level. Roos naturally encourages people to be their best and initiates the right environment. Neeld didn't and perhaps couldn't.

I don't think it's a matter of Roos following on or endorsing anything from Neeld, more-so being briefed by Misson as to where the group is at and recognising the mistakes that were made in their previous training programs.

I'd of liked that post, but someone has taken away the like button since the last time I was here.

Good post.

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:33, Baghdad Bob said:

Perhaps you'd prefer the flat road we've been on the last 7 years.

Is that supposed to be funny or clever?

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:40, daisycutter said:

Is that supposed to be funny or clever?

The roller coaster occured in 98,99,2000 and 01. What happened between 2002 and 2006 was pretty consistent unless you want to consider a win verses a loss a roller coaster. We were bottom half of the 8 in 2004,5 and 6. Rollercoaster - rubbish.

Daniher got remarkable results from an ordinary list with minimal resources and facilities. There is no doubt that by the time he left the list was old and needed renewing, but trying to lay the responsibility of our position now after 7 years and eleven or twelve (depending how you want to argue it) top 20 picks since 2007 on Daniher is just dumb. Hawthorn were bottom 4 in 2004 and 2005 and since have won two flags and been regular finalists since 2007. The Bulldogs were bottom 4 in 2002 and 2003 and played finals 2006 and 2008+.

We were bottom 4 in 2007 and in 2013 won 2 games one against a development team in 2013 finishing 17th and yet the responsibility rests with Daniher running the list into the ground.

Pffttt.

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:59, Baghdad Bob said:

The roller coaster occured in 98,99,2000 and 01. What happened between 2002 and 2006 was pretty consistent unless you want to consider a win verses a loss a roller coaster. We were bottom half of the 8 in 2004,5 and 6. Rollercoaster - rubbish.

Daniher got remarkable results from an ordinary list with minimal resources and facilities. There is no doubt that by the time he left the list was old and needed renewing, but trying to lay the responsibility of our position now after 7 years and eleven or twelve (depending how you want to argue it) top 20 picks since 2007 on Daniher is just dumb. Hawthorn were bottom 4 in 2004 and 2005 and since have won two flags and been regular finalists since 2007. The Bulldogs were bottom 4 in 2002 and 2003 and played finals 2006 and 2008+.

We were bottom 4 in 2007 and in 2013 won 2 games one against a development team in 2013 finishing 17th and yet the responsibility rests with Daniher running the list into the ground.

Pffttt.

2002, 2003, 2004 was a bit of a rollercoaster.

I agree Daniher isn't responsible for anything 2010 on wards really. He made his run, it fell well short, rebuilding already started in 2007 and then Bailey came in after that.

I'm pretty comfortably entrenched in my view that Daniher left a poor quality of senior player. His run seemed characterised by the type of player who had a one great season but could never back it up, hence why we often looked the goods in 2004-2006 early and mid season but fell away when the going got tough.

He was a very good coach who gave us a period of success whilst working in massively under resourced conditions but he had short comings. The first rebuild can be put on him, the second and now third rebuild shouldn't be.

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:59, Baghdad Bob said:

The roller coaster occured in 98,99,2000 and 01. What happened between 2002 and 2006 was pretty consistent unless you want to consider a win verses a loss a roller coaster. We were bottom half of the 8 in 2004,5 and 6. Rollercoaster - rubbish.

Daniher got remarkable results from an ordinary list with minimal resources and facilities. There is no doubt that by the time he left the list was old and needed renewing, but trying to lay the responsibility of our position now after 7 years and eleven or twelve (depending how you want to argue it) top 20 picks since 2007 on Daniher is just dumb. Hawthorn were bottom 4 in 2004 and 2005 and since have won two flags and been regular finalists since 2007. The Bulldogs were bottom 4 in 2002 and 2003 and played finals 2006 and 2008+.

We were bottom 4 in 2007 and in 2013 won 2 games one against a development team in 2013 finishing 17th and yet the responsibility rests with Daniher running the list into the ground.

Pffttt.

i thought jack's description of a roller coaster period accurately portrayed my feelings at that time

i remember being frustrated by the big changes in form and the inconsistencies

if you have different memories that's nice

  On 15/12/2013 at 01:47, daisycutter said:

i thought jack's description of a roller coaster period accurately portrayed my feelings at that time

i remember being frustrated by the big changes in form and the inconsistencies

if you have different memories that's nice

The worst part about the latter part of Daniher's reign is that even though we were regular finalists we were still crap and not a genuine flag threat. So I agree, it always felt like a roller coaster and even when the highs and lows had finished the feeling never changed. Baggy is using stats to prove a point, but your memory of those emotions hasn't failed you.

  On 15/12/2013 at 00:00, Whispering_Jack said:

My recollection is that while we made the finals in 2004 to 2006, it was still very much a roller coaster ride with some real highs and lows (my idea of a very bumpy road) during each of them.

Top of the ladder in round 18, 2004 then finished the season with barely a whimper losing the last four games going from 14-4 to 14-8 followed by elimination in the first week of the finals .

In 2005 we were 9-3 and in second place after giving Collingwood a flogging in round 12 on the QB weekend (albeit that they were tanking)and we then lost 7 in a row to drop to 11th by round 19. Some of those defeats were real floggings and our percentage dropped from 121.5 to 91.5. We were saved by three narrow wins (Geelong at Skilled by a point, the Bulldogs by 4 points - thank you Jeff White - and lowly Essendon by 10 points) which enabled us to scrape into the finals. Eliminated by Geelong first up by 55 points.

Then we get to 2006 when we lost the first three games and were 15th after round 3 before going to 11-4 after a purple patch and finishing up with only 2½ more wins for the season to drop to 7th. We suffered a 10 goal thrashing at the hands of Adelaide in round 22 while, a week earlier, we squandered a 38-point lead in our draw at the Cattery. We then beat St. Kilda in the elimination final before going down to the Dockers 11.8 to 14.18 in a game in which we were never in the hunt.

In the following year, we lost the first nine games on end and our years of doom and gloom were well under way.

I call that a "roller coaster" notwithstanding that we fell into the bottom half of the finals of each of the three years. As to your claim that it's "not even a bumpy road" -

Unfortunately, the club failed to see the warning signs that should have been evident during that crucial time when senior players were given a free rein to play as they wished (often selfishly) and there was little regard to proper succession of leadership or younger players being given more responsibility. As for our recruiting - pfffft! Neale Daniher was past his use by date but we were all seduced (myself included) by the fact that we were making finals but in fact, this was the time when the foundations were laid for the disastrous era to come. That includes the four wasted Bailey years and the last two under Neeld.

I hope we, as a club, have learned our lesson and can move forward in the future but let's not ignore or sweep under the carpet what happened in our past.

A roller coaster indeed! Just like at a fun park, the 'ride' titillated the imagination, took us nowhere, and ended with a feeling of nausea. Who among us after a string wins didn't dread a loss, because we knew in our hearts that it would most likely be the first in a string of losses?

I'd take one of Daniher's roller coaster years ATM. Football was fun back then!

  On 14/12/2013 at 01:32, Satyriconhome said:

we won't see the results of that until the NAB Cup and the first few games.

I don't think anyone should be judging progress on the NAB Cup or whatever it's called next year. If you look at Roos record, he only ever won one NAB Cup game in his entire tenure at the Swans. He only uses them as practice matches to try out the full list not to win games.

If the club is smart, they will use the NAB cup as a tool to build confidence. a win is a win is win in the case of the club. Roos is not coaching the Swans any more.

  On 15/12/2013 at 03:52, Demonsterative said:

If the club is smart, they will use the NAB cup as a tool to build confidence. a win is a win is win in the case of the club. Roos is not coaching the Swans any more.

I'd rather Roos does whatever it takes to get this team as competitive as it can be. If they get a few of the potentially winnable games in the first few rounds it will do a lot more for memberships than a few meaningless wins in this new NAB Cup comp.

To study history properly requires people to engage in active questioning and learning, and not merely in the passive absorption of facts, names, and dates.

Therefore a real understanding of history requires an engagement in historical reasoning; listening to and reading historical stories, narratives, and literature with meaning; thinking through cause-effect relationships; analysis of documents, photographs, film, newspapers and records of the past.

You don't need to have consensus but its worthwhile to respect other peoples opinions which requires being able to understand and interpret what they say and not to distort because you simply dont like what you hear or read. Hence, my point that our decline began when we were making the finals under Neale Daniher and making mistakes at that time has been distorted into a suggestion that I blame him and him alone for the current state of the club. This is simply untrue I dont lay the blame on any one person for the mess were in which, in my view, is the collective responsibility of many.

I've said before that we should always try to understand how we got into a place (i.e lean our history) so that we dont repeat the same mistakes in the future or as the philosopher Santayana more famously put it:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.