Jordie McKenzie

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,394]

How about that, after one win Jordie has become a straw man.

How about Jordie becomes this tackling machine I keep hearing about.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

After one win Jordie enjoys stardom status. I'll say it again, Pendles , Kennedy, Watson, Ablett, Barlow , Selwood can rack up huge numbers and still manage more tackles then a player who's primary role is a stopper. We know he tries but he is not the tackling machine some on here would have you believe. He's never going to be better than an average player. Bring Trengove back in and give him McKenzies role against Ablett. At least he might hurt them going the other way.

With you here AD.

It's a hard task coming to demonland and adopting an objective and non-bias view on everything football concerned. But when it comes to our own players, especially after a win, it's as if it's taboo to critique someones performance on a day in which our club wins.

Here are some home truths that I'm sure most people are aware of but perhaps may not want to hear.

Jordie's efforts as a player trying to cut it at this level are of course admirable, but the reality is, he wouldn't be getting a gig in a top 8 side's midfield. The fact that he plays as a stopper in our side still says a lot about where our list is at.

Against a Carlton side bereft of confidence and inspiration, I certainly don't share the same love for McKenzie's game as what others are posting here. Gibbs is clearly out of form and has never been a huge numbers winner so I'd hardly say McKenzie's role was influential on Saturday.

He have away free kicks for holding. Numerous times. He does not have the ability nor the mentality to hurt the opposition on the fly. He is an extremely limited player, and one who over time will with others, need to make way if we're to significantly improve as a side.

That's the reality of the situation. If you look at any of the elite stoppers of the game, you'll find that they do a great deal more than just hold the jumper of the opposition player. They're dangerous on the attack, can make their player more accountable.

Nathan Jones' job on Marc Murphy is the one people should look at and marvel at and it's he who I'd be sending to Ablett on the weekend, not Jordie.

I wish supporters would take off their MFC jumpers and badges for a minute and really dissect where the list is at.

With another period of trading for some quality mids next year, I'm almost certain McKenzie will not be getting games. We need to improve as a club. One win doesn't mean we should be congratulating every player for their efforts. The club is bigger than the individual and whilst I'm sure he will take the field for most of the season and play with all his heart, I look forward to the day where we have enough quality and depth to the side that players of McKenzie's ability will be squeezed out.

Edited April 14, 2014 by stevethemanjordan

[nutbean 8,838]

I think when Trengove returns he should be tried in a tagging role, in place of McKenzie. It couldn't hurt.

Yeah it could hurt. McKenzie is limited but he can play to his limitations. He is a tagger - nothing more nothing less. He has styled his game on standing on his opponents, not letting them get an inch away from him and nullifying. IAs you saw with Macaffer - it is a skill to not let your opponent get more than an arms length away from you. His main issue has been his disposal and I suggest that with better structures he will find it easier to give the ball off successful as our players will learn to make more space and free themselves up. His disposal was better on Saturday.

Trengove worries me - whether it be injury or not, I don't know. His is slow both in speed, in lateral movement and decision making and that makes him a liability in any role you try to play him. I don't think Trengove is quick enough of mind or foot at the moment to tag anyone.

[nutbean 8,838]

Bring Trengove back in and give him McKenzies role against Ablett. At least he might hurt them going the other way.

You can back in 40 plus touches and 3 brownlow votes.

Do you think Ablett is the sort of footballer you want to experiment with to see if Trengove is a good tagger ?

[nutbean 8,838]

All players need to tackle and not let the opposition dispose of the ball,..

You do realise that some players are a lot better at it than others and that will always be the case ?

[nutbean 8,838]

, I look forward to the day where we have enough quality and depth to the side that players of McKenzie's ability will be squeezed out.

Or I look forward to the day that we have a gun midfield and the likes of McKenzie improve under that sort of midfield ( and coaching) and becomes like Crowley or Ling. ( Ling for the first 3/4's of his career was nothing more than an averaged skilled tagger with exceptional stopping skills. He was fortunate to have a sensational midfield around him)

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Or I look forward to the day that we have a gun midfield and the likes of McKenzie improve under that sort of midfield ( and coaching) and becomes like Crowley or Ling. ( Ling for the first 3/4's of his career was nothing more than an averaged skilled tagger with exceptional stopping skills. He was fortunate to have a sensational midfield around him)

McKenzie won't be getting a game if and when we have a 'gun' midfield.

The game has passed the ling types. It gets faster every year.

Crowley is a completely different player to ling and McKenzie. Why do you think he's the best in the business at what he does?

McKenzie doesn't possess the same tools as Crowley.

Are you saying Morton and Gysberts would be great players in a midfield of 'guns'?

You have to be able to do more than just 'tag' in modern day football.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,394]

You do realise that some players are a lot better at it than others and that will always be the case ?

It reminds me off the movie Bruno when he interviews the model. "If must be really hard being a model, left foot then right foot then........oh that's right left foot again.

To lay a tackle- firstly get close to your opponent, secondly put both arms around the opponent in am attempt to stop the disposal of the ball, thirdly put the opponent into the ground. Wow that was difficult.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,394]

You can back in 40 plus touches and 3 brownlow votes.

Do you think Ablett is the sort of footballer you want to experiment with to see if Trengove is a good tagger ?

Well Trengove can tackle, mark and kick better than Jordie. So that's a start. As for speed, it's not something I associate with Jordie. I actually like Steve's idea of running Jones with him. If Jordie must play send him to Jäger.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,394]

Last year or early this year I dragged up Jordie's tackle numbers are they were less than flattering. Disappointing considering it's all we are really asking of him. As has been mentioned we all appreciate his efforts but we must look for other options .

[PJ_12345 1,098]

McKenzie won't be getting a game if and when we have a 'gun' midfield.

The game has passed the ling types. It gets faster every year.

Crowley is a completely different player to ling and McKenzie. Why do you think he's the best in the business at what he does?

McKenzie doesn't possess the same tools as Crowley.

Are you saying Morton and Gysberts would be great players in a midfield of 'guns'?

You have to be able to do more than just 'tag' in modern day football.

Macaffer proved valuable just tagging Cotchin (and in response to your previous post did give away 4 frees)

Just playing the devils advocate, and I agree with everything else you've said

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Macaffer proved valuable just tagging Cotchin (and in response to your previous post did give away 4 frees)

Just playing the devils advocate, and I agree with everything else you've said

He did that particular night. However we've seen him played in many roles before. He can go forward and kick goals. He's a decent contested mark. He has a few strings to his bow.

That's what I'm trying to stress here. A 'tagger' or 'run-with' player in a successful side needs to be able to offer more than just holding a player's jumper all game. And if we want to become a successful team, we're going to need to find a 'tagger' who can offer more than what McKenzie has to offer. (Executing the fundamental skills of the game for starters..)

[nutbean 8,838]

McKenzie won't be getting a game if and when we have a 'gun' midfield.

The game has passed the ling types. It gets faster every year.

Crowley is a completely different player to ling and McKenzie. Why do you think he's the best in the business at what he does?

McKenzie doesn't possess the same tools as Crowley.

Are you saying Morton and Gysberts would be great players in a midfield of 'guns'?

You have to be able to do more than just 'tag' in modern day football.

Pretty dismissive of Ling I would have thought - considering he was All australian and best and fairest at Geelong.

In answer to your question on Crowley - it is exactly the points I was making. Crowley is the best in the business because he has honed his skills and he has a hell a lot of help around him. When the help around him fails as has happened against Hawthorn a couple of weeks he got completely chopped up by Mitchell.

As to your Morton and Gysberts question - I'll respond to that nonsense - please tell me exactly where I said those two had any skillset whatsoever.

As to your comment about needing to do more than just tag in modern football. Tell that to Macaffer on Friday night who shut out Richmonds number one playmaker. Also you made a point of saying Crowley is the best in the business - now go and look at his statistics from last year. His impact is basically shutting down the best midfielder in the opposition - that's pretty much it.

[nutbean 8,838]

He did that particular night. However we've seen him played in many roles before. He can go forward and kick goals. He's a decent contested mark. He has a few strings to his bow.

That's what I'm trying to stress here. A 'tagger' or 'run-with' player in a successful side needs to be able to offer more than just holding a player's jumper all game. And if we want to become a successful team, we're going to need to find a 'tagger' who can offer more than what McKenzie has to offer. (Executing the fundamental skills of the game for starters..)

Last year Macaffer kicked in 22 games - 7 goals.

You may want to stress that tagger needs to offer more than holding jumpers - you are right - they need to be able to completely shut down the opposition teams main gun - but for all your protesting - coaches continue to use taggers who do nothing more than shut down the opposition player.

McKenzie is limited and I have not suggested for a moment he is as good as Crowley - but the likes of Crowley and Macaffer have much better players around them and more structure to the team that helps them in what they do.

[nutbean 8,838]

And if we want to become a successful team, we're going to need to find a 'tagger' who can offer more than what McKenzie has to offer. (Executing the fundamental skills of the game for starters..)

I stressed and will restress that for last couple of years McKenzies disposal proved a liability.

It was no accident that it was better on Saturday. When your team mates spread and provide a clear option it is easier to feed out an effective handball - for the last two years we have seen him at the bottom of the pack - and looks up and sees all his team mates standing on his fingers.

As a general comment the one thing that Roos identified quickly ( besides getting more quality into the midfielder) is teaching the principle of not having all your midfielders go in for the contested ball. You need some midfielders to back your teammates to win the ball and peel off to receive. We seriously played school yard footy the last two years with all the mids chasing the ball and if one happened to get it the rest of his mates were standing shoulder to shoulder with him. I am seeing the beginnings of "Spread" from this team - makes it easier for the in and unders to give to someone.

Edited April 14, 2014 by nutbean

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Or I look forward to the day that we have a gun midfield and the likes of McKenzie improve under that sort of midfield ( and coaching) and becomes like Crowley or Ling. ( Ling for the first 3/4's of his career was nothing more than an averaged skilled tagger with exceptional stopping skills. He was fortunate to have a sensational midfield around him)

Exactly, I hear so often on here that x player would be a dud instead of a star if we drafted him, Wines is an example, because (pick any side) have a much better midfield than us so he has support around him. Well who's to say that Jordie won't be a better player if we have a better midfield, forward/back line, who's to say that his disposal won't improve if he has the players making position that he can kick to.

I don't think he's a star by any means but he is a much better player than given credit for; earlier someone said he gave away numerous free kicks for holding, well he had 3 against and 2 for so that's not too bad.

[nutbean 8,838]

Exactly, I hear so often on here that x player would be a dud instead of a star if we drafted him, Wines is an example, because (pick any side) have a much better midfield than us so he has support around him. Well who's to say that Jordie won't be a better player if we have a better midfield, forward/back line, who's to say that his disposal won't improve if he has the players making position that he can kick to.

I don't think he's a star by any means but he is a much better player than given credit for; earlier someone said he gave away numerous free kicks for holding, well he had 3 against and 2 for so that's not too bad.

Kyle Cheney is a perfect example - he is no world beater at Hawthorn either but looks better than he ever did for us because he has good people around him. It's amazing what confidence in everyone around you can do to your own confidence.

edit - it is no coincidence that Roos has repeated himself so often " the players are much better than they think they are"

Edited April 14, 2014 by nutbean

[manny100 1,554]

If you perform the role the coach gives you then you have done your job. Cheney could not get a game at then D's and gets games at the Hawks because he performs his role.

Perhaps he will struggle to get a game as we improve but at the moment at least he is a hard body with a few games under his belt - so I am prepared to cut him some slack. Every team has its McKenzie types playing somewhere, yes even the Hawks.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

You make some fair points.

One of which being that with a more supportive and functional midfield, his job would be made easier, and therefore he'd look 'better'.

However there is a difference in being made to look 'better' and actually becoming individually 'better'.

All of the names you've used, Ling, Macaffer and Crowley are better equipped for AFL football in my eyes. Of course you may argue that because they've played in successful sides with support and trust running throughout the team, they are made to 'look' better. Nonetheless I maintain that McKenzie is too one-dimensional, regardless of the support he'd have around him in a midfield studded with guns. I've seen him try and execute skills under no pressure. I've seen how little awareness he possesses.

I'm just of the view that he's an extremely limited player and as far as 'taggers' go, I'd rather find someone who can offer what McKenzie does and then some. And I believe in time we will.

[chook fowler 19,458]

Trengoves lack of pace may make the tagging role difficult. He must have a biomechanical problem to be sorted before anything else

[nutbean 8,838]

I'm just of the view that he's an extremely limited player and as far as 'taggers' go, I'd rather find someone who can offer what McKenzie does and then some. And I believe in time we will.

You could well be right.

What I see in McKenzie is an absolute thirst for the contest. You are 100% right that the one big knock on him is his disposal. In his position, ( like the Lings and Crowleys) - he only will get the pill 12-15 times a game - which he can do. The challenge for him is to get it to our advantage 12-15 times a game.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

You could well be right.

What I see in McKenzie is an absolute thirst for the contest. You are 100% right that the one big knock on him is his disposal. In his position, ( like the Lings and Crowleys) - he only will get the pill 12-15 times a game - which he can do. The challenge for him is to get it to our advantage 12-15 times a game.

Hypothetically, would you be opposed to Jones going head to head with Ablett on the weekend. Making him a little more accountable and knowing that you have a solid contributor when the balls in our hands?

I'd much rather that than have McKenzie going to Ablett knowing there will be a bunch of free kicks against coming our way and no contribution from him when on the attack.

I thought Jones was unbelievable on Murphy in the weekend. Absolutely smashed him.

[Slartibartfast 17,273]

The knock on McKenzie's disposal is overstated. He has a disposal efficiency of over 70% in 2013 where he played as a tagger and got the ball in pressure situations. It was higher than players such as McLean and Melksham who played in finals teams and is very similar to Montagna. His disposal efficiency on the weekend was over 90% and he was involved in scoring assists for our second and third goal. His kick to Frawley in the first was a ripper.

He's not fashionable, I get that, but he's effective in the job he does and he's clean with the ball. If the midfield goes past him then that's good for us but I think under Roos he'll have a role for a while yet.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,394]

The knock on McKenzie's disposal is overstated. He has a disposal efficiency of over 70% in 2013 where he played as a tagger and got the ball in pressure situations. It was higher than players such as McLean and Melksham who played in finals teams and is very similar to Montagna. His disposal efficiency on the weekend was over 90% and he was involved in scoring assists for our second and third goal. His kick to Frawley in the first was a ripper.

He's not fashionable, I get that, but he's effective in the job he does and he's clean with the ball. If the midfield goes past him then that's good for us but I think under Roos he'll have a role for a while yet.

Are you talking handballs travelling up to a metre or his pinpoint kicks?

[nutbean 8,838]

Hypothetically, would you be opposed to Jones going head to head with Ablett on the weekend. Making him a little more accountable and knowing that you have a solid contributor when the balls in our hands?

I'd much rather that than have McKenzie going to Ablett knowing there will be a bunch of free kicks against coming our way and no contribution from him when on the attack.

I thought Jones was unbelievable on Murphy in the weekend. Absolutely smashed him.

I don't have a problem with Jones on Ablett as he has shown that he can shutdown and be effective as well.

I have a preference for McKenzie shutting down Ablett and Jones running rampant though !

(Jones was great on Saturday - however as general rule you don't usually see what we saw on Saturday - that is a shutdown AND the tagger having such an impact - more credit to Jones - Crowley IMO doesn't rack up 28 possessions like Jones did and shut down his opponent to boot)