Jump to content

The Hawthorn List

Featured Replies

Posted

Some interesting (to me anyway) observations about Hawthorn's list:

The Imports

They have filled gaps probably better than any club. They have players wanting to go to the club which helps. But they have lured Gunston, Burgoyne, Lake, Gibson and Hale. All have been tremendous pick ups and held down critical positions.

Body shape

They have a lot that are in the same vein. Tall but not particularly big:

Shiels 183cm/84kgs, Suckling 187/86, Smith 188/82, Ellis 187/80. Gunston 193/84, Lewis 186/88, Savage 182/82, Bruest 184/84

These guys are strong and contest as well as anyone yet they aren't massively big. In fact I'd say they look skinny. We can seem to get the right combination of strength. speed and endurance.

Speed

Smith, Rioli, Bruest, Buddy give them great run. We are so far behind them in speed it ain't funny.

Kicking skills

Goes without saying but they are extraordinary with their accuracy - altho it helps greatly they run and spread incredibly well.

System

Their press and pressure were outstanding. They seem to have changed it slightly but everyone does their job and their captain is brilliant at organising everyone around him. In the last quarter he went back and even though Lake was having a blinder, Hodge marshalled the troops back there as well as anyone ever has.

The culture of the club is amazing, here is a club that played in 8 GFs straight yet found themselves on the poor end of a merger proposal, The way they have re-engineered the club is actually pretty incredible.

We have a long way to go.

BTW FWIW was speaking to a Swans premiership player yesterday about Roos and he said he was really good but he wont hang around if its not working - hence the 2y contract with a third year option.....

 

Some interesting (to me anyway) observations about Hawthorn's list:

The Imports

They have filled gaps probably better than any club. They have players wanting to go to the club which helps. But they have lured Gunston, Burgoyne, Lake, Gibson and Hale. All have been tremendous pick ups and held down critical positions.

Body shape

They have a lot that are in the same vein. Tall but not particularly big:

Shiels 183cm/84kgs, Suckling 187/86, Smith 188/82, Ellis 187/80. Gunston 193/84, Lewis 186/88, Savage 182/82, Bruest 184/84

These guys are strong and contest as well as anyone yet they aren't massively big. In fact I'd say they look skinny. We can seem to get the right combination of strength. speed and endurance.

Speed

Smith, Rioli, Bruest, Buddy give them great run. We are so far behind them in speed it ain't funny.

Kicking skills

Goes without saying but they are extraordinary with their accuracy - altho it helps greatly they run and spread incredibly well.

System

Their press and pressure were outstanding. They seem to have changed it slightly but everyone does their job and their captain is brilliant at organising everyone around him. In the last quarter he went back and even though Lake was having a blinder, Hodge marshalled the troops back there as well as anyone ever has.

The culture of the club is amazing, here is a club that played in 8 GFs straight yet found themselves on the poor end of a merger proposal, The way they have re-engineered the club is actually pretty incredible.

We have a long way to go.

BTW FWIW was speaking to a Swans premiership player yesterday about Roos and he said he was really good but he wont hang around if its not working - hence the 2y contract with a third year option.....

Let's not forget their outstanding drafting, coaching structures, excellent mid field and their off field business acumen.

I agree that the players you've mentioned are the shape of the game now....180 - 195cm, 80 - 90 kgs players that run like the wind, strong around the hips and elite kicking skills.

Yep, we have a bloody long way to go.

Thanks JM for that info

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

As with any recent premiers it is the overall team composition using the skill they possess and having strategies to maximise those skills that gives the basis of performance. Placement reaction and the ability to absorb pressure and still perform are then the elements that give an edge. Not everyone is a champion but they contribute to add to the champion input.

I hope Roos can instil the attributes of team work and team cohesiveness that great teams have. We then have the icing on the cake with some latent elite performers . By elite I mean those who perform above their normal on big occasions.

Something like that it is still a bit early on Sunday but good post by you

 

Two things I notice yesterday about the Hawks group.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

- Buddy was less than a match winner, I know he soaked up a defender all day, but IMO the Hawks can win another flag without him.

In fact they might be better served by having his salary space to recruit players.

Thanks JM for that info

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

As with any recent premiers it is the overall team composition using the skill they possess and having strategies to maximise those skills that gives the basis of performance. Placement reaction and the ability to absorb pressure and still perform are then the elements that give an edge. Not everyone is a champion but they contribute to add to the champion input.

I hope Roos can instil the attributes of team work and team cohesiveness that great teams have. We then have the icing on the cake with some latent elite performers . By elite I mean those who perform above their normal on big occasions.

Something like that it is still a bit early on Sunday but good post by you

depositive you need both.

No coach can turn plodders into grand finalists.

Did Malthouse turn Carlton into a G finalists over night?

Please don't raise Port they started with a decent player base.

Roos may be able to improve the our team marginally but without a big improvement in skill we will continue to bump along the bottom.


Two things I notice yesterday about the Hawks group.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

- Buddy was less than a match winner, I know he soaked up a defender all day, but IMO the Hawks can win another flag without him.

In fact they might be better served by having his salary space to recruit players.

Big call, od.

Buddy was sensational, team orientated and did some really tough things in close - putting his freakish ability aside, all our list can have a look at his game from a TEAM perspective and be prepared to become more focussed on the bigger picture.

I knew Freo were not going to win yesterday Ballantyne marked 40 metres out, had Walter FREE in the square for a good 10 seconds, saw him, but didn't pass it - all over.

Big call, od.

Buddy was sensational, team orientated and did some really tough things in close - putting his freakish ability aside, all our list can have a look at his game from a TEAM perspective and be prepared to become more focussed on the bigger picture.

I knew Freo were not going to win yesterday Ballantyne marked 40 metres out, had Walter FREE in the square for a good 10 seconds, saw him, but didn't pass it - all over.

Probably partly because I think he is off to GWS anyway jr.

Perhaps I am trying to justify his moving on but I don't think he is the reason the Hawks got there

and I reckon they will play in the GF 2014 without him.

depositive you need both.

No coach can turn plodders into grand finalists.

Did Malthouse turn Carlton into a G finalists over night?

Please don't raise Port they started with a decent player base.

Roos may be able to improve the our team marginally but without a big improvement in skill we will continue to bump along the bottom.

Ok can conceed that

I guess I think we have already got a greater deal of underutilised talent an am hoping the coach can rectify both those deficiencies through inspired training, match day and management strategies.

So yes can concentrate on skills of our decent player base (HAdnt thought of port)

 

Buddy finally attacked the contest and used his pace and size yesterday. But at the same time didn't have much impact on the game. He's out of form that's for sure.

I disagree about not needing a great ruckman. Hawthorn did an amazing job in the first quarter at tackling and stopping Freo winning clearances but as the game went on especially in the third and start of fourth quarter Sandilands was smashing them. Mundy and Fyfe were the dominant mids on the ground.

Unfortunately for Freo they just weren't switched on in the first quarter. They had some bad shots on goal and other chances were the final kick/handball forward went missing and with a 2-3 goal breeze at least were 2 goals down at quarter time. That's a huge deficit.

Back to the Hawthorn list I'm not that overawed with their trading in. They had a dominant young team in 2008 after drafting and developing guys like Lewis, Franklin, Rioli, Roughead, Birchall to go with Hodge, Mitchell and Sewell. That had them so well placed for years to come that they were incredibly popular for any recruits. Burgoyne obviously wanted to go to Hawthorn. Gibson wanted to play with Buddy as much as he wanted out of the Hawks. Hale saw what happened with Gibson and wanted it as well. And freaking Gunston, got home sick after 1 week at Adelaide but of course only wanted to return to the hawks. And Lake was an absolute steal but not many other clubs wanted/needed him. Pretty much when you assemble the young talent the hawks did then all the out of contract players see a great opportunity.

Their kicking skills are elite but Freo played into their hands at times when they rushed the counter attack into no one with an extra hawk defender. Hawthorns chip it around plan is actually a defensive plan as much as how to move the ball forward because it slows the game and lets defenders get in positions to minimise turnovers and damage from turnovers.

To Beat them we need a similiar attitude throughout the entire club.

I want to Beat Whorethorn in September on a regular basis.


Buddy finally attacked the contest and used his pace and size yesterday. But at the same time didn't have much impact on the game. He's out of form that's for sure.

I disagree about not needing a great ruckman. Hawthorn did an amazing job in the first quarter at tackling and stopping Freo winning clearances but as the game went on especially in the third and start of fourth quarter Sandilands was smashing them. Mundy and Fyfe were the dominant mids on the ground.

Unfortunately for Freo they just weren't switched on in the first quarter. They had some bad shots on goal and other chances were the final kick/handball forward went missing and with a 2-3 goal breeze at least were 2 goals down at quarter time. That's a huge deficit.

Back to the Hawthorn list I'm not that overawed with their trading in. They had a dominant young team in 2008 after drafting and developing guys like Lewis, Franklin, Rioli, Roughead, Birchall to go with Hodge, Mitchell and Sewell. That had them so well placed for years to come that they were incredibly popular for any recruits. Burgoyne obviously wanted to go to Hawthorn. Gibson wanted to play with Buddy as much as he wanted out of the Hawks. Hale saw what happened with Gibson and wanted it as well. And freaking Gunston, got home sick after 1 week at Adelaide but of course only wanted to return to the hawks. And Lake was an absolute steal but not many other clubs wanted/needed him. Pretty much when you assemble the young talent the hawks did then all the out of contract players see a great opportunity.

Disagree. The talented list that snared a flag in 2008 came up short in 2009 and 2010 and lacked the guns to be the best.

The Hawks had carefully plotted the improvement of their list by bringing in outside talent. They have add the right players at the right time to get them across the line. And each player they have drafted from other clubs has been better at Hawthorn than they were at the old clubs. They have traded brilliantly and its was three of the players they brought in Lake, Gunston and Hale that were critical in getting them that flag. Outstanding drafting.

Thanks JM for that info

It confirms my ill informed but persistent expression that it aint the players but the coaching that has been the most significant issue for many years at our club

As with any recent premiers it is the overall team composition using the skill they possess and having strategies to maximise those skills that gives the basis of performance. Placement reaction and the ability to absorb pressure and still perform are then the elements that give an edge. Not everyone is a champion but they contribute to add to the champion input.

I hope Roos can instil the attributes of team work and team cohesiveness that great teams have. We then have the icing on the cake with some latent elite performers . By elite I mean those who perform above their normal on big occasions.

Something like that it is still a bit early on Sunday but good post by you

coaching you haven't looked back far enough.. its the decision making processes over generations that have hampered us. from the Board & then down.

really weak decisions since the early 90's has killed of all the gains off the 80's hard work.

we've just not been a Footy club

we've been an organisation to visit.

.... finally the Afl had to step in, before there was a EGM & Riot, before final oblivion.

we just haven't had footy smart people at the top since the late 80's.

Some interesting (to me anyway) observations about Hawthorn's list:

Body shape

They have a lot that are in the same vein. Tall but not particularly big:

Shiels 183cm/84kgs, Suckling 187/86, Smith 188/82, Ellis 187/80. Gunston 193/84, Lewis 186/88, Savage 182/82, Bruest 184/84

These guys are strong and contest as well as anyone yet they aren't massively big. In fact I'd say they look skinny. We can seem to get the right combination of strength. speed and endurance.

Personally I think part of this is probably to do with the make of their jumper - the vertical stripes can make the players look leaner.

But going by KG a few of them, particularly Gunston, are lighter than usual.

Personally I think part of this is probably to do with the make of their jumper - the vertical stripes can make the players look leaner.

But going by KG a few of them, particularly Gunston, are lighter than usual.

they may already be building in more endurance at the expence of power, in prep for next year & lesser rotations?

agility was a factor yesterday

Hawthorn did make a few mistakes along the way but for the most part, the drafting and trading have been exemplary.

I suppose it started when they traded Trent Croad, once a problem child for them, to Fremantle and got Luke Hodge. His two premierships now eclipse the other two in the trio of wunderkinder that year, the others being Luke Ball and Chris Judd who have one flag each. I also put Hodge down as the best leader among that group. They also picked up Luke McPharlin in that time who they traded to Freo to get Croad back when he matured and became a contributor to their 2008 flag.

The next great acquisition was Clarkson himself and, after losing just enough games (strange how that happened so often), they managed to hit the jackpot in the 2004 national draft with Roughead, Franklin and Lewis (the latter a nice trade into pick 7 that got them three picks in the top 10).

Then followed a mixture of good drafting (Birchall, Rioli) and trading (Dew, Guerra) despite some blemishes (Ellis, Thorpe, Dowler).

After winning the flag in 2008 their trading has been impeccable as documented by others above but let's not forget that the drafted brilliantly as well given the lack of high draft picks. Isaac Smith was a late first rounder (at 19 after some genius took Lucas Cook at 12), Paul Puopolo (66), Stratton (46), Duryea (69), Suckling (rookie), Shiels (34), Savage (75) ... I could go on but it might make you ill ...


Disagree. The talented list that snared a flag in 2008 came up short in 2009 and 2010 and lacked the guns to be the best.

The Hawks had carefully plotted the improvement of their list by bringing in outside talent. They have add the right players at the right time to get them across the line. And each player they have drafted from other clubs has been better at Hawthorn than they were at the old clubs. They have traded brilliantly and its was three of the players they brought in Lake, Gunston and Hale that were critical in getting them that flag. Outstanding drafting.

Yeah but they had all the youngsters that made them such a massive attraction. No different to Collingwood bringing in Jolly and Tarrant.

They certainly got their picks right in guys like Hale and Lake. They paid for them and took them in and even improved their form. But Gunston was a massive freebie just like the cats getting Caddy last year. Both teams underpaid for them as well but as is the nature of trade week the original club (ie Adelaide) had to take the offer on the table or lose Gunston for nothing.

Hawthorn did make a few mistakes along the way but for the most part, the drafting and trading have been exemplary.

I suppose it started when they traded Trent Croad, once a problem child for them, to Fremantle and got Luke Hodge. His two premierships now eclipse the other two in the trio of wunderkinder that year, the others being Luke Ball and Chris Judd who have one flag each. I also put Hodge down as the best leader among that group. They also picked up Luke McPharlin in that time who they traded to Freo to get Croad back when he matured and became a contributor to their 2008 flag.

That's not right. It was McPharlin and Croad for pick 1 (hodge), pick 20 (didn't make) and pick 30 something (Sam Mitchell).

It shows that there list was actually ok at the time but they couldn't hold McPharlin and made a big call on Croad and in turn got 2 champions who were the back bone of the 2008 flag. They also went down hill for a while in 2004 as you mentioned. Which coincided with Mitchell and Hodge turning into guns just after that. Very good timing! I'm not sure what the Croad trade back was for but it was much cheaper than what he was sent off at.

McPharlin and Croad deal for Freo wasn't too bad. It's just they didn't have the culture and professionalism at the time to turn those guys into the book end talls that they could've been together. Instead Croad didn't work out but McPharlin certainly did. If Freo had their time again they would've picked Hodge and traded pick 20 and 30 whatever for just McPharlin. Swapping Hodge to the other team might have been enough to make the difference yesterday I'm pretty sure.

coaching you haven't looked back far enough.. its the decision making processes over generations that have hampered us. from the Board & then down.

really weak decisions since the early 90's has killed of all the gains off the 80's hard work.

we've just not been a Footy club

we've been an organisation to visit.

.... finally the Afl had to step in, before there was a EGM & Riot, before final oblivion.

we just haven't had footy smart people at the top since the late 80's.

Some disrespect towards the Rev Neale Danniher here DL.

you didn't mention the Northern Stand.

Amazing.

Every time I see Gunston playing that decisively effective third tall role, I am reminded of Cameron Bruce, maybe just because of the vague resemblance. But what I can't shake is that Bruce was about the same build as Gunston, but Gunston somehow seems to be a whole lot firmer. All lean muscle.

'Lean muscle' should be plastered on the inside of the eyelids of every conditioning and fitness coach in the AFL. Possibly alongside 'strong hips'.

One thing I think Hawthorn did well was not get sucked into the 'traditional' concepts of what a footballer should be like. They have a lot of 'short' guys (Puopolo, Osborne, Rioli, Hill and Mitchell all 180cm or less) and ever their inside high-collision role-players tend to be quite balanced in body shape.

Come to think of it, Fremantle are a team with plenty of lean players, as well. Not a single meatwad on their list.I'm pretty sure footywire had a typo for the only player they have listed as being significantly 'over' on the weight-to-height ratio - Danyle Pearce at 182cm and 89kg is about Moloney proportions on those numbers!

Two things I notice yesterday about the Hawks group.

- You don't need a great Ruckman to win a GF .

- Buddy was less than a match winner, I know he soaked up a defender all day, but IMO the Hawks can win another flag without him.

In fact they might be better served by having his salary space to recruit players.

Don't underestimate the benefit of having an X-factor in your team. You say Buddy soaked up a defender: would the players they get in if they lose Buddy dictate similarly aggressive defense from the opposition?

Yeah, they can win a flag, but they're a better system with him.


The Hawks were able to trade pick 10 for Croad to come back, cleverly trading out of the epically weak 2003 afl draft, notable for MFC picking up Sylvia and McLean.

Pick 10 netted Riley Dunn for Freo, who was a consummate failure.

Apart from picking up McPharlin, Freo were massive losers in the Croad Trade Chronicles.

Don't underestimate the benefit of having an X-factor in your team. You say Buddy soaked up a defender: would the players they get in if they lose Buddy dictate similarly aggressive defense from the opposition?

Yeah, they can win a flag, but they're a better system with him.

That can't be said until we see what they play like for an extended period of time without him.

I think they could be better without him, but we'll have to wait and see.

That's not right. It was McPharlin and Croad for pick 1 (hodge), pick 20 (didn't make) and pick 30 something (Sam Mitchell).

Thanks for the correction. I was close but no ceegar :lol:

However, it does outline the clever approach and good fortune the club experienced and shows the value of having good people in charge of recruiting.

On Sam Mitchell, I remember him playing against Sandringham as a Box Hill top up player after he missed out on being drafted. I watched the game near his family on the grassy knoll at TBO and though Mitchell got a lot of the footy, he appeared slow and loped around the ground. The popular wisdom among the cognoscenti standing near me was that he would never make it. At the end of that year, he won the Liston Trophy and was drafted by Hawthorn. The rest, as they say, is geography.

 

Thanks for the correction. I was close but no ceegar :lol:

However, it does outline the clever approach and good fortune the club experienced and shows the value of having good people in charge of recruiting.

On Sam Mitchell, I remember him playing against Sandringham as a Box Hill top up player after he missed out on being drafted. I watched the game near his family on the grassy knoll at TBO and though Mitchell got a lot of the footy, he appeared slow and loped around the ground. The popular wisdom among the cognoscenti standing near me was that he would never make it. At the end of that year, he won the Liston Trophy and was drafted by Hawthorn. The rest, as they say, is geography.

Yep - heard the same thing. A school footy coach I worked with said....'Nup, won't make it. Too slow.'

  • Author

Personally I think part of this is probably to do with the make of their jumper - the vertical stripes can make the players look leaner.

But going by KG a few of them, particularly Gunston, are lighter than usual.

You could be right about the vertical stripes! Lets look at ours that are of similar build.

Trengove 185/85

Sylvia 186/87

McKenzie 186/82

Strauss 185/85

Grimes 187/85

Bail 183/82

Terlich 186/85

They all look a bit stockier than their Hawk counterparts..

Bail is probably the closest ti the Hawk guys. Good endurance. pretty quick. Just can't kick.

Strauss is the one that should be tearing it up for us by now. And I hope Grimes is having kicking lessons over summer.

And the other thing is the number of left footers. The Dorks have so many of them....


Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Featured Content

  • PREVIEW: Essendon

    As the focus of the AFL moves exclusively to South Australia for Gather Round, the question is raised as to what are we going to get from the  Melbourne Football Club this weekend? Will it be a repeat of the slop fest of the last three weeks that have seen the team score a measly 174 points and concede 310 or will a return to the City of Churches and the scene where they performed at their best in 2024 act as a wakeup call and bring them out of their early season reverie?  Or will the sleepy Dees treat their fans to a reenactment of their lazy effort from the first Gather Round of two years ago when they allowed the Bombers to trample all over them on a soggy and wet Adelaide Oval? The two examples from above tell us how fickle form can be in football. Last year, a committed group of players turned up in Adelaide with a businesslike mindset. They had a plan, went in confidently and hard for the football and kicked winning scores against both home teams in a difficult environment for visitors. And they repeated that sort of effort later in the season when they played Essendon at the MCG.

      • Thanks
      • Like
    • 0 replies
    Demonland
  • PREGAME: Essendon

    Facing the very real and daunting prospect of starting the season with five straight losses, the Demons head to South Australia for the annual Gather Round, where they’ll take on the Bombers in search of their first win of the year. Who comes in, and who comes out?

      • Thanks
    • 434 replies
    Demonland
  • NON-MFC: Round 05

    Gather Round is here, kicking off with a Thursday night blockbuster as Adelaide faces Geelong. The Crows will be out for redemption after a controversial loss last week. Saturday starts with the Magpies taking on the Swans. Collingwood will be eager to cement their spot in the top eight, while Sydney is hot on their heels. In the Barossa Valley, two rising sides go head-to-head in a fascinating battle to prove they're the real deal. Later, Carlton and West Coast face off at Adelaide Oval, both desperate to notch their first win of the season. The action then shifts to Norwood, where the undefeated Lions will aim to keep their streak alive against the Bulldogs. Sunday’s games begin in the Barossa with Richmond up against Fremantle. In Norwood, the Saints will be looking to take a scalp when they come up against the Giants. The round concludes with a fiery rematch of last year's semi-final, as the Hawks seek revenge for their narrow loss to Port Adelaide. Who are you tipping this week and what are the best results for the Demons besides us winning?

      • Thanks
    • 115 replies
    Demonland
  • CASEY: Geelong

    There was a time in the second quarter of the game at the Cattery on Friday afternoon when the Casey Demons threatened to take the game apart against the Cats. The Demons had been well on top early but were struggling to convert their ascendancy over the ground until Tom Fullarton’s burst of three goals in the space of eight minutes on the way to a five goal haul and his best game for the club since arriving from Brisbane at the end of 2023. He was leading, marking and otherwise giving his opponents a merry dance as Casey grabbed a three goal lead in the blink of an eye. Fullarton has now kicked ten goals in Casey’s three matches and, with Melbourne’s forward conversion woes, he is definitely in with a chance to get his first game with the club in next week’s Gather Round in Adelaide. Despite the tall forward’s efforts - he finished with 19 disposals and eight marks and had four hit outs as back up to Will Verrall in the second half - it wasn’t enough as Geelong reigned in the lead through persistent attacks and eventually clawed their way to the lead early in the last and held it till they achieved the end aim of victory.

      • Like
    • 0 replies
    Demonland
  • REPORT: Geelong

    I was disappointed to hear Goody say at his post match presser after the team’s 39 point defeat against Geelong that "we're getting high quality entry, just poor execution" because Melbourne’s problems extend far beyond that after its 0 - 4 start to the 2025 football season. There are clearly problems with poor execution, some of which were evident well before the current season and were in play when the Demons met the Cats in early May last year and beat them in a near top-of-the-table clash that saw both sides sitting comfortably in the top four after round eight. Since that game, the Demons’ performances have been positively Third World with only five wins in 19 games with a no longer majestic midfield and a dysfunctional forward line that has become too easy for opposing coaches to counter. This is an area of their game that is currently being played out as if they were all completely panic-stricken.

      • Thanks
      • Like
    • 0 replies
    Demonland
  • NON-MFC: Round 04

    Round 4 kicks off with a blockbuster on Thursday night as traditional rivals Collingwood and Carlton clash at the MCG, with the Magpies looking to assert themselves as early-season contenders and the Blues seeking their first win of the season. Saturday opens with Gold Coast hosting Adelaide, a key test for the Suns as they aim to back up their big win last week, while the Crows will be looking to keep their perfect record intact. Reigning wooden spooners Richmond have the daunting task of facing reigning premiers Brisbane at the ‘G and the Lions will be eager to reaffirm their premiership credentials after a patchy start. Saturday night sees North Melbourne take on Sydney at Marvel Stadium, with the Swans looking to build on their first win of the season last week against a rebuilding Roos outfit. Sunday’s action begins with GWS hosting West Coast at ENGIE Stadium, a game that could get ugly very early for the visitors. Port Adelaide vs St Kilda at Adelaide Oval looms as a interesting clash, with both clubs form being very hard to read. The round wraps up with Fremantle taking on the Western Bulldogs at Optus Stadium in what could be a fierce contest between two sides with top-eight ambitions. Who are you tipping this week and what are the best results for the Demons besides us winning?

      • Thanks
    • 273 replies
    Demonland