The AFL doesn't really care about MFC winning flags, they'd like us to have some chance to do so, but that's not the key issue - they really don't want us to be a s horrible as we have been. They'd be fine with us mid-table and hopeful of better. Look at NMFC, they're on the up on the field. The Saints and Dogs nearly won flags.

How many games do you think we'll win next year and where will we finish? I reckon there's a very good chance we'll be in the bottom 4 and a fair chance we'll win less than 5 and be in the bottom 2 - if so there'll be another opportunity to apply for a PP. If not - if we're out of the bottom 4 then it's probably not required.

This is it in a nutshell.

Its all very well for some to adopt the " We didnt deserve a PP, we oughtnt need a PP, Im glad we didnt get a PP" and so on and so on type stances

This all smacks of faux martyrdom and little appreciation of the reality that as some suggest, all well and good to suggest we learn to fish , but where and with what ?

The PP is a mechanism for equalisation. Many things are contributory to how various teams benefit through out the season. we seem to get reamed at just about every occasion.

For all the mouthing that Vlad Inc does about creating a fairer and more equitable league the actual actionings go in the totally opposite direction..

Whilst I agree we move on , for there is no other recourse anyway, I fail to understand all this bravado about time we need to stop leaning on picks and stand on our feet etc. If your leg is broken they splint or cast it. They support it til you CAN stand on your leg and work to rehabilitate it strength. Don't and you'll invariably result in a gummy leg and a person hobbling with a limp. That it who we are, the gimpy limpy club.

The AFL throwing money at us is like plssing into a fire. It doesnt go to the root cause of the problem, that being its a very unequal league.

This is where we need to direct efforts in future, at a club level as a member of this league ( let alone creator of it ) that we must nag, and lobby for anything and everything. We must object to anything anyone else gets and become strong and beligerent to anyone else's requests. The word is RUTHLESS.

The first opportunity to be such is to raid and plunder anything that is or isnt nailed down. We rifle Sydney's young academy talent. we send them (SMFC) a thankyou, your choice as to how many fingers. When Colless or any other buffon gets stroppy, we get gnarly. We go on the front foot and smack them down. We remind anyone who listens as to the benefits these clubs get.

time to stop being nice, time to kick these other clubs in the nuts and then kick them again for good measure and remind them we are but their creation. They want us tough and self reliant, no problem. They need not expect courtesy and kowtowing anymore then.

Next stop Messendon.. Theyre down, lets foster an environment for WADA to [censored] them relentlessly. I really dont care if a player of ours is collateral.We need to be tougher than that. If we always look to the lowest common denominator we will be rewarded with it..

This club is supposedly connected to the big end of town. Time to throw some weight around.

We've be the schoolyard bullies' kicking dog for far to long. Theres only ONE way to deal with Bullies and thats to give them the mightiest whack theyve ever enjoyed ( sic) and then whisper in their ear as they lay on the ground " if you get up....the next will be twice ans painful"

Bugger queensbury rules and gentlemanly etiquette its time to get nasty with a few of these who would gladly see us hit by a truck once a week.

We didnt get a pick, then no one ever does again. Next club to ask, kick them to the kerb with a less than gentle reminder; "remember us, remember how you voted"

We deserved a PP as it was the most efficient path to this supposed new equality but we know thats a myth,an illusion created by the strong to placate the weak.

Time to take this game back, its ours, lets remind all of that

Cry me a f'ing river. Look at our early picks from recent years - Sylvia, McLean, Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove, Toumpas - do you really think adding another one of these types of players to our club is really going to fix all our problems? This is what is meant when we talk about MFC having a "saviour" mentality. Getting a PP may have assisted us in some way but on the other hand it may not have - it is not a silver bullet that people on here are indicating it is given the level of whinging going on.

Why can a club like Sydney take other teams rejects and borderline players and turn them into best 22 premiership players? Answer that and you'll have your answer as to how we can help turn this ship around. Look at what many of the Geelong players have said over recent years - it doesn't matter who you recruit if you don't have the right environment to develop the players once they get to the club. Work on fixing the environment or culture first (something through Jackson and Roos we are doing) and the rest will take care of itself.

A player like Blease (or Sylvia) could be a very very good player under the environment, under the wrong one he will be a borderline best 22, in and out of the VFL.

Dr G I dont mean adding another one of "those " types at all. They demonstrate that an early pick guarantees nothing if used by the wrong people.

Sylvia is hardly a success. 10 odd years and we're effectively still waiting. Mclean , nothing special, had his moments , had as many dud days. Morton, afraid of his own shadow, Trengove, currently a pale imitation of the player we thought wed get. Toumpas, still in the garage being worked on despite being touted as ready to roll. Watts, last seen looking for a ticker. TS...no need to say anything.

This only goes to show that we've been comprehensively shlt on so many fronts. But thats your reasoning for us NOT to get another pick ? its actually irrelevant to the situation ( those they are in themselves causal to it ) .

What we really have is a that was then this is now situation. We know we stuffed up. Weve taken steps ( or rather had some built for us ) so we can change and do better with whatever we get, but even this changes nothing of the predicament we are in right NOW. A PP was about empowering the NOW, so we can be more competitive tomorrow.

All that you say about fixing environments is right but that wont impact for years really. We need a shot in the arm NOW. Not as a reward for systematic failure but simply acknowledging that thats where we are atm.

Teams like Sydney and Geelong have certainly done better but they also benefited from an uneven dispersal of assets as well as benefiitng from cheap f/s and pp's.

What they did with them only goes to their culture..not validation of the pick itself.

Do you penalise someone whos hungry simply because they manage to spill half the previous bowls given them ? They're still hungry and the solution is to give them something to eat, or they starve. How haughtilly self righteous of some to deny that meal.

What we really have is a that was then this is now situation. We know we stuffed up. Weve taken steps ( or rather had some built for us ) so we can change and do better with whatever we get, but even this changes nothing of the predicament we are in right NOW. A PP was about empowering the NOW, so we can be more competitive tomorrow.

All that you say about fixing environments is right but that wont impact for years really. We need a shot in the arm NOW. Not as a reward for systematic failure but simply acknowledging that thats where we are atm.

That's my point - getting a PP doesn't guarantee anything and doesn't automatically follow that we'll be better/more competitive tomorrow.

Regardless of which course we take the impact is years away. If we got a PP do you think we'll all of a sudden be premiership or even finalist contenders next year? Nothing worth doing comes easy, it takes hard work and time.

Getting a PP meant we had that AND pick 2...So many more options . Now we have just 2. Vastly different in terms of what we can put in the xmas stocking.

They fine us then give the money back with interest? I'm not complaining but it all sounds a bit odd to me.

That's my point - getting a PP doesn't guarantee anything and doesn't automatically follow that we'll be better/more competitive tomorrow.

Regardless of which course we take the impact is years away. If we got a PP do you think we'll all of a sudden be premiership or even finalist contenders next year? Nothing worth doing comes easy, it takes hard work and time.

I don't recall anyone saying getting a PP guarantees anything. (And no one has suggested a PP would put us in the finals FCS.) The point BBy and others have made is that it would have helped in building the missing mid-field through trades etc. I don't believe there is a trace of 'all we need is a PP' within the club anymore, so there is no reason to think having a PP is 'culturally' dangerous.

It's all very well saying if we are hopeless next year then we'll get a PP and if we are not then we won't need one. Just think hard about the first part of that. it may just be too late if we are this hopeless again in 2014.

On the other hand, a PP would have helped prevent us being hopeless in 2014. Note the word 'helped' qualifying 'prevent', and the absence of the word 'guaranteed'.

I don't recall anyone saying getting a PP guarantees anything. (And no one has suggested a PP would put us in the finals FCS.) The point BBy and others have made is that it would have helped in building the missing mid-field through trades etc. I don't believe there is a trace of 'all we need is a PP' within the club anymore, so there is no reason to think having a PP is 'culturally' dangerous.

It's all very well saying if we are hopeless next year then we'll get a PP and if we are not then we won't need one. Just think hard about the first part of that. it may just be too late if we are this hopeless again in 2014.

On the other hand, a PP would have helped prevent us being hopeless in 2014. Note the word 'helped' qualifying 'prevent', and the absence of the word 'guaranteed'.

Correct. Our capacity to improve our midfield straight up by using an extra high pick has been drastically curtailed. Had we been given a PP we could have used the situation to offer one high pick as a trade and kept the other to pick one of the best youngsters. We can only do one or the other now unless we trade out.

One solution will be to get more heavily involved in the free trade bargaining but that takes $.

The AFL doesn't really care about MFC winning flags, they'd like us to have some chance to do so, but that's not the key issue - they really don't want us to be a s horrible as we have been. They'd be fine with us mid-table and hopeful of better. Look at NMFC, they're on the up on the field. The Saints and Dogs nearly won flags.

How many games do you think we'll win next year and where will we finish? I reckon there's a very good chance we'll be in the bottom 4 and a fair chance we'll win less than 5 and be in the bottom 2 - if so there'll be another opportunity to apply for a PP. If not - if we're out of the bottom 4 then it's probably not required.

If we win 5 games or less next year and show no improvement, then a PP next year may be irrelevant and far too late.

Knife edge.

Cry me a f'ing river. Look at our early picks from recent years - Sylvia, McLean, Morton, Watts, Scully, Trengove, Toumpas - do you really think adding another one of these types of players to our club is really going to fix all our problems? This is what is meant when we talk about MFC having a "saviour" mentality. Getting a PP may have assisted us in some way but on the other hand it may not have - it is not a silver bullet that people on here are indicating it is given the level of whinging going on.

Why can a club like Sydney take other teams rejects and borderline players and turn them into best 22 premiership players? Answer that and you'll have your answer as to how we can help turn this ship around. Look at what many of the Geelong players have said over recent years - it doesn't matter who you recruit if you don't have the right environment to develop the players once they get to the club. Work on fixing the environment or culture first (something through Jackson and Roos we are doing) and the rest will take care of itself.

A player like Blease (or Sylvia) could be a very very good player under the environment, under the wrong one he will be a borderline best 22, in and out of the VFL.

exactly right

as I said recently, we have had over 40 blokes go through the list in the last 7 years and have not produced a single star player (apologies Clark, Jones, Frawley etc)

it is obviously a lot more to do with development than recruiting

If we win 5 games or less next year and show no improvement, then a PP next year may be irrelevant and far too late.

Knife edge.

as if

If we win 5 games or less next year and show no improvement, then a PP next year may be irrelevant and far too late.

Knife edge.

Roos is still coach in 2015.

We are not about go out of existence next year because we don't win 6 games...

t's all very well saying if we are hopeless next year then we'll get a PP and if we are not then we won't need one. Just think hard about the first part of that. it may just be too late if we are this hopeless again in 2014.

This is honest to god getting embarrassing. Victim mentality vs reality indeed. I know which one is prevalent on here, and it isn't the latter.

You're saying that next season could spell the end of the club, and a PP could mean the difference in that sudden required improvement. So essentially, a PP could save the club. What garbage.

If we are not a measurably improved team by this time next year I'll be shocked. But if we aren't, the club will still be around, and the PP will be revisited. Until then, get over it.

Roos is still coach in 2015.

We are not about go out of existence next year because we don't win 6 games...

If we are not good enough to hold our own against the expansion clubs or win a few against the other bottom clubs the it won't matter who coaches us; supporters will dessert in droves.

I hope we can win about 8 games next year (would prefer more) so we have a bit of momentum going in to 2015 and at least show the supporters we are on the right track.

Just as well the decision was finalised today prior to the Brownlow count when MFC will no doubt set a record for the lowest number of club votes ever recorded since 1924. That wouldn't be a good stat for AD to put up for PP discussion.

I wish to apologise for my ridiculous prediction yesterday. It turns out we only had the lowest number of club votes since 1931! It sums up exactly where our list is at in my opinion but Vlad is pinning a lot of hope on a big kid who hasn't played a senior game yet, a father son and Jimmy T to drag us out of the deepest morass any side has been in since 1931 for God sake.

This is honest to god getting embarrassing. Victim mentality vs reality indeed. I know which one is prevalent on here, and it isn't the latter.

You're saying that next season could spell the end of the club, and a PP could mean the difference in that sudden required improvement. So essentially, a PP could save the club. What garbage.

If we are not a measurably improved team by this time next year I'll be shocked. But if we aren't, the club will still be around, and the PP will be revisited. Until then, get over it.

Hard work throughout all departments,PULLING IN THE SAME DIRECTION can lift this team up the ladder way quicker than the Grim Reapers in this thread are talking.

FFS Schwab is gone...The players are being treated with Respect.

1 PP is not the difference between the club prospering or folding

Jesus there are some wimps on here.

Feed yourselves....Don't wait to be fed.

This is honest to god getting embarrassing. Victim mentality vs reality indeed. I know which one is prevalent on here, and it isn't the latter.

You're saying that next season could spell the end of the club, and a PP could mean the difference in that sudden required improvement. So essentially, a PP could save the club. What garbage.

If we are not a measurably improved team by this time next year I'll be shocked. But if we aren't, the club will still be around, and the PP will be revisited. Until then, get over it.

quite frankly thats an extrapolation way too far. I , nor i expect Sue or many others have said the end is nigh should we not have received the PP.

All we are saying ....is.... ( sorry ...had a John Lennon moment there lol ) .....is we have been deprived of a certain form of natural justice as bias and prejudice have colluded to deny us what any other team in this position would have received ...a PP. All we are saying, is a job at hand has become a lot harder than it ought to have been. that is. the rebuild of a Midfield which is the litmus of competitiveness.

The ability to affect real and meaningful change has been somewhat hamstrung. No ones saying we will fold, thats nonsense. A jobat hand just became harder than it ought to be thanks in no small way to the hypocritical stance of 17 others clubs and a nutless AFL

I don't recall anyone saying getting a PP guarantees anything. (And no one has suggested a PP would put us in the finals FCS.) The point BBy and others have made is that it would have helped in building the missing mid-field through trades etc. I don't believe there is a trace of 'all we need is a PP' within the club anymore, so there is no reason to think having a PP is 'culturally' dangerous.

It's all very well saying if we are hopeless next year then we'll get a PP and if we are not then we won't need one. Just think hard about the first part of that. it may just be too late if we are this hopeless again in 2014.

On the other hand, a PP would have helped prevent us being hopeless in 2014. Note the word 'helped' qualifying 'prevent', and the absence of the word 'guaranteed'.

Correct. Our capacity to improve our midfield straight up by using an extra high pick has been drastically curtailed. Had we been given a PP we could have used the situation to offer one high pick as a trade and kept the other to pick one of the best youngsters. We can only do one or the other now unless we trade out.

One solution will be to get more heavily involved in the free trade bargaining but that takes $.

Of course a PP would help, any club could make that argument. What I am fed up with is the sense of entitlement that we "deserve" and are doomed without it. It would have been nice but not required for us to be competitive again, the decisions made so lets get on with the job of supporting Roos, Jackson, the new board members, FD and players instead of whinging about the unfairness of it all and how we have no hope. Regardless of whether that is the intent that is how it comes across.

There are genuine grievances to take aim at such as the FIXture, no point wasting time on the peripherals.

quite frankly thats an extrapolation way too far. I , nor i expect Sue or many others have said the end is nigh should we not have received the PP.

All we are saying ....is.... ( sorry ...had a John Lennon moment there lol ) .....is we have been deprived of a certain form of natural justice as bias and prejudice have colluded to deny us what any other team in this position would have received ...a PP. All we are saying, is a job at hand has become a lot harder than it ought to have been. that is. the rebuild of a Midfield which is the litmus of competitiveness.

The ability to affect real and meaningful change has been somewhat hamstrung. No ones saying we will fold, thats nonsense. A jobat hand just became harder than it ought to be thanks in no small way to the hypocritical stance of 17 others clubs and a nutless AFL

As some have said we could have traded the PP for a top line mid; now that would help.

Of course a PP would help, any club could make that argument. What I am fed up with is the sense of entitlement that we "deserve" and are doomed without it. It would have been nice but not required for us to be competitive again, the decisions made so lets get on with the job of supporting Roos, Jackson, the new board members, FD and players instead of whinging about the unfairness of it all and how we have no hope. Regardless of whether that is the intent that is how it comes across.

There are genuine grievances to take aim at such as the FIXture, no point wasting time on the peripherals.

They're all tied together Dr., we play poorly we get shafted in the FIXture, we have to force the AFL to give us a ether deal and that will only be done by better performance on field.

Top clubs dine out at the top end of town we go to Centrelnk and eat at Maccas.

Gonzo...we're not doomed, these are YOUR ideaspushed onto an otherwise reasonable argument.

No PP is hypocritical generally and specifically retardant.

thats all

The only year we geniunely deserved an extra pick was after Broady was taken by the Tsunami.

Gonzo...we're not doomed, these are YOUR ideaspushed onto an otherwise reasonable argument.

No PP is hypocritical generally and specifically retardant.

thats all

It's all very well saying if we are hopeless next year then we'll get a PP and if we are not then we won't need one. Just think hard about the first part of that. it may just be too late if we are this hopeless again in 2014.

If we win 5 games or less next year and show no improvement, then a PP next year may be irrelevant and far too late.

Knife edge.

Just two examples, and I don't mean to pick on you guys but reading through the threads the past few days the sense I get is one of impending doom if we didn't get the PP.

Robbie, the Bulldogs, Saints, North etc are in a similar position to us yet they haven't been anchored to the bottom of the ladder for 7 years at any time during the national era. North hasn't had any top 5 picks from memory and the Dogs and Saints have performed very well recently with multiple top 4 finishes and were often in prime time slots. Being a smaller or poorer club doesn't preclude you from competng on-field and subsequently demanding better/fairer fixtures.

fmd Gonzo...theres no DOOM... just a setback capisce

Just two examples, and I don't mean to pick on you guys but reading through the threads the past few days the sense I get is one of impending doom if we didn't get the PP.

Robbie, the Bulldogs, Saints, North etc are in a similar position to us yet they haven't been anchored to the bottom of the ladder for 7 years at any time during the national era. North hasn't had any top 5 picks from memory and the Dogs and Saints have performed very well recently with multiple top 4 finishes and were often in prime time slots. Being a smaller or poorer club doesn't preclude you from competng on-field and subsequently demanding better/fairer fixtures.

We're like the once, grand old department store that tried to hang on to its past glory, whereas North have turned themselves in to a bunnings, not great to look at but steady business and much more practical.

The bulldogs are in strife if they stay too long down the bottom and the Saints have a fickle crowd that will drop off if they don't start to climb back up to the top.

Our support is hanging by a thread, that being Paul Roos and if he can't dig us out of a hole then where do we go from there?

He may be a good coach and all that that goes with it, but not even he can get us off the ground without all the help he can get.

quite frankly thats an extrapolation way too far. I , nor i expect Sue or many others have said the end is nigh should we not have received the PP.

This seems a pretty clear cut proclamation to me of the dire consequences in 2014, noting all the other changes that have happened with coaching and administration:

it may just be too late if we are this hopeless again in 2014.

This is another example of the sky is falling attitude. People have been worked up into such a frenzy that the awarding of a PP has been twisted into an issue of far greater significance than it ever ought to have been.

All we are saying ....is.... ( sorry ...had a John Lennon moment there lol ) .....is we have been deprived of a certain form of natural justice as bias and prejudice have colluded to deny us what any other team in this position would have received ...a PP.

And I do not agree with that assertion. It is more of the same victim complex that has swept this place like a firestorm.

I have read the endless "woe is us" threads on here, pedalling the idea that the AFL and other clubs are out to get the MFC. The AFL are not the enemy of the club. The last thing they want is to see it go under, and they've demonstrated that by hand delivering the best CEO and coach money can buy,

Whilst I think the AFL would want to be very clear on its criteria for PPs in the future if Melbourne's circumstances don't qualify, I see the logic to their decision. To suggest that another club would have succeeded in these circumstances is clutching at straws, and just serves the purpose of more pointless hand wringing.The fact the other clubs unsurprisingly support the decision is neither here nor there. The AFL will wait to see what unfolds given the dramatic changes at the club, with a list they deem not to be as bad as what it has shown. Another year to find that out isn't going to kill anyone.