You'll find the total average possessions per game has gone up a lot since those players debuted, so it's not really comparing apples with apples.

I love using statistics to make an argument. For example, Shannon Byrnes is clearly the outstanding forward in the competition in 2014 having kicked 40% of his team's goals.

Go down the "conservative" path and take who was considered the best credentialled player - if that doesn't work - recruiters get hammered. ( Morton, Toumpas, Scully, Trengove)

Go down the "speculative" path and take for needs or a possible smokey - if that doesn't work - recruiters get hammered. (Cook, Strauss, Gysberts)

Years after the draft - if pick 80 turned out better than our pick 20 ( geez - we could have had (insert any player that is going well in a good side) instead of (insert our player who has been playing crap football in a crap side)- recruiters get hammered. (why did take Marric at pick 21 - we could have Chris Mayne at pick 40)

Wouldn't you hate to be a recruiter.

I like young Toumpas, he'll be OK.

He's not the quickest kid on the park I admit but a good running coach can work wonders!

Remember Kevin Dyson? Worked for him! Became a very good player with a bit more leg speed!

And Dom's got more upside than Kev had!

Kev's a bit different to Jimmy, body size for a start. He just needed a chance and we gave it to him, he was dominating in the VFA after being turned down by Carlton I think it was.

the entire arguement has been exactly the opposite, i have not said anything bad about Wines just that 16 games is far too little time to know if Toumpas will be a good player in his own right or not

Tick Tock time is running out Sassy, Because we have recruited so abysmally in the past as has been canvased by other posters any comparison between Wines and Toumpas must be in the present. As a 50 + year old supporter of this club, I, like many are absolutely sick to the back teeth with lame recruiting of wrong types when our current and former needs have always been best player rather than speculative, "Elite" kicks, outside Run, Yadda Yadda etc. eg Cook, Maric, Strauss, et al. It all started when Diamond Jim Tilbrook was recruited for his "Prodigious" Kicking , problem was he never got it enough! We seem to have always been seduced by the finishing capabilities more so then the ball winners and lets face it you can't have too many of these types.

The fact we have been smashed in the ball getting department for so Bloody long makes this blunder all the more unforgiveable.

In fact I'll say it Now Ollie Wines is and will be much better than Jack Viney!! And so the inevitable comparison between Jimmy Toumpas is almost unfair. Fact Jimmy Toumpas possesions show a staggering 95 % uncontested. I could cop that if he had pace, hurt you on the attack and or rebound and kicks multiple goals. But he doesn't and I suspect won't.

Is there anyone that doubts we would be a much better side with Wines rather than Toumpas at present?

Nar people, the Blunders have been empathic and demonstrably inept and those who are responsible have badly let down the MFC to such an extent we may never get out of the holes we have dug for ourselves. Unfortunately unlike most holes these ones have pockets of Quicksand.

Pick draw blood fester, and until someone with recruiting nous takes over we shall remain the rabble we are!

Tick Tock time is running out Sassy, Because we have recruited so abysmally in the past as has been canvased by other posters any comparison between Wines and Toumpas must be in the present. As a 50 + year old supporter of this club, I, like many are absolutely sick to the back teeth with lame recruiting of wrong types when our current and former needs have always been best player rather than speculative, "Elite" kicks, outside Run, Yadda Yadda etc. eg Cook, Maric, Strauss, et al. It all started when Diamond Jim Tilbrook was recruited for his "Prodigious" Kicking , problem was he never got it enough! We seem to have always been seduced by the finishing capabilities more so then the ball winners and lets face it you can't have too many of these types.

The fact we have been smashed in the ball getting department for so Bloody long makes this blunder all the more unforgiveable.

In fact I'll say it Now Ollie Wines is and will be much better than Jack Viney!! And so the inevitable comparison between Jimmy Toumpas is almost unfair. Fact Jimmy Toumpas possesions show a staggering 95 % uncontested. I could cop that if he had pace, hurt you on the attack and or rebound and kicks multiple goals. But he doesn't and I suspect won't.

Is there anyone that doubts we would be a much better side with Wines rather than Toumpas at present?

Nar people, the Blunders have been empathic and demonstrably inept and those who are responsible have badly let down the MFC to such an extent we may never get out of the holes we have dug for ourselves. Unfortunately unlike most holes these ones have pockets of Quicksand.

Pick draw blood fester, and until someone with recruiting nous takes over we shall remain the rabble we are!

Yes Yes Yes

Go down the "conservative" path and take who was considered the best credentialled player - if that doesn't work - recruiters get hammered. ( Morton, Toumpas, Scully, Trengove)

Go down the "speculative" path and take for needs or a possible smokey - if that doesn't work - recruiters get hammered. (Cook, Strauss, Gysberts)

Years after the draft - if pick 80 turned out better than our pick 20 ( geez - we could have had (insert any player that is going well in a good side) instead of (insert our player who has been playing crap football in a crap side)- recruiters get hammered. (why did take Marric at pick 21 - we could have Chris Mayne at pick 40)

Wouldn't you hate to be a recruiter.

If they cant do it over the journey then they are the wrong recruiters

Should be easier than that. Go for Hunger, bit of mongrel and ball winning ability and you won't go far wrong! Whether they be mids, forwards or backs

He seems like a great kid with a good attitude & a fantastic person to have around the club but unfortunately I just don't get what type of player he is. He doesn't really win his own ball so he's not the in & under contested type. He doesn't seem to be any good overhead. His only plus is he's excellent by foot which suggest he's suited to an outside running receiver but he's as slow as a wet week.

Ollie Wines is Joel Selwood mk II - in a couple of years he could well be considered the best midfielder in the competition. He has pace, strength and for all the brickbats around his disposal I think he is a just about perfect mid as he can play inside-outside.

More hyperbole, you really think Wines will have surpassed Gary Ablett, Dangerfield, Pendlebury, Selwood himself, Fyfe, Griffen in 'a couple of years'?

Tick Tock time is running out Sassy, Because we have recruited so abysmally in the past as has been canvased by other posters any comparison between Wines and Toumpas must be in the present. As a 50 + year old supporter of this club, I, like many are absolutely sick to the back teeth with lame recruiting of wrong types when our current and former needs have always been best player rather than speculative, "Elite" kicks, outside Run, Yadda Yadda etc. eg Cook, Maric, Strauss, et al. It all started when Diamond Jim Tilbrook was recruited for his "Prodigious" Kicking , problem was he never got it enough! We seem to have always been seduced by the finishing capabilities more so then the ball winners and lets face it you can't have too many of these types.

The fact we have been smashed in the ball getting department for so Bloody long makes this blunder all the more unforgiveable.

In fact I'll say it Now Ollie Wines is and will be much better than Jack Viney!! And so the inevitable comparison between Jimmy Toumpas is almost unfair. Fact Jimmy Toumpas possesions show a staggering 95 % uncontested. I could cop that if he had pace, hurt you on the attack and or rebound and kicks multiple goals. But he doesn't and I suspect won't.

Is there anyone that doubts we would be a much better side with Wines rather than Toumpas at present?

Nar people, the Blunders have been empathic and demonstrably inept and those who are responsible have badly let down the MFC to such an extent we may never get out of the holes we have dug for ourselves. Unfortunately unlike most holes these ones have pockets of Quicksand.

Pick draw blood fester, and until someone with recruiting nous takes over we shall remain the rabble we are!

Okay, well actually his contested ball stat is more more 40% but don't let the truth get in the way of your argument,

and as i have said many times, i am not arguing Wines vs Toumpas, i'm not arguing Viney vs Wines, Wines playes for Port adelaide so i couldn't care less what he is doing

we have jimmy a 16 gamer who is copping an unfair comparison, so of course i am going to point out that after 16 games we can't hope to make an accurate assessment of where he is at without it being mostly a guess.

He seems like a great kid with a good attitude & a fantastic person to have around the club but unfortunately I just don't get what type of player he is. He doesn't really win his own ball so he's not the in & under contested type. He doesn't seem to be any good overhead. His only plus is he's excellent by foot which suggest he's suited to an outside running receiver but he's as slow as a wet week.

agreed 100%

If they cant do it over the journey then they are the wrong recruiters

You missed the whole point of the post. We have recruited following "experts and current wisdom" and we have recruited "speculatively" - neither have worked for us.

To my mind there has always been a common ingredient in all these failed recipes. In the main it isn't the recruiters or the recruits - it is the club they have come they have come into which has failed miserably in terms of a strong culture, an environment to succeed, and an ability to develop players.

When Roos say that "the players are better than they think are" ? What do you think he means ?

He seems like a great kid with a good attitude & a fantastic person to have around the club but unfortunately I just don't get what type of player he is. He doesn't really win his own ball so he's not the in & under contested type. He doesn't seem to be any good overhead. His only plus is he's excellent by foot which suggest he's suited to an outside running receiver but he's as slow as a wet week.

He's a hard running outside mid with elite skills and a great goal sense, his speed will come back as he gets his running style sorted, he was quite quick before he was drafted and he will develop his inside game, not concerned about him at all based on having seen alot on him playing

Jack Trengove is the one i think is a real worry at the minute.

You missed the whole point of the post. We have recruited following "experts and current wisdom" and we have recruited "speculatively" - neither have worked for us.

To my mind there has always been a common ingredient in all these failed recipes. In the main it isn't the recruiters or the recruits - it is the club they have come they have come into which has failed miserably in terms of a strong culture, an environment to succeed, and an ability to develop players.

When Roos say that "the players are better than they think are" ? What do you think he means ?

After Sundays press conference I am not sure even he thinks this any more if you saw it ?He is now keeping dosiers a hit list!

After Sundays press conference I am not sure even he thinks this any more if you saw it ?He is now keeping dosiers a hit list!

I agree. Sunday will have changed a lot of Roosy's initial comments. He has now been part of what we are all used to.

Could be a blessing. Speed up the process

Nutbean is spot on in my view.

All of these new draftees have come into an unsuccessful club which lacks any kind of stability... constantly changing coaches and management. The attitude of a few of these people was total rubbish, resulting in cultural stuff ups like the tanking saga.

With the big clean out of older players between 2007 - 2010 these young players lost the quality players which would have had a huge hand in helping them develop into senior footballers, leaving them looking up to the other recent draftees and a couple of mainstay players like Jones and Dunn, who were young themselves.

Being a financially struggling club, our coaches have been generally second tier which would also hinder the players development.

Anyway, the point is that all of these kids could play before they came in to our club. A combination of shattered confidence and poor development is the main cause of their decline. The only player I believe was probably never going to succeed at this level was Cook and that was just a huge blunder. The others have at one time or another played pretty well and then stagnated - Morton and Trengove prime examples.

Toumpas will succeed because in terms of attitude and development, we are on the right track. And he's a good footy player.

Toumpas reminds me a lot of a young Montagna. I think he will be a 200-game player.

Nutbean is spot on in my view.

All of these new draftees have come into an unsuccessful club which lacks any kind of stability... constantly changing coaches and management. The attitude of a few of these people was total rubbish, resulting in cultural stuff ups like the tanking saga.

With the big clean out of older players between 2007 - 2010 these young players lost the quality players which would have had a huge hand in helping them develop into senior footballers, leaving them looking up to the other recent draftees and a couple of mainstay players like Jones and Dunn, who were young themselves.

Being a financially struggling club, our coaches have been generally second tier which would also hinder the players development.

Anyway, the point is that all of these kids could play before they came in to our club. A combination of shattered confidence and poor development is the main cause of their decline. The only player I believe was probably never going to succeed at this level was Cook and that was just a huge blunder. The others have at one time or another played pretty well and then stagnated - Morton and Trengove prime examples.

Toumpas will succeed because in terms of attitude and development, we are on the right track. And he's a good footy player.

What exactly did every expert in the footballing world see at TAC level with the likes of Toumpas, Morton, Scully, Trengove ....etc etc.

It was not just our recruiters who saw it but go and read everything said about these boys from people who are paid to watch the TAC/Junior football and/or report on it.

It is like every highly rated recruit we have drafted has left all talent, speed, skill and willingness to develop at the front door of the MFC the minute they were invited in.

The common link is not who is being invited through the door but what's awaits behind the door itself.

What exactly did every expert in the footballing world see at TAC level with the likes of Toumpas, Morton, Scully, Trengove ....etc etc.

It was not just our recruiters who saw it but go and read everything said about these boys from people who are paid to watch the TAC/Junior football and/or report on it.

It is like every highly rated recruit we have drafted has left all talent, speed, skill and willingness to develop at the front door of the MFC the minute they were invited in.

The common link is not who is being invited through the door but what's awaits behind the door itself.

And the only meaningful comparison between Wines & Toumpas is when they're playing in teams of equal quality.

Until then, it's just hot air.

More hyperbole, you really think Wines will have surpassed Gary Ablett, Dangerfield, Pendlebury, Selwood himself, Fyfe, Griffen in 'a couple of years'?

Not to mention shiel, treloar, omera, Martin, Greene, crouch, macrae, prestia...

Some of the "supporters" on here are a disgrace. Typically it's the same handful again. Jimmy took a while to get going last year but has improved out of sight since then. It's a shame some of his older, more experienced team mates haven't improved. It's a wonder collingwood didn't cut Scott pendlebury in his first season, or what if essendon cut the painfully slow Jobe Watson? New rule for all afl players- you have to have dominated a game of afl in your first 16 or else you're pigeonholed as NQR.

Not to mention shiel, treloar, omera, Martin, Greene, crouch, macrae, prestia...

Some of the "supporters" on here are a disgrace. Typically it's the same handful again. Jimmy took a while to get going last year but has improved out of sight since then. It's a shame some of his older, more experienced team mates haven't improved. It's a wonder collingwood didn't cut Scott pendlebury in his first season, or what if essendon cut the painfully slow Jobe Watson? New rule for all afl players- you have to have dominated a game of afl in your first 16 or else you're pigeonholed as NQR.

You're probably selling Wines short abit, he is certainly in that group as one of the better up and coming midfielders in the comp

but you're also right in 16 games is far too short a time to make a judgement on a player to the extent of saying he will never be any good, Jobe was very nearly traded by Sheedy.

You're probably selling Wines short abit, he is certainly in that group as one of the better up and coming midfielders in the comp

but you're also right in 16 games is far too short a time to make a judgement on a player to the extent of saying he will never be any good, Jobe was very nearly traded by Sheedy.

Look, as a football lover I do love to watch wines, and I'll include chad wingard who similarly to toumpas, had a poor first season with a team that looked hopeless. The debate about wines vs toumpas is not only ridiculous for it's circumstantial differences, but also for for it's premature timeframe. It's not toumpas' responsibility to lift the team on his own. As long as he plays his part, contributes and learns from his mistakes. If in years 4+ he is still averaging 17 disposals then we can wear it, until then, give him the chance to learn and improve, and turn the blowtorch onto guys with 5+ years experience who are still making the same mistakes as they were back when they had 16 games experience.

I really hope that Salem and Viney starts to play some good footy early, so that the same pathetic posters here ridiculing toump can start to see a good drafting/trading decision pay off.

As a 50 + year old supporter of this club, I, like many are absolutely sick to the back teeth with lame recruiting of wrong types ...

You speak for the "many"? Or just the "many" on Demonland? Or perhaps just the "many" in this thread.

You certainly don't speak for me.

You speak for the "many"? Or just the "many" on Demonland? Or perhaps just the "many" in this thread.

You certainly don't speak for me.

Bing this will probably offend you but I think you re in the Minority.

I am happy to be in PF's "many" on Demonland or anywhere else

Look, as a football lover I do love to watch wines, and I'll include chad wingard who similarly to toumpas, had a poor first season with a team that looked hopeless. The debate about wines vs toumpas is not only ridiculous for it's circumstantial differences, but also for for it's premature timeframe. It's not toumpas' responsibility to lift the team on his own. As long as he plays his part, contributes and learns from his mistakes. If in years 4+ he is still averaging 17 disposals then we can wear it, until then, give him the chance to learn and improve, and turn the blowtorch onto guys with 5+ years experience who are still making the same mistakes as they were back when they had 16 games experience.

I really hope that Salem and Viney starts to play some good footy early, so that the same pathetic posters here ridiculing toump can start to see a good drafting/trading decision pay off.

Salem will play good footy. He has a terrific blend of skills, toughness and poise - everything Scully doesn't have.

I think Salem is one that we are going to get right, he'll be a VERY good player.

This pick 2 swap will turn out to be an absolute stroke of genius.