It seems there are three options in this case:

• the Essendon players knowingly took banned substances
• the Essendon players unwittingly took banned substances
• the Essendon players did not take any banned substances

All the discussion appears to suggest the Essendon players should take a penalty because (a) there's enough evidence to suggest some wrongdoing or (b) the issue annoys the AFL-supporting public and this is the best way for the problem to go away.

But if I was a player (of any team, but in this case Essendon) and I was convinced I had not taken any banned substances, I'd be fighting for the right to have my name cleared. It's not good enough for us to say these players should be penalised because of poor management or governance by their employer. It certainly shouldn't be good enough for them to be penalised if there isn't sufficient evidence to confirm they took a banned substance (knowingly or unwittingly). And it definitely isn't appropriate that they should be penalised just because the football supporting community is sick of the whole saga.

If it can be proven that the players took banned substances, then they should be penalised. I'm yet to be convinced there is proof or even sufficient evidence to mount a case - but I don't know what ASADA does and presumably ASADA thinks otherwise.

They have their opportunity to respond to the Show Cause notices.

If they don't they will be banned.

If they throw their lot in with Ess and/or fail to respond to the system they signed up for then they are stuffed.

How did you feel about the East German athletes when they were burning down the tracks fuelled by their state run chemistry labs or the 15 year old Chinese swimmers and their baritone voices.

How did you get there from what I said?

It seems there are three options in this case:

• the Essendon players knowingly took banned substances
• the Essendon players unwittingly took banned substances
• the Essendon players did not take any banned substances

All the discussion appears to suggest the Essendon players should take a penalty because (a) there's enough evidence to suggest some wrongdoing or (b) the issue annoys the AFL-supporting public and this is the best way for the problem to go away.

But if I was a player (of any team, but in this case Essendon) and I was convinced I had not taken any banned substances, I'd be fighting for the right to have my name cleared. It's not good enough for us to say these players should be penalised because of poor management or governance by their employer. It certainly shouldn't be good enough for them to be penalised if there isn't sufficient evidence to confirm they took a banned substance (knowingly or unwittingly). And it definitely isn't appropriate that they should be penalised just because the football supporting community is sick of the whole saga.

If it can be proven that the players took banned substances, then they should be penalised. I'm yet to be convinced there is proof or even sufficient evidence to mount a case - but I don't know what ASADA does and presumably ASADA thinks otherwise.

I'm 100% with you. And the Essendon players now have the chance to put their side of the story forward in the show cause notice whether it is that they believe they are innocent or whether they aren't sure.

Now is their chance. AND as McDevitt said, if they continue to go along with the process and put in response to show cause consistent with their interviews, ASADA will look favourably on their assistance and on the no significant fault IF they are found to have breached the code.

BUT right now they are fighting the process and not cooperating.

As a sideline to this issue, I'd like to get some idea of how fellow DL'ers would react if it was our club in the gun eg if Robbie Flower or Garry Loinchop was 'our James'.

Of the six or so Dons supporters I know well, including one who tips many $1000's into their coffers each year, all are fervent in their belief that the EFC is totally innocent.

If it was the MFC instead of the EFC I would want everyone involved removed from the club and hope that the players could cop no more than a six month ban.

It's interesting to read the comments that follow the items about the EFC saga on the HUN website.

Here's one example that followed yesterday's story re Sarah the distraught mother of an EFC player:

Chris 13 hours ago

@Mike Yep, and do a quick google search on Melbourne and Dank, you will find they were using more than AOD, as well as having a detailed injection program. But that's the power of the media, Essendon are a bigger club so they didn't really bother with Melbourne.

Not sure how any intelligent person can read whats been written and mainain a fervent view that Essendon are innocent. I can understand wanting them to be innocent and suported the club regardles of the actions of individuals but it seems many at the club have invoked the ostrich defence on this one

Wrote this 2 weeks ago on this thread.

Forget about essendon footy club for a moment and put yourself in the players mind.

Simple solution to all this innocence/guilty stuff,appear for the SC and state your case.

There's no question after all the court cases/threats/mediaBS and drivel put out by EFC,that all a player has to do to end this saga.

Go in the front door and answer SC.saga over.

How did you feel about the East German athletes when they were burning down the tracks fuelled by their state run chemistry labs or the 15 year old Chinese swimmers and their baritone voices.

Regarding the East Germans. At the time, I was actually impressed by their groovy and luxuriant moustaches (male and female athletes)

Franky - ASADA and the AFL (and consequently its clubs, staff and players) have an agreement in place which essentially states that matters relating to anti-doping violations will be investigated by ASADA and a separate panel will then determine whether there is a case against them. If that happens, it's up to an AFL Tribunal to consider the evidence and apply sanctions if applicable. The world body WADA has the right to appeal any decision which it is not satisfied with - the appeal goes to the Court of Arbitration in Sport (CAS). The parties have contracted that the procedure is outside our sovereign law and the WADA Code (and not our common law) is paramount.

However, there is a limited right based on sovereign administrative law for parties to take issues to our local courts - in this case the Federal Court where Essendon is claiming that ASADA has acted ultra vires or outside the scope of its remit and therefore, to allow ASADA to apply the results of its investigation process to further the case against the players amounts to a denial of natural justice.

There is a directions hearing set for tomorrow in the Federal Court which will deal with matters of how the court's process in dealing with the case is to proceed all the way to a hearing. Issues to be discussed are likely to be the outline of each side's arguments. whether mediation is to take place, what documents need to be produced, what witnesses will be involved, whether the players should be joined in the proceedings, final written statements and submissions and the setting of dates for the hearing. At one stage there was talk that the matter would take several months to reach the final hearing stage but latest reports suggest it will be set down for a date in August. The Court might not make its final decision known on the day of the hearing.

As to what happens with Dank. Who knows where he's going to be by August? I don't think it's going to be in as good a place as Paris.

Just saw this.

Thanks Jack!

No, ASADA issue infraction notices to players. The AFL then bans the players.

ASADA does NOT hand down penalties.

Also, Under Article 11 of the WADA code, if more than two players from any team are found to have committed an anti-doping offence, the ruling body of their competition is required to impose an "appropriate sanction" against the whole team, which could include loss of points or disqualification from the competition.

Yes there is scope to ban the club for future years, but there would also be scope to void all results 2012-2014 and leave it at that. Your suggestion that 12 months deregistration is required is fabricated.

Go have a read of the code, it is interesting, easy to read and it isn't hard to find.

I'd suggest that in determining an "appropriate sanction" the ruling body (is this the AFL?) would apply one that penalises the club and not the entire competition. It is quite possible last years sanctions from the AFL would be deemed appropriate.

Good God

Even Robert Gotliebson the business journo is getting in on the act. saying ASADA has acted improperly. Oh, and then he reveals in his footnote

Footnote: I am an Essendon supporter and a social member of the Essendonians. My views are my own and not those of the Essendon Football Club or any other Essendonians.

At least he does that unlike the other sycophants and acolytes who write for the HSun.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2014/6/25/gaming-and-racing/asada-gets-taste-its-own-medicine

Good God

Even Robert Gotliebson the business journo is getting in on the act. saying ASADA has acted improperly. Oh, and then he reveals in his footnote

Footnote: I am an Essendon supporter and a social member of the Essendonians. My views are my own and not those of the Essendon Football Club or any other Essendonians.

At least he does that unlike the other sycophants and acolytes who write for the HSun.

http://www.businessspectator.com.au/article/2014/6/25/gaming-and-racing/asada-gets-taste-its-own-medicine

you'd think he'd know better and just stfu

Alavi would be concerned about his licence to practice as a compunding chemist. Reading between the lines it seems Dank was trying to cover up a few tracks and Alavi is not having any of it because his livlihood could be at stake.

.........

AHPRA, who regulate both the medical and the pharmaceutical professions (as well as many others) could have a two-for-one with Alavi and Reid.

If I read correctly, Alavi admits to compounding vials (another earlier poster perhaps accidentally, perhaps intentionally, referred too them as "viles") and dispensing them without labelling!!

How can that be anything other than unprofessional conduct? Dispensing unlabelled vials!!! Unbelievable (or would be were in not a part of this whole unsavoury saga).

Nice in wing fuel tanks. (Sorry, I shouldn't use the word "tank" in jest - the AFL could take a really dim view of it. Far worse than drug cheating perhaps).

Those seem to full, quick get some stomachs to inject into!!!

I'd suggest that in determining an "appropriate sanction" the ruling body (is this the AFL?) would apply one that penalises the club and not the entire competition. It is quite possible last years sanctions from the AFL would be deemed appropriate.

That's how I read it. It may be compete for no points. It may be retrospectively remove points for 2012/13 (which may explain why the AFL banned them from finals but didn't strip points, so that they can do that this time).

That's how I read it. It may be compete for no points. It may be retrospectively remove points for 2012/13 (which may explain why the AFL banned them from finals but didn't strip points, so that they can do that this time).

that would be a major cop out for the AFL...cant see WADA letting that slide through.

It's legit.

Stephen Dank questioned by police over allegedly stolen peptides

I bet old chip "i love essendon and jaques tird" le grand enjoyed writing that one

It appears the Inner Inter-Governments workings have got the forces out, to persuade some to break cover & give evidence... this will get interesting from here, & no doubt the players will walk away clean.... But the Clubs instigators are the ones who should fall.

I have No Issue with Dank, as he is at the pointy end of his science. Ahead of general medicine. Useful for people with ailments.

Although I don't agree with the cheating Our AFL system. So I hope he gets off.

But I want the AFL to stop the cheats.

Proof here will be tough IMO.

Possibly, but what is the relevance of that to this sorry saga of cheating and deceit ??

My understanding, possibly incorrect, is that all this ACC involvement was well after the event though. They had been given whatever they had been given long before ACC appeared on the scene.

Most eloquently put, sir.

players at AFL level will do almost Anything to achieve their dreams, including putting things on, & In their bodies, when told too. they will obey in ignorance from the pressure of losing their dreams, their Passion.

It's like a gun to their head. but when the club leaders say its 'OK' the other sheep will meekly follow. I notice that the Capatain is out injured, for what will be the rest of season...

.... so Whether it be steroids in the '80's (elephant juice)... intravenous fluids at the half time breaks during the early 2000's, Or peptides, proteins, amino acids; injections of all sorts, anti-fat injections so they can Eat copious amounts. Building up weight, strength, & mass quickly. Without the Pederson syndrome.

What we really need is a Jack Bauer type cop to arrest Dank and interrogate a confession out of him. Metal nipple pegs and a cow taser should do the trick!

Fox could even televise it after 24 in a blockbuster double header, such is their moral depravity!

No we don't want him off the streets, we want him out of sport.

Let him work in the aging & stress related medical sciences, Alzheimers, old age forgetfulness, Parkinson's, Hypothyroidism, & fountain of youth areas, so he do some good.

Thats what i am led to believe,

Dank claims he called ASADA and was told that it was legal but does not have a reference number of the call.

But havnt ASADA left the AOD and moved it completely onto the TD-4 stuff?

Thats the way it looks to me to. AOD is probably tough to convict on, & most likely very many players used it,, too many to lose... but the TB4 & others may be more likely to get a conviction on the suppliers, but may be harder to prove. less players get caught?

No we don't want him off the streets, we want him out of sport.

Let him work in the aging & stress related medical sciences, Alzheimers, old age forgetfulness, Parkinson's, Hypothyroidism, & fountain of youth areas, so he do some good.

Jeez, closing in on old age forgetfulness, maybe, but I wouldn't want him working on me.

The Bumbers appear to isolated themselves from the AFL administration and most other clubs and have renderd it impossible for the AFL, ASADA or any other agency to work with them in any way.

Most agencies apply the law with a degree of discretion through the prosecutors office and that is always in favour of the accused. What Little and Hird have done is ensure that the law will be applied to the letter and that realy is not in the interest of the club or the players.

There is no chance of the AFL or politicians attempting to apply any influence on the outcome of this now. The AFL is now in defence mode regarding the conduct of the initial investgation and cannot support the Bumbers even if they wanted to. If Essendon win the Federal court matter they are likely to lodge writs against the AFL and seek compensation for punishment already received. The AFL's interests now firmly lie with the success of the ASADA case as do the interests of the other clubs that rely on the finances of the AFL and that cannot be good for Essendon.

There is a reason Bomber Thompson stated in a presser that the club felt isolated and alone, its because they are.

The realy stupid thing is that even a complete win in the Federal Court in favour of the Bumbers it will see them condemed for ever more as drug cheats because it only reinforces their guilt.

Ha Ha, I suspect they already have, months back... way before the judge was appointed to oversee all things prosecution-wise. the Polies will want only the instigators banged up & the sports left in-tact...

Watch this unfold.... it'll be Verrdy IntereststinK.

What Pollies want ( esp any with Windiness about them ) ..and WADA WILL get ...I think might be somewhat different.....as it should.

Jeez, closing in on old age forgetfulness, maybe, but I wouldn't want him working on me.

he's right up there with the latest sciences that I can see, with all these protein chains, etc.. This is the way of the future. To be able to turn on & off, the genes that Help us, or Ail us.

Cancers, Diabetes, Obesity, Arthritis, etc.

Regarding the East Germans. At the time, I was actually impressed by their groovy and luxuriant moustaches (male and female athletes)

pre Brazilian competitions tho Jack. these days, theres no hiding the truth, with fine synthetic swimsuit materials, etc. Oh for the original Greek days, hey. Foxtel would sell a squilllion.