If we can't develop Toumpas Into an elite player we should chuck it in. He has quality coming out his ears.

Totally agree. And can we please keep him from Casey Fields as much as possible.And also please limit Hogans time there. Don't know what it is about that place but it does seem to swallow talent up.

It's disheartening.

All I could think was we'd have been blown away by those two middle of the road teams last night. And it all starts in the middle of the ground.

No use having Mitch and Dawes if it hardly gets down there.

I was convinced Scully would be great, he's rubbish. I really hope Viney lives up to the high expectations, I hope he gets more BOGs than he gets KO'd, these are some huge bodies he'll be throwing himself at.

I'm sure Toumpas is the goods, I'm not so sure we have ball getters and structures to utilize his weapons.

Jones has improved out of sight, but in any other team he'd be the soldier that compliments the star mid, not the main man.

I've gone cold on Trengove. Not enough tricks, no explosive power, no deadly boot. He's a good mark for his size and a young leader, I want more from a #2 pick. The keeping your feet rule will work in his favour though.

I'm confident Blease will be a gun, but again do we have the other blokes to get out to him and keep him busy every week? Not yet.

Sylvia. The reason I'm so skeptical.

Apart from Judd, there was no one out there last night that has played a better game than Sylvia did against Hawthorn about four years ago. Yet still we wait for another glimpse of that talent. Over it.

It'd help if we had a better ruckman that gets us moving. Jamar's taps are infuriating, they just roll down his arm and land at his feet. Just hit it anywhere at least, give us some mystery.

It'll be another tough year, or two.

Having said that, I believe we have a team that can beat Port at the G.

That pretty much sums up the situation.

I just hope that in a few years we don't look back and regret not taking Wines.

If you can't have a scull on the Wino, have a sip on the viney down past the 'grove.

I've gone cold on Trengove. Not enough tricks, no explosive power, no deadly boot. He's a good mark for his size and a young leader, I want more from a #2 pick. The keeping your feet rule will work in his favour though.

Based on last year I'd have to agree, but I suspect he had injuries issues and clearly looked weighed down by the teams form and how he could improve it as the captain.

I'm going to be watching him closely once he's back. He consistently struggles getting though a preseason which effects him a bit too. He's spoken about taking the game on more and being braver which sounds good to me. He needs to enjoy himself and the rest will come.

With most of what DA said, except for the Jamar criticism.

If we could get better in the midfield this year, we will come on on leaps and bounds with Jamar's tap skills.

I am tired of prognosticating about kids. I want them to show me something (Viney, Toumpas, Matt Jones, Kent, et al.) and I want those that have shown something to have consistent seasons (Trengove, Blease, McKenzie) to join Grimes and Jones as reliable midfielders of a high quality.

Baby steps: we can't talk about being elite until we can play four quarters of footy at a decent level with a midfield that can win some hard footy.

Maybe we will see some glimpses o that this year...

There's a distinction between midfielders and midfield. These days a champion midfielder does not make a champion midfield. It's all about talented players growing and developing together as a unit. Playing in combination, developing an understanding between each other.

We have midfielders who have as much talent and potential as any team. Trengove, for just one example, was at least the equal of Martin when they were drafted, but one has been part of an effective midfield (and has been able to develop within it) and one hasn't.

The question is, are we capable of building an effective and potent midfield out of our potentially-talented midfielders? So far there's no evidence that we can.

I think it is interesting that we simply don't have an experienced 'champion' midfielder in our group, and haven't for quite some years.

Our group right now seems to have a good supply of honest workers who will grind out a moderate share of fairly good clearances. But there are very few producing the decisive clearances that really launch an attack, and can change the momentum of a game with just a few in a row.

We also have the problem that at the moment Nathan Jones is our only seriously consistent performer in the midfield a the moment, for various reasons.

I don't know where we will find someone from 'category A', unless Syliva can thing thing blah blah... (you know the drill).

As for 'category B', we could have a great core in a few years, with Jones, Grimes and Trengove all the kind of characters that work hard for consistency and steady improvement.

I like McKenzie but won't make assumptions about his future development beyond saying I think he'll be a contributor for years to come.

We have a host of the mature-age rugged types who will at least provide honest effort, but if more than a couple of them are filling our midfield in a few year's time, we've either lucked out dramatically with recruitment or will be hitting our ceiling of growth.

A lot rides on the development of Viney and Toumpas. If they bring us +2 quality, consistent midfielders, we're seriously cooking.

Other than that, we can always pin our hopes on Billy Stretch.

Right now we have one quality mid fielder in Jones.

The rest are Half forwards or half backs that are trying to fill in for our lack of Mids.

We have recruited a couple of kids who in all fairness will need at least two years

Before we can expect matching winning performances from them.

We have recruited a couple of veterans to help out over the next couple of years

But as some one mentioned earlier we need to recruit a gun.

If we can recruit a quality seasoned player next year and the kids come on as well as expected.

Then I guess we will have a quality mid field around 2015 -6.

Until then we will have to make do with Trengove, Grimes and Sylvia.

The rest are average players at best

Right now we have one quality mid fielder in Jones.

The rest are Half forwards or half backs that are trying to fill in for our lack of Mids.

We have recruited a couple of kids who in all fairness will need at least two years

Before we can expect matching winning performances from them.

We have recruited a couple of veterans to help out over the next couple of years

But as some one mentioned earlier we need to recruit a gun.

If we can recruit a quality seasoned player next year and the kids come on as well as expected.

Then I guess we will have a quality mid field around 2015 -6.

Until then we will have to make do with Trengove, Grimes and Sylvia.

The rest are average players at best

I wouldn't write Trengove off just yet as a make do, I think he will be A grade mid in the not to distant future. Grimes, I'm still not sure if he's better mid or half back, he needs a clear run at it. At worst he will be a really good solid footballer.

What does everyone think about guys like Taggert and Evans?

What does everyone think about guys like Taggert and Evans?

Taggert who knows at this point.

Evans I held high hopes for him and he has had a bad run with injuries.

But his NAB cup form looked ordinary.

This is going early but looks average to me.

I wouldn't write Trengove off just yet as a make do, I think he will be A grade mid in the not to distant future. Grimes, I'm still not sure if he's better mid or half back, he needs a clear run at it. At worst he will be a really good solid footballer.

I think he will be a great half forward rjay

What does everyone think about guys like Taggert and Evans?

I think Taggert is a well rounded player good size, really good kick so I'm interested in his progress this year. I hope he can break into the senior side, one game for Casey at Box Hill gave an indication of what he could be which was very good.

Evans has shown he is a ball winner, sometimes a bit wayward with his kicking, showed a bit early in his career.

Both come off injury plagued seasons so it's an important year coming up.

I think he will be a great half forward rjay

I still see him as a Bartel type 'old dee', isn't the complete product yet. We will know more at the end of this season though.

It hurts watching Dustin Martin. He's in a different class to Trengove who to my mind is really just a worker bee. As DA said - hardly what you'd want from a No.2 draft pick.

I still see him as a Bartel type 'old dee', isn't the complete product yet. We will know more at the end of this season though.

I don't expect much this year rjay

He has had a poor pre season because of injury.

That usually means he starts 2 months behind everyone else.

At best I don't expect a lot before June

It hurts watching Dustin Martin. He's in a different class to Trengove who to my mind is really just a worker bee. As DA said - hardly what you'd want from a No.2 draft pick.

As I said earlier RR I think he will be a good half Forward

I wouldn't write Trengove off just yet as a make do, I think he will be A grade mid in the not to distant future. Grimes, I'm still not sure if he's better mid or half back, he needs a clear run at it. At worst he will be a really good solid footballer.

Fit and injury free Trengove will be a very fine footballer. We can't base anything off last season as he did play with a busted foot, (not the medical term!)

It hurts watching Dustin Martin. He's in a different class to Trengove who to my mind is really just a worker bee. As DA said - hardly what you'd want from a No.2 draft pick.

True ,

Dusty looks the goods currently .

I reckon we'll get more miles from JT over the long run.

"Puzzles" will fire up this year.

I don't expect much this year rjay

He has had a poor pre season because of injury.

That usually means he starts 2 months behind everyone else.

At best I don't expect a lot before June

Yeah 'old dee' the injury is a blow but he does have a good fitness base which may carry him through. Your June timeline is probably on the mark though. The positive is he should be free of any nagging injuries he seemed to carry last season.

It hurts watching Dustin Martin. He's in a different class to Trengove who to my mind is really just a worker bee. As DA said - hardly what you'd want from a No.2 draft pick.

Wouldn't touch Martin 'RR', way to much baggage there. Likely to self combust at any time.

Yeah 'old dee' the injury is a blow but he does have a good fitness base which may carry him through. Your June timeline is probably on the mark though. The positive is he should be free of any nagging injuries he seemed to carry last season.

In spite of all was said rjay he looked to be carrying something.

He was struggling to kick 40 metres.

Cannot remember which game but he was 30 metres from goal and did make the distance.

Something was hampering him last year

Trengove's lack of speed and explosiveness is stopping him from progressing from a serviceable player.

I don't expect much this year rjay

He has had a poor pre season because of injury.

That usually means he starts 2 months behind everyone else.

At best I don't expect a lot before June

there it is again

miss the first game due to not being quite ready = nothing expected of you for the following 8 matches

Trengove's lack of speed and explosiveness is stopping him from progressing from a serviceable player.

I think that is unfair. I never saw him as an Ablett or Judd. In my view, he is to be a Lenny Hayes type accumulator while tough in the clinches.

He is still tracking toward that.