Yeah, right, 'don't blame me, I only mentioned "indigenous boys" as a group. It's everyone else who want to see this as having something to do with race.' What you refuse to accept is that you imposed a racial category in the first place and used the behaviour of a few individuals as standing for the behaviour of a group.

That's straightforward stereotyping of course. I was just being a bit more euphemistic in calling it racial profiling. Actually I called it amateur-hour racial profiling to distinguish it from the real thing, which is what law enforcement agencies are said to do ... and which you also try to repeat with your 'the vast majority of violent crime ... blah blah'. Whether or not the 'vast majority' of anything is done by the members of any group doesn't make every member of that group culpable.

You're pretty free with claims about the ignorance of others. Perhaps you might start to look at your own. You might be comfortable with what you've posted, but it's your problem if you're uncomfortable with the responses you get.

I don't see what your gripe is. Yes, I said that the image of indigenous footballers has not been dealt any favours from these events. What's wrong with that? You're the one who's forcing the topic in the direction of stereotypes and group behaviour. FFS, give it a rest.

As for the rest of your post. Blah blah....

I don't see what your gripe is. Yes, I said that the image of indigenous footballers has not been dealt any favours from these events. What's wrong with that? You're the one who's forcing the topic in the direction of stereotypes and group behaviour. FFS, give it a rest.

As for the rest of your post. Blah blah....

No you didn't.

But, as you say, you're comfortable with your ignorance. There's little point in adding anything because only the world has a problem, not you.

I personally think Mcqueen has stated a fact and part of the fact involves indigenous footballers.

Lets be honest the number of those recruited has dwindled and the reason probably needs to be looked at by the AFL.

I know for a fact Mifsud never contacted Phil Smart of Swan Districts despite the well documented case of Dayle Garlett for two years.

We can't hold back on speaking the truth for fear of being labelled a racist, that time has passed and the problems need to be addressed by everyone or we will get nowhere.

There are to many people taking quids whilst holding positions within the AFL, ALS and other indigenous councils without really addressing the problems.

The issue goes beyond footy and is across society, problems with indigenous youth are widespread and it is only natural they will flow into the AFL. Matty Rendell was hung out to dry for basically being honest. I fully understand where he is coming from why take the risk when other options are available.

There is a difference in honesty and racism

No you didn't.

But, as you say, you're comfortable with your ignorance. There's little point in adding anything because only the world has a problem, not you.

"it's fair to say that WA's young indigenous boys haven't done their image any favours":

That's pretty damn close but there seems to be no satisfying you today, Dr.

I personally think Mcqueen has stated a fact and part of the fact involves indigenous footballers.

Lets be honest the number of those recruited has dwindled and the reason probably needs to be looked at by the AFL.

I know for a fact Mifsud never contacted Phil Smart of Swan Districts despite the well documented case of Dayle Garlett for two years.

We can't hold back on speaking the truth for fear of being labelled a racist, that time has passed and the problems need to be addressed by everyone or we will get nowhere.

There are to many people taking quids whilst holding positions within the AFL, ALS and other indigenous councils without really addressing the problems.

The issue goes beyond footy and is across society, problems with indigenous youth are widespread and it is only natural they will flow into the AFL. Matty Rendell was hung out to dry for basically being honest. I fully understand where he is coming from why take the risk when other options are available.

There is a difference in honesty and racism

...and this is another reason why his position needs to be reviewed. He seems to me to like playing political games and leaking to the media whilst not getting his hands dirty sorting out real issues. Rendell, the messenger was shot and Neeld on fabricated evidence hung out to dry.

The quality of the indigenous footballers passed up and the total number selected in this years draft should be setting off alarm bells at headquarters but unfortunately they seem more about image than action.

"it's fair to say that WA's young indigenous boys haven't done their image any favours":

That's pretty damn close but there seems to be no satisfying you today, Dr.

You want to say that facts are facts, Steve. (They're not, of course, they're always open to interpretations of various sorts).

I'll insist that words are words. Close is not the same and doesn't get rid of a particular problem in how you phrased things initially. But let's just say I don't take you to be a racist, I'm just a bit more concerned with the effects of words than you might be. It's a professional hazard.

Satisfied? It's not really a question of whether I'm satisfied or not. Just exercising my right to question/criticise/add to any other post I read.

You want to say that facts are facts, Steve. (They're not, of course, they're always open to interpretations of various sorts).

I'll insist that words are words. Close is not the same and doesn't get rid of a particular problem in how you phrased things initially. But let's just say I don't take you to be a racist, I'm just a bit more concerned with the effects of words than you might be. It's a professional hazard.

Satisfied? It's not really a question of whether I'm satisfied or not. Just exercising my right to question/criticise/add to any other post I read.

I see no problem with how I first phrased things.

You need to ease up on semantics and your care for words in this public forum. Whether it's an occupational hazard or not gives little credence to the stark reality confronting indigenous youth Australia wide. I will maintain that the problem is far worse than many realise and AFL footballers play a huge role in changing not only the perception but more importantly outcomes.

But you continue on with dissecting my posts with semantics if that's what satisfies you.

I see no problem with how I first phrased things.

You need to ease up on semantics and your care for words in this public forum. Whether it's an occupational hazard or not gives little credence to the stark reality confronting indigenous youth Australia wide. I will maintain that the problem is far worse than many realise and AFL footballers play a huge role in changing not only the perception but more importantly outcomes.

But you continue on with dissecting my posts with semantics if that's what satisfies you.

I don't think you quite get it about words. It's not just semantics. Words affect lives, especially when they're used carelessly or as instruments of law, social categorisation and control and so on. And I don't dispute anything about the problems facing Indigenous youth (I know a lot more about these than you might guess). What I do know is that the way those problems are talked about and thought about matter.

As for what I do and don't attend to in posts, we all have our different perspectives and expertises and enthusiasms, and one of the good things about a site like DL is how these can intersect and add to conversations and understandings. But you foreclosed on anything like that from you initial post so there's not much point in saying anything else.

I don't think you quite get it about words. It's not just semantics. Words affect lives, especially when they're used carelessly or as instruments of law, social categorisation and control and so on. And I don't dispute anything about the problems facing Indigenous youth (I know a lot more about these than you might guess). What I do know is that the way those problems are talked about and thought about matter.

As for what I do and don't attend to in posts, we all have our different perspectives and expertises and enthusiasms, and one of the good things about a site like DL is how these can intersect and add to conversations and understandings. But you foreclosed on anything like that from you initial post so there's not much point in saying anything else.

We differ on less important items than what is at the crux of this issue. I'm glad you have some indepth knowledge of these problems.

Let's leave it there.

Good day, Dr.

I personally think Mcqueen has stated a fact and part of the fact involves indigenous footballers.

Lets be honest the number of those recruited has dwindled and the reason probably needs to be looked at by the AFL.

I know for a fact Mifsud never contacted Phil Smart of Swan Districts despite the well documented case of Dayle Garlett for two years.

We can't hold back on speaking the truth for fear of being labelled a racist, that time has passed and the problems need to be addressed by everyone or we will get nowhere.

There are to many people taking quids whilst holding positions within the AFL, ALS and other indigenous councils without really addressing the problems.

The issue goes beyond footy and is across society, problems with indigenous youth are widespread and it is only natural they will flow into the AFL. Matty Rendell was hung out to dry for basically being honest. I fully understand where he is coming from why take the risk when other options are available.

There is a difference in honesty and racism

Either his heart was in the right place but he exposed an existing prejudice, or he was making extreme comments in an effort to draw greater attention, but there is no denying that Rendell's comments were racially offensive.

To attribute the shortcomings of some young indigenous players to their race alone, and to contend that having a white parent would somehow fix those issues, is terribly offensive.

There was a way of approaching the issue without making it border on a racist rant.

Either his heart was in the right place but he exposed an existing prejudice, or he was making extreme comments in an effort to draw greater attention, but there is no denying that Rendell's comments were racially offensive.

To attribute the shortcomings of some young indigenous players to their race alone, and to contend that having a white parent would somehow fix those issues, is terribly offensive.

There was a way of approaching the issue without making it border on a racist rant.

I do not know what he said verbatim but my take was if you have two players who are equal you would er on the side of caution and not take the indigenous kid due to teh risk factor.

and my take is he was not referring to all indigenous kids but those who come from very different backgrounds to metro areas.

the short comings are not attributed to their race alone they are attributed to the environment they come from and like I said it is a problem with society which has filtered through to the AFL

"it's fair to say that WA's young indigenous boys haven't done their image any favours":

That's pretty damn close but there seems to be no satisfying you today, Dr.

Many from WA have been in 'issues', to say the least..

aggression is good for footy, with discipline, but not for the streets & bars.

Let's leave it there.

You've labelled 11 people 'ignorant' for 'liking' a post . That's a rather lavish way of describing a group of people who may have simply partly or fully agreed with a post or perhaps disagreed with your point of view.

Your initial comment (right or wrong) could easily have been viewed as somewhat inflammatory and you should have known that .

Edited January 2, 201312 yr by Macca

You've labelled 11 people 'ignorant' for 'liking' a post . That's a rather lavish way of describing a group of people who may have simply partly or fully agreed with a post or perhaps disagreed with your point of view.

Your initial comment (right or wrong) could easily have been viewed as somewhat inflammatory and you should have known that .

It was only 8 when I said that.

Cut me some slack, Macca.

It was only 8 when I said that.

Cut me some slack, Macca.

The ignorant are growing in numbers !

Edited January 2, 201312 yr by Macca

It was a fair opening post McQueen, and good topic.

Many from WA have been in 'issues', to say the least..

aggression is good for footy, with discipline, but not for the streets & bars.

There is agression and then there is stupidity. Not directing this comment toward Bennell but to the many WA boys who have had issues in bars.

Not knowing any facts about the Bennell situation but from experience sometimes these boys can't really help it once they are back with their families. Like LJ'S situation last year they often get caught up in something that is none of their own doing, they attempt to intervene in tribal/family fueds. As role models they do their best but like a lot of AFL players find at nightclubs there is always someone who wants to make a name for themselves, cheap shots etc.

No winners

Would the responses have been different if I left the sentence out about anticipating criticism? Possibly. It was WJ that fired back with a barb about the "white boys."

No to your first question and it wasn't a "barb" either but rather a fact that poor behaviour on the part of our footballers, especially involving alcohol is not defined by a person's colour or creed. To single out indigenous players for opprobrium when clearly the behaviour you described is also a problem with others comes within my definition of racism and further, I have to add that not saying so is dishonest and to describe people who acknowledge this as "ignorant" is shameful.

That is not to say that some indigenous players don't have issues related to their circumstances but I believe by and large that the AFL is doing a terrific job with its educational programmes and the employment of prominent persons as role models for their communities (however, like some others I do have a problem with Jason Mifsud's role at the AFL). People are always quick to mention the few who might go "off the rails" but you can't help but be impressed with the contributions of Chris Johnson, Michael Long (the bump on Troy Simmonds notwithstanding), Adam Goodes, Michael O'Loughlin and our own Aaron Davey.

I can go beyond the "stars" and talk about Isaac Weetra who was briefly on our list a few years ago and who I had the pleasure of meeting when he was at the club. A more intelligent and articulate young man, you would never meet and I doubt that he would ever do wheelies in a private school car park, consort with known criminals, get arrested twice on an overseas trip, dump on his former club, pee on a night club counter at 3am or become a self-confessed alcoholic (all of these are problems that require help as well). Instead, he was just one of now well over 200 indigenous footballers, the majority law abiding citizens despite their tragic history in this land, who played the game at the elite level.

And I wouldn't be throwing around statistics about the decline in their numbers because of the official figure of three indigenous players drafted and one redrafted in the 2012 AFL draft. These figures don't take into account three indigenous players taken as NT pre-draft selections Jed Anderson (Hawthorn), Jake Neade (Port Adelaide) and our own Dom Barry as well as rookies Brett Goodes (Bulldogs) and Zac Williams (GWS). The numbers might be down marginally but still well above the proportion of indigenous in the general population.

Everything I've heard about Dom Barry and the way he's settling in at the club has been positive. The story of Jed Anderson who has done it tough is quite inspirational - Hawks snap up Thunder's Anderson

It's a pity that people jump at the opportunity to accentuate the negatives but never look beyond what they want to see. Most of the time the answer is a matter of education and learning. Let's just hope that Harley Bennell learns his lesson from the past week or so as do Jeremy Howe and the Bay 13 boys. None of them are hardened criminals. They're all young men who have lots to learn from life irrespective of the pigmentation of their skins.

No to your first question and it wasn't a "barb" either but rather a fact that poor behaviour on the part of our footballers, especially involving alcohol is not defined by a person's colour or creed. To single out indigenous players for opprobrium when clearly the behaviour you described is also a problem with others comes within my definition of racism and further, I have to add that not saying so is dishonest and to describe people who acknowledge this as "ignorant" is shameful.

It's a pity that people jump at the opportunity to accentuate the negatives but never look beyond what they want to see. Most of the time the answer is a matter of education and learning. Let's just hope that Harley Bennell learns his lesson from the past week or so as do Jeremy Howe and the Bay 13 boys. None of them are hardened criminals. They're all young men who have lots to learn from life irrespective of the pigmentation of their skins.

Your immediate reaction painted me as a racist by mentioning "white boys" in your post and it was a poor comparison to the assaults which was also recognised by other posters. Whether you meant that or not who knows but it certainly struck a chord with the 11 other people who liked your post. Calling those posters ignorant was wrong and I wish to apologise to those people here and now.

Still, you wish to label me racist by your first paragraph above simply because it falls under your definition. I'm offended by this and would appreciate an apology of my own.

My original post was never intended to be of a racist nature. Racially, it was unavoidable by the fact that it was about indigenous players from WA. My other posts and those of others gave a sufficient overview of the problems here in WA with young indigenous.

Personally, I won't be entering into another topic relating to anything of the like for fear of repeat accusations and would caution other members to do the same.

Edited January 3, 201312 yr by McQueen

McQueen I'd give up trying to defend myself to these hyper politically correct types, anyone with a bit of sense knows you're intentions weren't to be racist.

Like LJ'S situation last year they often get caught up in something that is none of their own doing, they attempt to intervene in tribal/family fueds.

Semi off-topic, regarding LJ;

I was in Bali over new years and sat at a table at a NYE dinner at the hotel with a couple from Alice Springs; one a police officer the other a nurse. He happened to have responded to the emergency call on the night that LJ allegedly committed the offences. The nurse was working in emergency when the victims were brought in.

I won’t go into specifics of what was said, but it was such a pity to hear about Liam in that light.

Semi off-topic, regarding LJ;

I was in Bali over new years and sat at a table at a NYE dinner at the hotel with a couple from Alice Springs; one a police officer the other a nurse. He happened to have responded to the emergency call on the night that LJ allegedly committed the offences. The nurse was working in emergency when the victims were brought in.

I wont go into specifics of what was said, but it was such a pity to hear about Liam in that light.

sounds very similar to what i was told via a source in Alice.

Liam is in very hot water if my source is even half correct.

Is Dayle Garletts behaviour an worse than this?

I find violence more reprehensible than smoking weed .

I acknowledge ,however ,that top level players get baited by d!ckheads in the community when they go out.