There's an old saying Hannibal, "opinions are like ar--holes, everyone's got one".

I love the way Ollie plays, but we have Jimmy. I say support our players no matter what, especially the young ones making their way. These guys are the future of our Club, and with Roosy's direction, I stand by the MFC all the way. Like everyone here, I have been through the crap years, but you have to go through them to really appreciate the good ones. Jimmy, Jack, Christian, Dom and ournother Young Ones are the future and we better get behind them. If you don't like what we have, go to the Collingwood page Mate and stay the hell there. Don't need to see the spew from your mouth anymore.

This club had to draft some stars over the last 6-7 years in order to have a chance at winning a flag. And it had every opportunity. It has failed miserably. They blew it. Stars win flags. We don't have any. We haven't ever drafted a star. Many of us were rapt when zones finished, because we had crap zones. Finally we had a chance. There was going to be a level playing field. Our best draft picks have probably been Scott Thompson, Yze and James McDonald, who was a rookie. in nearly 30 years that's pathetic. The Febey's, among others, gave good service, but you get my drift. I don't plan on naming them all.

Our recent gold mine should have set this club up for a chance at a flag. It has been an unmitigated disaster. Maybe you don't care about a flag ?

So yes, as you say, we all have opinions, but I've just provided some facts. You can choose to "support" Jimmy, as I will if he ever warrants it, but I also recognise a club consumed with terrible decisions and a litany of disastrous decision making.

More disturbingly you don't seem to like debate or dissension. Why ? You say, "If you don't like what we have, go to the Collingwood page Mate and stay the hell there. Don't need to see the spew from your mouth anymore.".

It's only the weak that are concerned by differences of opinion.

You can choose to "support" Jimmy, as I will if he ever warrants it

He plays for the football team you claim to support doesn't he? He's played one season, recovering from hip surgery, in one of the all time terrible midfields, under one of the worst coaches in modern footy... How about you take a leaf out of Paul Roos' book and take the pressure off him, let him develop, and stop looking for a saviour in the young players.

But then, I suppose you know more about footy than Roos...

The Toumpas haters are going to look quite stupid in a couple of years.

...not only look stupid, but from the way they are carrying on, probably disappointed too.

Nothing has changed since I seen Ollie play under 18's, still dominates and is still exactly what we need.

I like to see Wines and Sloane dominate because they wanted to play for our club, they had faith in us - I wish we just returned the admiration.

This club had to draft some stars over the last 6-7 years in order to have a chance at winning a flag. And it had every opportunity. It has failed miserably. They blew it. Stars win flags. We don't have any. We haven't ever drafted a star. Many of us were rapt when zones finished, because we had crap zones. Finally we had a chance. There was going to be a level playing field. Our best draft picks have probably been Scott Thompson, Yze and James McDonald, who was a rookie. in nearly 30 years that's pathetic. The Febey's, among others, gave good service, but you get my drift. I don't plan on naming them all.

Our recent gold mine should have set this club up for a chance at a flag. It has been an unmitigated disaster. Maybe you don't care about a flag ?

So yes, as you say, we all have opinions, but I've just provided some facts. You can choose to "support" Jimmy, as I will if he ever warrants it, but I also recognise a club consumed with terrible decisions and a litany of disastrous decision making.

More disturbingly you don't seem to like debate or dissension. Why ? You say, "If you don't like what we have, go to the Collingwood page Mate and stay the hell there. Don't need to see the spew from your mouth anymore.".

It's only the weak that are concerned by differences of opinion.

Flag? What Era do you live in Dude? We have been a struggling side devoid of money for the best part of two decades. Granted, our drafting has left a bit to be desired in some cases, but sticking it to Toump because he hasn't won you a flag yet is 100% stupid. Your so called facts are plain dumb. Many Clubs make terrible decisions, but their fans still stick by them. You should try it Han. Scott Thompson left when he had the first opportunity. I don't blame him with some of the ridiculously stupid crap he would have heard fly from some of our so called supporters. You are the perfect example of what is wrong with society today. I think your called Gen Y for a reason. "Y aren't I the CEO yet, I have been here for two weeks now". Grow up, take your bat and ball and F__k Off. Go back to Collingwood mate.

It's only the weak that are concerned by differences of opinion....this is the only correct statement you've made in this thread. You are a weak person hiding behind your keyboard, trying to legitimise your lack of Footy nous with vitriol spewed at an unprecedented rate at a 19 year old kid who cannot defend himself against your scumbag opinion. It's Football Dude, no one is trying to steal your lollipop.

He plays for the football team you claim to support doesn't he? He's played one season, recovering from hip surgery, in one of the all time terrible midfields, under one of the worst coaches in modern footy... How about you take a leaf out of Paul Roos' book and take the pressure off him, let him develop, and stop looking for a saviour in the young players.

But then, I suppose you know more about footy than Roos...

I don't expect a saviour at all. It wouldn't worry me if he hadn't played a solitary game. I merely expect young players to have a crack. I expect a top 5 draft pick to put his head over it. My concern is that he doesn't.

Flag? What Era do you live in Dude? We have been a struggling side devoid of money for the best part of two decades. Granted, our drafting has left a bit to be desired in some cases, but sticking it to Toump because he hasn't won you a flag yet is 100% stupid. Your so called facts are plain dumb. Many Clubs make terrible decisions, but their fans still stick by them. You should try it Han. Scott Thompson left when he had the first opportunity. I don't blame him with some of the ridiculously stupid crap he would have heard fly from some of our so called supporters. You are the perfect example of what is wrong with society today. I think your called Gen Y for a reason. "Y aren't I the CEO yet, I have been here for two weeks now". Grow up, take your bat and ball and F__k Off. Go back to Collingwood mate.

It's only the weak that are concerned by differences of opinion....this is the only correct statement you've made in this thread. You are a weak person hiding behind your keyboard, trying to legitimise your lack of Footy nous with vitriol spewed at an unprecedented rate at a 19 year old kid who cannot defend himself against your scumbag opinion. It's Football Dude, no one is trying to steal your lollipop.

My apologies.

I gave you the credit for being coherent. Unfortunately I wasted time on a dope.

the recruiters who selected Toumpas haven't missed a beat anywhere else, Terlich, Hogan, Clisby, Tyson, Salem, Kennedy-Harris, Georgiou Matt Jones

Pretty decent track record, I am going to back Jimmy to become a very good player for us and not concern myself with a Port Adelaide player.

the recruiters who selected Toumpas haven't missed a beat anywhere else, Terlich, Hogan, Clisby, Tyson, Salem, Kennedy-Harris, Georgiou Matt Jones

Pretty decent track record, I am going to back Jimmy to become a very good player for us and not concern myself with a Port Adelaide player.

With respect - I again point to jumping the gun.

The only names you have mentioned that have provided anything is Terlich and Matt Jones - they have been serviceable but hardly a case to call the recruiters inspired.

The rest are just selections who have not proven the recruiters case either way.

With respect - I again point to jumping the gun.

The only names you have mentioned that have provided anything is Terlich and Matt Jones - they have been serviceable but hardly a case to call the recruiters inspired.

The rest are just selections who have not proven the recruiters case either way.

They have finished 3rd and 4th in our B&F coming from late picks, I am very happy with that, Clisby, Kent, and Kennedy-harris already show something pretty good

Look, I've established you like this LOL expression, but if you have anything meaningful to say let me know.

You will respond, nothing is more certain, so be coherent.

I think that laughter is very meaningful.

I gave you the chance to show some self reflection and you obsfucated.

I lol'd at you simply living out your life script.

The end.

Cue dismissive and snide remark...and close.

Good job people. That's a wrap.

They have finished 3rd and 4th in our B&F coming from late picks, I am very happy with that, Clisby, Kent, and Kennedy-harris already show something pretty good

Finishing 3rd and 4th in a team that could not beat time with a stick and won two games and lost numerous by 15+ goals is hardly a big wrap.

They would not be on the list of any other team in the competition.

Finishing 3rd and 4th in a team that could not beat time with a stick and won two games and lost numerous by 15+ goals is hardly a big wrap.

They would not be on the list of any other team in the competition.

I reckon Terlich would get a run elsewhere, Brisbane at one point rated him as our most damaging offensive player, granted Clark, and Dawes both didn't play that game and Howe was out of form bigtime

the recruiters who selected Toumpas haven't missed a beat anywhere else, Terlich, Hogan, Clisby, Tyson, Salem, Kennedy-Harris, Georgiou Matt Jones

Pretty decent track record, I am going to back Jimmy to become a very good player for us and not concern myself with a Port Adelaide player.

I am just waiting to hear from our regular negative soothsayers who will label the selection of Hogan as an "injury prone dud"

I am just waiting to hear from our regular negative soothsayers who will label the selection of Hogan as an "injury prone dud"

Mate, he just wait til the end of the year, if Boyd kicks more goals I am certain someone will comment that we picked the wrong one.

This from the Demonland poll prior to drafting. ("don't know's" make up the difference). For those having a slow maths day, Toumpas received more than double the votes that Wines did.

Who should we select?

1. Wines (67 votes [28.51%] - View)

2. Toumpas (147 votes [62.55%] - View)

Makes for interesting reading (if you're that way inclined):

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/

Finishing 3rd and 4th in a team that could not beat time with a stick and won two games and lost numerous by 15+ goals is hardly a big wrap.

They would not be on the list of any other team in the competition.

Terlich definitely would be on another list, Matt Jones wouldn't though, and probably shouldn't even be on ours.

They have finished 3rd and 4th in our B&F coming from late picks, I am very happy with that, Clisby, Kent, and Kennedy-harris already show something pretty good

Other than Jones and maybe Garland - somebody had to finish in the other places in our best fairest. Jones and Terlich were "consistent" and played some good football. Inspired draft choices ? Not yet.

As to the others - we were happy with what Gysberts showed to.

I am not saying that these were bad recruitments - I am suggesting keeping your powder dry until they actually start showing something over 20-30 games.

This from the Demonland poll prior to drafting. ("don't know's" make up the difference). For those having a slow maths day, Toumpas received more than double the votes that Wines did.

Who should we select?

1. Wines (67 votes [28.51%] - View)

2. Toumpas (147 votes [62.55%] - View)

Makes for interesting reading (if you're that way inclined):

http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/

Thats because in everything I read from numerous scribes and talent watchers - Toumpas was rated higher than Wines.

Someone suggested that recruiters are meant to have foresight. I suggest that the last 5 - 8 drafts be looked at and see how many players were not selected where the experts suggested they would get picked. (two come to mind - Aish and Rich).

Many were hot to trot on Wines because nobody thought that Toumpas would still be available at our pick. Two days before the draft when it was rumoured that Toumpas would fall to our pick it was suggested by a few of "conspiracy" of letting us get Toumpas as part of the whole Hogan pick deal.

Salem is known for being hard at the footy. We won't see the same issues we see with Toumpas and Watts. Salem's biggest knock is not winning enough footy.

Based on an earlier assessment of yours, does this mean that Salem is now similarly doomed?

"Firstly, for the poster that asked whether Toumpas was soft, or not the answer is no. Don't you guys have Foxtel ? Also, he captained SA at the championships. You don't make a soft player your state captain - unless your name is Bryce Gibbs. OK forget that last bit.

McQueen: I'm very happy to have a quality big bodied inside mid at the club, but I'd prefer Toumpas purely because he's a better player."

(http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/32253-poll-wines-or-toumpas/?p=668450)

Hannibal - I need clarification

"If Toumpas was available and we went for Wines I'd be astonished. "

Why would you be astonished ?

Thats because in everything I read from numerous scribes and talent watchers - Toumpas was rated higher than Wines.

Someone suggested that recruiters are meant to have foresight. I suggest that the last 5 - 8 drafts be looked at and see how many players were not selected where the experts suggested they would get picked. (two come to mind - Aish and Rich).

Many were hot to trot on Wines because nobody thought that Toumpas would still be available at our pick. Two days before the draft when it was rumoured that Toumpas would fall to our pick it was suggested by a few of "conspiracy" of letting us get Toumpas as part of the whole Hogan pick deal.

You've touched on an important point - why should we care about what a body of recruiters think? It's all about what Melbourne need, not the overall rating of recruiters with no association to Melbourne.

I'd like to check out he stats of how many in&under / inside clearances Melbourne were winning in the year or 2 before the Toumpas/Wines recruitment. I suspect we were always massively dependent on Maloney for clearances. Regardless of Maloney's attitude,, that should have raised a red flag.

Anyone know where to find stats on centre clearances by team, by year? My gut tells me we were in trouble years ago, not just last year.You could say that this is why MFC tried so hard to hold onto Scully, but really .. the mere fact MFC were throwing so much money on the table should also have indicated how short of personnel we were for in&under / inside clearances.

Going for Toumpas over Wines never made sense to me. You don't get a good player and say "I'm sure we'll find something for him". That's the sort of thing we've done with Watts, not to the benefit of his career and ultimately we all want players to reach their potential, right?

Of course Roosey and the current team has addressed this and I'm not looking for a witch hunt, but I can't help help but wonder what the various processes have been over the years.

You've touched on an important point - why should we care about what a body of recruiters think? It's all about what Melbourne need, not the overall rating of recruiters with no association to Melbourne.

Simply - because prevailing wisdom is you pick the BEST player available - if there is little difference between two players available at your pick then you pick to need.

Cook was taken well before his rating but was picked for a need - we needed a CHF. We wanted running half backs - we picked Strauss. We needed clearance specialist - we picked Gysberts. All picked well above their rating

These are the very reasons why you care about what talent experts think.

( the only exception is when you start to look at picks in the 30's onwards - I am not adverse to taking a punt with later draft selections)

Going for Toumpas over Wines never made sense to me. You don't get a good player and say "I'm sure we'll find something for him".

Always made sense to me at the time.

We needed midfielders - we needed in and under midfielders, we need outside/spreading midfielders.

Toumpas was always rated higher than Wines. I will even be as bold to suggest that Toumpas made more sense - whilst we were certainly lacking grunt we were lacking "class" even more.

You've touched on an important point - why should we care about what a body of recruiters think? It's all about what Melbourne need, not the overall rating of recruiters with no association to Melbourne.

I'd like to check out he stats of how many in&under / inside clearances Melbourne were winning in the year or 2 before the Toumpas/Wines recruitment. I suspect we were always massively dependent on Maloney for clearances. Regardless of Maloney's attitude,, that should have raised a red flag.

Anyone know where to find stats on centre clearances by team, by year? My gut tells me we were in trouble years ago, not just last year.You could say that this is why MFC tried so hard to hold onto Scully, but really .. the mere fact MFC were throwing so much money on the table should also have indicated how short of personnel we were for in&under / inside clearances.

Going for Toumpas over Wines never made sense to me. You don't get a good player and say "I'm sure we'll find something for him". That's the sort of thing we've done with Watts, not to the benefit of his career and ultimately we all want players to reach their potential, right?

Of course Roosey and the current team has addressed this and I'm not looking for a witch hunt, but I can't help help but wonder what the various processes have been over the years.

Nathan.

Agree with all of this Nathan, you cannot have too many quality in and under mids! Never! What our recruiting dept failed to see I believe was that

1 You must get the infield clearance first

2 Outside run becomes very redundant if you don't!

What my main beef about Toumpas is he is neither quick or damaging enough, nor does he show much appetite for the ball via some two way gut running! prerequisites for outsider mids.

Had we went for Wines then we may not have gone for the mids we did this preseason and if that was the case we could have picked up another KPF OR something else.

FWIW I would rather develop Jack Watts or Christian Salem as the outside mids.